Ens. Cameron Kinley

To me the flaw with the medical corps analogy is a military necessity/requirement to commission medical corps officers. What is the military necessity to have individuals go into pro sports? Obviously, there isn’t a clearly defined one…it is why I mention that any decision should be data/factual driven…cost-benefit. Using a process similar to the USNA medical corps officers selection/recommendation could help with consistency, but not sure it addresses the “why” of letting athletes defer or early out.

I think the default DON policy should be serving the commitment, but a clause that special requests COULD be entertained. That way it is always clear that there is no guarantee….then you don’t have to worry about swaying DOD policy and if during one year there is a necessity/need to allow some to go pro, then that is entertained through a special request. Typically policy can always be made more stringent down the chain of command.
 
Capt MJ said:
www.cnn.com

Navy denies football team captain's request to delay service and try to play in the NFL | CNN

The US Navy has denied a request by football team captain Cameron Kinley to delay his military service and try to play in the National Football League.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

There is a changing landscape view on these decisions, swinging from one precedent to another over the years, and to add to the fog, widely varying decisions among SAs in any given year. When a policy is apparently unevenly applied in any given year across SAs, it’s hard to figure out the decision process.

I personally feel the policy in place when a mid or cadet signs their obligation papers at the start of their 2/c year should be the policy that applies at their graduation.

There are some who would draw a hard line and not allow it at all. I do like it, though, when announcers comment on a player’s military service, vet status or SA background. It’s good PR. I was happy to see USMA grad Alejandro Villanueva join the Baltimore Ravens last month; I think of him as a fellow vet.

Perhaps a hard (a tiny one) percentage of the class should be set as an upper limit for DOD SA grads who want to play professional sports, along with required Reserve commitment, and agreed to among the SAs.
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To be clear, I only borrowed the percentage of class/no guarantees/up to X mids methodology here, not making any analogy between a pro sport path and Med Corps path.
 
20USNA23 said:
He is a tremendous leader and even more specifically, a transformative ambassador for USNA. What gets lost here is not only the massive PR upside of his story potentially playing out in the NFL, but that this has truly turned into a really negative, national PR event - a testament to genuinly how positive, Cam's story is and can be.
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When the DSs are watching TV, it's generally a sporting event and there are a significant number of military recruiting commercials. A quick search found "The US Army has struggled to recruit new soldiers and prove the value of its $400 million annual advertising budget in recent years." To @Capt MJ suggestion of a few deferred service slots, having a player on the field from a SA as the announcers discuss their background and future service to their country may inspire someone to explore the military.
 
NJROTC-CC said:
My personal opinion is that our nation would be better served if all the SA’s competed in NCAA Division III instead of Division I. A slightly different, but related, topic. Very few Division III athletes go on to pro sports

I agree with @Heatherg21 “if you wanted a shot at an NFL career, you could have selected a different path. SA path has pretty clearly defined requirements upon commissioning.”
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^This x 1000.

The University of Nebraska just broke ground on a new $155 million "practice" facility for a football team with an 11-30 record under a coach making $5m per year with a perpetual 2 year roll over.

Do you really want to compete in that environment? I don't ask that from the standpoint of being able to compete on the field. Rather is this the environment that represents the ethos of the military? If the ethos is spending money, then I guess the answer is yes.

It is simply embarrassing that the brass, alumni and even cadets/mids buy into this notion that anyone outside of the tribe really gives a damn about this or that poster boy/girl form an SA other than the fact that they were committed to service to the nation over their own self-service. That condition certainly doesn't apply in the cases mentioned in this thread.

It is only going to get worse as college athletes begin to get paid, which they will. I can't wait to see how the lines get drawn for SA athletes.

www.cnbc.com

Morgan Stanley has a new pipeline into college athlete compensation

Morgan Stanley will provide financial resources in an agreement with Altius Sports as the firms position for upcoming NIL legislation on the collegiate level.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
 
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NJROTC-CC said:
I also like @capt MJ’s idea of establishing a limited number of slots for exemptions for pro athletes.
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It was inevitable that @Capt MJ would finally write something that I disagree with.

How many more exceptions, carve outs, special situations can this society take?

The taxpayers paid for their education for the express purpose of them becoming Military officers. These candidates sold the story to their MOC's , they wrote about it in their essays, they told anyone who would listen...up until the moment they thought there was the slimmest of hope for a professional career.
 
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20USNA23 said:
For those who haven't lived on the yard the past couple of years, you may not fully understand - and it would be hard to understate -- how signficant, impactful and positive Cam's everyday presence has been -- and I don't mean on the football field or even at graduation & commissioning.

He is a tremendous leader and even more specifically, a transformative ambassador for USNA. What gets lost here is not only the massive PR upside of his story potentially playing out in the NFL, but that this has truly turned into a really negative, national PR event - a testament to genuinly how positive, Cam's story is and can be.

And just so everyone is clear -- Cam never expressed any interest or intent of getting out of his service obligation at all -- just delaying it while simultaneously, serving as a defacto USNA brand ambassador while he pursued his other childhood dream of playing on Sundays and then, serving his IW committment after his Sunday playing days came to an end (whether at the end of rookie camp/OTA's or in a few years.) But that's just my opinion.
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If Cam is half the inspiring leader you make him out to be, especially given the difficulties of the past year+, then he would be much more valuable on a ship as a leader of the swabs and as a positive example to other JO's, than to the NFL.
 
cb7893 said:
It was inevitable that @Capt MJ would finally write something that I disagree with.

How many more exceptions, carve outs, special situations can this society take?

The taxpayers paid for their education for the express purpose of them becoming Military officers. These candidates sold the story to their MOC's , they wrote about it in their essays, they told anyone who would listen...up until the moment they thought there was the slimmest of hope for a professional career.
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I’m really on the fence. I’d be equally happy with No Exceptions OR a small percentage, I just want a decision made, consistent policy agreed on across SAs and any commissioning program, and abided by, and the issue put to bed.
 
Kinley speaks publicly. Watch the interview. What a well-spoken young man. AND he quoted @Capt MJ 😂 at about the 6:00 mark “control the controllables”.

wjla.com

Going public, Cameron Kinley hoping for 'a miracle' to play in the NFL

A controversy is brewing in Annapolis. A U. S. Naval Academy football player wants to play in the NFL, but the Secretary of the Navy denied his request. On Tuesday, 7News sports anchor Scott Abraham had a one on one conversation with team captain and class president Cameron Kinley. The 2021...
wjla.com wjla.com
 
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Capt MJ said:
I’m really on the fence. I’d be equally happy with No Exceptions OR a small percentage, I just want a decision made, consistent policy agreed on across SAs and any commissioning program, and abided by, and the issue put to bed.
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Yes I agree..a consistent policy from above... is that so hard?...a bridge too far for superiors?...As Miranda Priestly would say, "Am I reaching for the stars here?";)
As an aside..."Florals...for Spring?...groundbreaking...."
 
Drafted then service commitment is deferred or altered. Free Agent signee then service commitment is honored.

Devils Advocate: Where does it stop? Do you say the same thing for Pro Beach Volleyball player? What about a Pro Corn Hole player?
 
What if he was badly injured while playing in the NFL and that ultimately disqualified him from ever serving his 5 year commitment to The Navy?
 
EVERYONE has GREAT points. I feel for the new grads who aren't granted exceptions, in the same breath I feel like after two years at a SA, when one takes the "Affirmation Oath" they know what they are committing to, and to grant "exceptions" for the better athletes takes away from all those others who have great majors and could make tons more money if allowed to go Reserve.

If someone attends a SA because "They Want To Serve", why does money or fame change that? Now if they attend a SA for free school, and a Pro Sports career (but can't get a D1 Full Ride), then maybe the selection process and "recruited Athletes" needs to be further examined.

There is always ROTC, which can and does Commission "Reserve" Officers. Then a grad could indeed play pro sports without problem...Just Saying :)
 
I was at USNA during the time of both Napoleon McCallum and David Robinson. At the time, there was no official policy on what to do with exceptional athletes. Keep in mind that both served first, then went on to their professional careers ( Napoleon also played during leave while on active duty). If memory serves, they both did 2 years AD and completed their commitment in the reserves. McCallum had a decent NFL career before it was cut short by horrific injury. Robinson went on to be one of the greatest NBA players of all time. And of course, Staubach and McConkey completed their entire commitment before playing full time.

While I agree with CAPT MJ that it would be nice if there were a consistent policy across SAs, there often are disparate policies among services on all sorts of topics, so that might not happen. There should be consistent policies in the same service. This year, there was (the baseball player and football player). However, just a few years ago, Keenan Reynolds was allowed to go directly to the NFL. So, inconsistent within the USN from year to year, possibly due to change in Administration. That also happens in the military.

My personal view is that every midshipman should 100% expect to complete 5 years AD. If someone thinks he has talent to play professional sports and that is his primary desire (note, so far only male athletes have been involved in these discussions), then he should move on after youngster year -- go to a school where he can fulfill his dream of professional sports. IMHO, you can't stay at USNA having signed the 2 for 7 and then complain when you actually have to complete the obligation for which you signed up. Life is full of choices -- this is one of them.

Someone above analogized professional sports to medical school. Don't understand that at all. Would-be doctors go on to the school that the military wants them to attend to learn skills that they will then use in the their military careers. Deferring their USNA obligation actually "hurts" them in that, even if they attend the military medical school (USUHS) and stay on AD, the 5 years from USNA is tacked on to their med school service obligation.

There is also the question of why an exception for professional athletes vs. any other exceptional talent or desire. What if someone is a great opera singer and wanted to perform for a few years before AD? Or someone who said, "I'd like to go to law school / seminary on my own and then start my commitment." Or, "I'd like to take a year off to climb Mount Everest."

Certainly disappointing for the individuals involved, but the decision shouldn't come as a surprise.
 
usna1985 said:
IMHO, you can't stay at USNA having signed the 2 for 7 and then complain when you actually have to complete the obligation for which you signed up. Life is full of choices -- this is one of them.
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This about says it all, doesn’t it? All SAs are rooted in commitment. That commitment is affirmed on R-Day/I-Day and it’s reaffirmed at 2/7 signing. Every cadet/mid goes in with their eyes wide open and understands the consequences of what they’re committing to. The problem is that fluid policies over the years — and perhaps uneven application of those policies — seem to have created false or misunderstood expectations.

We often say here: “The needs of the [insert any branch] come first.” So I believe the SAs should be true to that, i.e. “Sign 2/7 with the full expectation that you must fulfill your service obligation, subject to the needs of the [insert any branch].” Now, to use David Robinson as an example, the Navy may say “We need you to play a prominent public-affairs role to help with recruiting and image. Therefore, we’re assigning you to pursue an NBA career.” From there, arrangements could be made for him to straddle the Navy and NBA, i.e. serving while playing.

This “default is service” with flexibility to “meet the needs” avoids an ambiguous blanket policy that sets false expectations. Not any or every professional athlete has PR value. Robinson and Napoleon McCallum, certainly. Malcolm Perry, maybe, as he seems capable of getting some playing time. An undrafted football player or a fringe baseball prospect toiling in the low minors or an athlete playing a relatively obscure sport — probably not, because there’s not much PR value there to “meet the needs.”

Nothing against Cameron Kinley. He seems like a terrific person, was a standout mid, and will probably be a top-notch officer. But he ultimately must fulfill his obligation consistent with the needs of the Navy. And right now, they don’t seem to need him pursuing a longshot NFL spot.
 
Seems to me the issue is , does the SA actually need for some reason, to have these grads go into pro sports ?

Does having them go pro increase the number or quality of admissions for the Navy or the USNA or benefit the academy in some other way?

Figure that out first

once that is figured out then decide if the navy should treat a first team all American footballer, who might be a first round draft choice, the same way they treat a free agent signee , who has little chance to make the pro team in the same way.

Life does not normally work that way.

In the end the deciding issue should be——what is best for the academy.

as far as all USNA sports being D3 sports——No No No
 
MidCakePa said:
This about says it all, doesn’t it? All SAs are rooted in commitment. That commitment is affirmed on R-Day/I-Day and it’s reaffirmed at 2/7 signing. Every cadet/mid goes in with their eyes wide open and understands the consequences of what they’re committing to. The problem is that fluid policies over the years — and perhaps uneven application of those policies — seem to have created false or misunderstood expectations.

We often say here: “The needs of the [insert any branch] come first.” So I believe the SAs should be true to that, i.e. “Sign 2/7 with the full expectation that you must fulfill your service obligation, subject to the needs of the [insert any branch].” Now, to use David Robinson as an example, the Navy may say “We need you to play a prominent public-affairs role to help with recruiting and image. Therefore, we’re assigning you to pursue an NBA career.” From there, arrangements could be made for him to straddle the Navy and NBA, i.e. serving while playing.

This “default is service” with flexibility to “meet the needs” avoids an ambiguous blanket policy that sets false expectations. Not any or every professional athlete has PR value. Robinson and Napoleon McCallum, certainly. Malcolm Perry, maybe, as he seems capable of getting some playing time. An undrafted football player or a fringe baseball prospect toiling in the low minors or an athlete playing a relatively obscure sport — probably not, because there’s not much PR value there to “meet the needs.”

Nothing against Cameron Kinley. He seems like a terrific person, was a standout mid, and will probably be a top-notch officer. But he ultimately must fulfill his obligation consistent with the needs of the Navy. And right now, they don’t seem to need him pursuing a longshot NFL spot.
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I believe, that is indeed what’s happening. But the public, apparently Kinley, parents, media, alumni, etc are not told what “the needs of the Navy” are. Nor should they, imo.

Would this all be better if that was disclosed? Idk. I doubt it. There would still be the debate of doing xxx is a real ‘need of the Navy’. So many cans of worms.

It could very well be, that due to COVID (and related things...some say the ‘cheating scandal’ is a result of Covid), Officers in all assencion programs are forecasted to be below a set number. It could be attrition, or other things I have no clue about, are affecting these decisions this year. WHO KNOWS? But, I believe that it’s all being played out under “the needs of the Navy”. And that was a ‘no’ to these two men this year.

It’s as transparent as most controversial things are. It’s as transparent as admissions 😂. Navy doesn’t owe me any explanation.
 
This is being discussed in many different forums. In one of them, a group of mid grade to senior officers, the concept of
a "Generational Talent" has crept in. Staubach and Joe Bellino won the Heisman and David Robinson had similar credentials in
basketball. One possible solution is to reserve the "good deals" for that level of ability. Maybe expand it to First Team All American
in their sport. Cameron Kinley was a good football player but I'd hardly think that he fits in at that level.
As an aside, a Navy Football player from the 70's was Chet Moeller who was a consensus First Team All American and certainly the best
Navy football player I ever saw. Besides his All America status, he is now in the College Football Hall of fame but few if any of you have heard of him. Needless to say, he was not given the opportunity to go pro.

Phil McConkey was a good football player at navy - maybe at Kinley's level. He served his full commitment and as a Navy Pilot had to
do a couple of extra years but he served, then went to the NFL and did pretty well.
 
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