Ens. Cameron Kinley

helmsdown said:
This kind of thing undoes a lot of what the Army Navy ads have so masterfully done.

Ad for the Army Navy Game

“When you watch your contemporaries indulging the urge for material gain, comfort, and personal advancement, your choice will seem hard...Never forget, however, that the battle for freedom takes many forms."
John F. Kennedy
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I rest my case. This is what people care about.
 
Why is this considered bad PR for the Navy? I would think allowing them to play
would. The government just spent a gazillion dollars subsidizing the NFL instead of preparing an officer. I'm sure plenty of graduates would rather spend time doing something else not-so-academic or military related for some time after graduation.
 
20USNA23 said:
While everyone has (and is entitled to) their own opinion about this -- as a Mid, I absolutely feel crushed for Cam (as I do for Charlie and last year for Noah.)

For those who haven't lived on the yard the past couple of years, you may not fully understand - and it would be hard to understate -- how signficant, impactful and positive Cam's everyday presence has been -- and I don't mean on the football field or even at graduation & commissioning.

He is a tremendous leader and even more specifically, a transformative ambassador for USNA. What gets lost here is not only the massive PR upside of his story potentially playing out in the NFL, but that this has truly turned into a really negative, national PR event - a testament to genuinly how positive, Cam's story is and can be.

And just so everyone is clear -- Cam never expressed any interest or intent of getting out of his service obligation at all -- just delaying it while simultaneously, serving as a defacto USNA brand ambassador while he pursued his other childhood dream of playing on Sundays and then, serving his IW committment after his Sunday playing days came to an end (whether at the end of rookie camp/OTA's or in a few years.) But that's just my opinion.

***

More importantly -- and as always, Capt MJ is beyond wise -- and I actually think her idea of the DOD setting aside a tiny percentage of annual billets (per Academy) for SA grads who want to pursue professional sports may be the best path forward in capturing the upside -- while remaining true to the larger, most important mission.

By way of direct analogy, it would not be unlike other, restricted line billets -- and in many ways, very specifically like service selecting Med Corps.

Each year, 8-to-12 graduating USNA seniors are permitted to pursue their medical education directly upon graduation from USNA.

Most Mids know up-front (or at least before 2-for-7) that this is a long-shot and that nothing is guaranteed; the odds are stacked against you. And like football, most Mids know that if they habor dreams to go directly to med school after college - that attending a civlian university (versus an SA) makes a ton more sense. Those that do choose to consider Med Corps also learn early on that there is a very capable internal committee of faculty and staff within USNA who select who gets chosen based on OOM, CPQR, MCAT scores etc.

Essentially, Mids apply for the Med Corp billet late in their 2/C year -- essentially getting permission from USNA to apply to medical school during their senior year.

Mids who are permitted to apply -- and then get into med school -- end-up earning the billet and go on to attend either one of the civilian medical schools that they were admitted into or attend USUHS (in Bethesda.) To be clear the USNA committee doesn't recommend or permit kids who have zero chance of getting into medical school to apply for the billet -- analagous to letting the handful of legitimate professional sport aspirants who are likely to be drafted or sign free agent contracts go through that process (draft, free agent workouts etc.)

Back on the med school front, in both instances, additional service time is accrued on top of the normal five years -- usually a year for each year of med school -- but for the four years of medical school -- they live as civilians (at least those attending civilian medical schools vs. those attending USUHS) even though they have graduated and commissioned from USNA.

Per Capt MJ's suggestion, setting up something analagous to this (a more formal, restricted line position for Mids who aspire (and possess the ability to play professionally) could make a ton of sense. Embedded in this would be strong vetting, perhaps a unique set of obligations that go with the billet and even perhaps, longer service time post the delay during their playing days.

Like everything, there will be elements to this program that would be inherently subjective and challenging to administer -- and I definitely don't have all of the answers.

But Capt MJ's suggestion would at least lead to a policy and path that could be more evenly and programatically applied and known by all up-front. This scenario could again, capture and in fact, truly leverage a lot of the PR upside and make the process far more equitable, less controversial and most of all, clear for everyone (Mids, fans, proponents and detractors etc.)
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The Navy needs physicians and scientists it is not comparable to joining the NFL as a player. I don't understand if this young man is such a positive influence and encouraging others why would he make public remarks like he is a victim. Doing this publicly only causes division.
 
lipton_hot_tea said:
The Navy needs physicians and scientists it is not comparable to joining the NFL as a player. I don't understand if this young man is such a positive influence and encouraging others why would he make public remarks like he is a victim. Doing this publicly only causes division.
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Lipton_hot_tea -- appreciate your perspective; feel compelled to respond since you quoted my post, but I promise, not trying to provoke a debate or be argumentative in anyway and recognize respectfully, that you and others may feel differently.

Couple of quick thoughts:

(1) Navy actually doesn't technically need or to a large extent, even want physicians or scientists as immediate gradautes from USNA -- that's not the mission of USNA and why those roles are classified as restricted line versus unrestricted.

The mission of USNA is to graduate Naval Officers who commission as SWOs, Aviators, Marines, NSW (EOD/Seals), Subs etc. This is why the #'s of graduating/commissioning Mids going into restricted line roles in any given year is so tiny as a percentage of each graduating class and as importantly, why any Mid's actual academic major at USNA has essentially no bearing on their service selection/ascension.

The analogy I and others drew to the Med Corp billet/selection process was simply one (of many) suggestions (none perfect) that have been floated on how USNA and as importantly, Big Navy, could potentially deal with this issue (if it even wants to) more programatically going forward. I think we can all agree, no matter on which side of this debate you fall on, a great story about a great Mid has turned into an unnecessary, national, negative PR event.

(2) I would also urge you to go back and watch in their totality, any of the longer-form video interviews Cam has given the media.

At least to me -- and I realize this is just my personal opinion and all are entitled to their own -- Cam comes across as respectful, super positive about his time at USNA and the Navy, his future in it, and at least to me, he's explicitly working hard not to come across as a victim or create division. In fact, he's gone out of his way to talk about how he wants to continue to serve as an ambassador, encouraging more kids to pursue academic excellence and military service.

In so many of those interviews, he shares the relationship with his grandfather who served for 20+ years as a Navy Master Chief and how it inspired him to want to serve; he talks about the dream he expressed in a middle school project about attending USNA, playing football and serving as an officer; he has also clearly stated he is not owed anything or an explanation and he has been 100% consistent that he's only looking to defer his service obligation while he tries to pursue his other childhood dream of playing NFL football. Importantly, this was a possibility that was an option when he signed his 2-for-7 contract and remains an option under current DOD directive, if approved by the Acting SECNAV, much like Malcolm Perry's package was approved last year.

What Cam does say is that he would like to understand why this decision was made while the other SA's permitted their most recent grads to defer their service but again, he's been overtly clear and has stated multiple times that he knows he is not owed any explanation.

I can only share with you what I've seen and experienced first hand on the yard -- Cam has been and continues to be, a genuinely selfless, postive leader and role model - never a victim or a source of division, true even today as he navigates what must be a challenging time.

Thanks for reading.
 
20USNA23 said:
Lipton_hot_tea -- appreciate your perspective; feel compelled to respond since you quoted my post, but I promise, not trying to provoke a debate or be argumentative in anyway and recognize respectfully, that you and others may feel differently.

Couple of quick thoughts:

(1) Navy actually doesn't technically need or to a large extent, even want physicians or scientists as immediate gradautes from USNA -- that's not the mission of USNA and why those roles are classified as restricted line versus unrestricted.

The mission of USNA is to graduate Naval Officers who commission as SWOs, Aviators, Marines, NSW (EOD/Seals), Subs etc. This is why the #'s of graduating/commissioning Mids going into restricted line roles in any given year is so tiny as a percentage of each graduating class and as importantly, why any Mid's actual academic major at USNA has essentially no bearing on their service selection/ascension.

The analogy I and others drew to the Med Corp billet/selection process was simply one (of many) suggestions (none perfect) that have been floated on how USNA and as importantly, Big Navy, could potentially deal with this issue (if it even wants to) more programatically going forward. I think we can all agree, no matter on which side of this debate you fall on, a great story about a great Mid has turned into an unnecessary, national, negative PR event.

(2) I would also urge you to go back and watch in their totality, any of the longer-form video interviews Cam has given the media.

At least to me -- and I realize this is just my personal opinion and all are entitled to their own -- Cam comes across as respectful, super positive about his time at USNA and the Navy, his future in it, and at least to me, he's explicitly working hard not to come across as a victim or create division. In fact, he's gone out of his way to talk about how he wants to continue to serve as an ambassador, encouraging more kids to pursue academic excellence and military service.

In so many of those interviews, he shares the relationship with his grandfather who served for 20+ years as a Navy Master Chief and how it inspired him to want to serve; he talks about the dream he expressed in a middle school project about attending USNA, playing football and serving as an officer; he has also clearly stated he is not owed anything or an explanation and he has been 100% consistent that he's only looking to defer his service obligation while he tries to pursue his other childhood dream of playing NFL football. Importantly, this was a possibility that was an option when he signed his 2-for-7 contract and remains an option under current DOD directive, if approved by the Acting SECNAV, much like Malcolm Perry's package was approved last year.

What Cam does say is that he would like to understand why this decision was made while the other SA's permitted their most recent grads to defer their service but again, he's been overtly clear and has stated multiple times that he knows he is not owed any explanation.

I can only share with you what I've seen and experienced first hand on the yard -- Cam has been and continues to be, a genuinely selfless, postive leader and role model - never a victim or a source of division, true even today as he navigates what must be a challenging time.

Thanks for reading.
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Very thoughtful and thorough response. I appreciate your perspective.
 
.
Do you love it so much that you would be willing to do it for Free ... I think that should be the New test.

So, if you want to defer your service obligation to help out some outfit build new tools to fight Cyber Criminals, or help some outfit invent the next level of autonomous AI software, or maybe join some traveling Ax Throwing show ... you have to do it for Free ... except that you can be compensated for housing, food, clothing, and medical expenses etc. ....

The value of your services to these organizations should be donated to the greater good in some way, and it could ultimately be some kind of annuity/equity trust arrangement where the maturity has no end possibly.

Then after you are done, you go back and serve out your military obligation.
.
 
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20USNA23 said:
(2) I would also urge you to go back and watch in their totality, any of the longer-form video interviews Cam has given the media.
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What I fail to understand is WHY is talking to the press even happening? It is extremely bad practice and a lack of professionalism to undermine the chain of command in the media. If service was TRULY as equal or more important than pro football, it should not have been aired. For arguments sake, if the media leak wasn’t from Cam, his agent, or someone on his behalf…instead of conducting interviews, a short statement stating he would have liked to play football, that the chain of command made a decision, he fully respects it, embraces it and is moving on because he is looking forward to serving as an officer and won’t be conducting any interviews because the focus is now on his Naval career, we might be in a different place. The press might have seen it as his personal wishes to move on and drop it. However, there is the NFL and NFL players association trying to get involved in a decision they probably shouldn’t be. Based on what I have read there is hope for a Hail Mary to reverse the decision, which continues to undermine the original decision!

If Cam wanted a reason for why the waiver was denied, then he should have utilized the chain of command, not the media.

The bottom line, throwing this into the media created more problems and undermined the chain of command. The best course of action should have been to completely downplay it and move on. For MIDN and future MIDN, if YOU made a command decision and had someone air it in the press or seniors in the chain of command, how would you feel?
 
usnabgo08 said:
What I fail to understand is WHY is talking to the press even happening? It is extremely bad practice and a lack of professionalism to undermine the chain of command in the media. If service was TRULY as equal or more important than pro football, it should not have been aired. For arguments sake, if the media leak wasn’t from Cam, his agent, or someone on his behalf…instead of conducting interviews, a short statement stating he would have liked to play football, that the chain of command made a decision, he fully respects it, embraces it and is moving on because he is looking forward to serving as an officer and won’t be conducting any interviews because the focus is now on his Naval career, we might be in a different place. The press might have seen it as his personal wishes to move on and drop it. However, there is the NFL and NFL players association trying to get involved in a decision they probably shouldn’t be. Based on what I have read there is hope for a Hail Mary to reverse the decision, which continues to undermine the original decision!

If Cam wanted a reason for why the waiver was denied, then he should have utilized the chain of command, not the media.

The bottom line, throwing this into the media created more problems and undermined the chain of command. The best course of action should have been to completely downplay it and move on. For MIDN and future MIDN, if YOU made a command decision and had someone air it in the press or seniors in the chain of command, how would you feel?
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Yes this part smells REALLY bad. Lots of talk, but not walking the walk. His true colors showed in his first written statement. Now he is walking that back. That’s how it looks to me. A PR thing. No doubt, he is an eloquent speaker, but if he truly felt how he speaks in these interviews, he would shut all of this down. Including the race piece thrown out there recently...as his baseball counterpart, in a similar situation, is in the same boat. Cam could stop all this.

Remember when a certain person in charge of an aircraft carrier went outside the chain of command, regarding Covid, to get results, and what happened to him? And that was a more noble cause.

Part of all this, imo, is the ‘worship’ surrounding football... But that a whole other discussion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
I don't 100% trust media interviews but I did take your recommendation and watch a full interview. I also take the word of someone from real life much more than a media interview. Watching it though I still think he is portraying himself as a victim. It seems very immature at best.

Another part of this that turns my stomach is him talking about the military taking away his childhood dream.

For his future how would others in a cyber team trust him if this is how he operates over football? I've seen others do things like this in other groups (not military) and they continue to be trouble and cause chaos. The worst part is that they do very little for the group but it is like always drama. They are often successful in getting their way because for whatever reason many people often take the first side they hear instead of being impartial.

BTW I'm not opposed to going to the media when the powers that be won't resolve something and the welfare of a vulnerable population is at stake or there is a serious injustice but this is not that.
 
20USNA23 said:
Lipton_hot_tea -- appreciate your perspective; feel compelled to respond since you quoted my post, but I promise, not trying to provoke a debate or be argumentative in anyway and recognize respectfully, that you and others may feel differently.

Couple of quick thoughts:

(1) Navy actually doesn't technically need or to a large extent, even want physicians or scientists as immediate gradautes from USNA -- that's not the mission of USNA and why those roles are classified as restricted line versus unrestricted.

The mission of USNA is to graduate Naval Officers who commission as SWOs, Aviators, Marines, NSW (EOD/Seals), Subs etc. This is why the #'s of graduating/commissioning Mids going into restricted line roles in any given year is so tiny as a percentage of each graduating class and as importantly, why any Mid's actual academic major at USNA has essentially no bearing on their service selection/ascension.

The analogy I and others drew to the Med Corp billet/selection process was simply one (of many) suggestions (none perfect) that have been floated on how USNA and as importantly, Big Navy, could potentially deal with this issue (if it even wants to) more programatically going forward. I think we can all agree, no matter on which side of this debate you fall on, a great story about a great Mid has turned into an unnecessary, national, negative PR event.

(2) I would also urge you to go back and watch in their totality, any of the longer-form video interviews Cam has given the media.

At least to me -- and I realize this is just my personal opinion and all are entitled to their own -- Cam comes across as respectful, super positive about his time at USNA and the Navy, his future in it, and at least to me, he's explicitly working hard not to come across as a victim or create division. In fact, he's gone out of his way to talk about how he wants to continue to serve as an ambassador, encouraging more kids to pursue academic excellence and military service.

In so many of those interviews, he shares the relationship with his grandfather who served for 20+ years as a Navy Master Chief and how it inspired him to want to serve; he talks about the dream he expressed in a middle school project about attending USNA, playing football and serving as an officer; he has also clearly stated he is not owed anything or an explanation and he has been 100% consistent that he's only looking to defer his service obligation while he tries to pursue his other childhood dream of playing NFL football. Importantly, this was a possibility that was an option when he signed his 2-for-7 contract and remains an option under current DOD directive, if approved by the Acting SECNAV, much like Malcolm Perry's package was approved last year.

What Cam does say is that he would like to understand why this decision was made while the other SA's permitted their most recent grads to defer their service but again, he's been overtly clear and has stated multiple times that he knows he is not owed any explanation.

I can only share with you what I've seen and experienced first hand on the yard -- Cam has been and continues to be, a genuinely selfless, postive leader and role model - never a victim or a source of division, true even today as he navigates what must be a challenging time.

Thanks for reading.
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I won't repeat my opinion about delaying one's service obligation to play pro sports.

I will say that I like your first instinct to support a comrade, but your hagiographic portrait of Cam screams out that he is needed in the fleet.
 
This thread is interesting to read, I do enjoy reading the varying views, but definitely triggers my annoyance with the way athletes are treated in the first place - like godly beings. They get out of a lot of responsibilities and they automatically get four points just for being an athlete - all other midshipmen don't get those four points handed to them. To compare a med corp hopeful to an athlete (mind you- this guy has agents - what's that about) is preposterous. A med corp hopeful kills themselves academically knowing that only 8-12 will only be selected, all the while doing the "not college" stuff. Sorry - but if his dream was to be in the NFL - then his path choice should have been different 5.5 years ago, not now after attending the academy. I hope he finds peace in the decision SECNAV made - since he has agents - I would suspect he thought this was going to turn out very differently. I do agree though - a blanket policy should be made with all SAs on this going forward to let those applying as seniors in HS know what is and isn't allowed - grey areas never work out for anyone.
 
Being a retired Officer, I always looked forward to the Army-Navy games. Mainly due to the sacrifice each player makes in their obligation to the Nation. Since exceptions have been implemented through the years I have lost total interest in the games. Serve 1st and then do whatever you wish.

I haven't heard the Ens mention the middie ball player whose request was denied as well in turning pro in any TV interview. Did he mistakenly forget this one simple point in attempting to reach his dream in making possible millions in football? And, did he know this before going public? Perhaps we will never know.

Does anyone feel his Navy career will be seriously impacted by his superiors? Or was it just a junior Officer mistake in going public with a broken heart?

By the way, is the Ens a restricted Line Officer in his career field?
 
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Army Al said:
delete
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Yes, Info Warfare and its internal specialties is a Navy Restricted Line community, not Unrestricted Line (surface, aviation, subs, SEAL, etc.) or Staff Corps (JAG, Medical, Dental, Nurse, Med Service Corps, CEC, Supply, etc.), along with HR, PAO and so on. [I often respond for general readership new to Navy Officer specialties.]
 
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