k2rider, i've looked at the forums and it sounds like this has been debated issue in the military. The tape measure method in one article could be up to 60% different from the water test. 22% vs 10% on one test subject. It sounds as if the pinch test is considered by experts to be the most accurate measurement for body fat percentage, but unfortunately until the military thinking catches up with the science, some will have to walk a fine line while others unfortunately find themselves booted over the edge.
Frustration with ROTC!
- Thread starter KaranaE
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USMCGrunt
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K2: all the branches allow an alternate taping method when the charts don't fit the situation. All use a slightly different methodology and have different tolerances. These tests are very user dependent and subjective as opposed to weight. That is where the issues are.
It makes no sense to me why the services use height weight tables, or even the taping method, as final determinants of body fat %. Both are merely crude approximations of true body fat %. Why doesn't the Army have a water tank at larger bases, and simply send a non-conforming cadet (per the height weight tables and tape measure methods) to have his/her true body fat % accurately measured there? Careers are ruined because of unnecessary approximations. It's really an abuse if you stop to think about it. Why approximate when you can have the real answer?
If I were a cadet/mid or an active duty soldier/seaman/airman, and was about to be discharged for surpassing the maximum body fat % as measured by Table or Tape Measure, I would on my own go get my body fat measured scientifically in a water tank to see if I were actually under the max limit. Would the Army really discharge someone whose true body fat is under the max limit as accurately determined by a water tank?
If I were a cadet/mid or an active duty soldier/seaman/airman, and was about to be discharged for surpassing the maximum body fat % as measured by Table or Tape Measure, I would on my own go get my body fat measured scientifically in a water tank to see if I were actually under the max limit. Would the Army really discharge someone whose true body fat is under the max limit as accurately determined by a water tank?
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platypus1618
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Not disputing anything that's been said or condoning the military's reasoning, but to answer your question: The military is downsizing, so first of all they're not looking to find a way to retain more personnel (again, not condoning), and, let's face it, they were never good at implementing change to being with. The tape test is the cheapest both in terms of equipment and training required. Even if only some bases had more reliable methods, there's still a cost involved, plus the cost of transporting soldiers from other bases. It is just not cost efficient for the military to install that equipment and then pay to drag every noncompliant soldier there and back, for the sake of the one or two out of hundreds or even thousands for whom it will actually make the difference between passing and failing.
If they really wanted to, I'm sure they could develop a "you get a dunk test if you have x PT score/commander recommendation/whatever" but there would still be some who feel shafted and, again, the military isn't looking to spend more money just to retain more personnel. And so you have some people who pay the price.
If they really wanted to, I'm sure they could develop a "you get a dunk test if you have x PT score/commander recommendation/whatever" but there would still be some who feel shafted and, again, the military isn't looking to spend more money just to retain more personnel. And so you have some people who pay the price.
Pima
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+1 platypus
It is just cost prohibitive! Let's say they have them at the big bases like Belvoir and Bragg. The member from Ft Drum would be paid to fly down, put in a hotel for two nights and given per diem for three days.
~ Assume the appointment is Tuesday at 10....they fly him out on Monday and by the time he is done there are no more flights so he has to stay for one more night.
That one test just to get them there and back from their duty station could cost 1000+ without adding in the cost of the equipment and personnel to give the excam.
I also think that once AD it is not common for separating personnel due to being in the big boy/girl program. In the twenty years Bullet served I can't recall one guy being released for that reason.
Dunninla I believe what you are talking about is called an EMP, exception to medical policy. That is not an easy path because it has to go up the chain, all the way up. It is about 5 steps up to the Chief of the Army, and if one person says no than is denied. Most people will at the least try this before throwing in the towel. Thus, in the end you just gave the biggest reàson why they should not pay to implement the dunk test. Why when only a few will fail the max and need the dunk test.
It is just cost prohibitive! Let's say they have them at the big bases like Belvoir and Bragg. The member from Ft Drum would be paid to fly down, put in a hotel for two nights and given per diem for three days.
~ Assume the appointment is Tuesday at 10....they fly him out on Monday and by the time he is done there are no more flights so he has to stay for one more night.
That one test just to get them there and back from their duty station could cost 1000+ without adding in the cost of the equipment and personnel to give the excam.
I also think that once AD it is not common for separating personnel due to being in the big boy/girl program. In the twenty years Bullet served I can't recall one guy being released for that reason.
Dunninla I believe what you are talking about is called an EMP, exception to medical policy. That is not an easy path because it has to go up the chain, all the way up. It is about 5 steps up to the Chief of the Army, and if one person says no than is denied. Most people will at the least try this before throwing in the towel. Thus, in the end you just gave the biggest reàson why they should not pay to implement the dunk test. Why when only a few will fail the max and need the dunk test.
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Long awaited but an update. My son retook his PT test before the end of the semester and passed. Found out today that they are still refusing to pay for the semester. Presumably not because of the PT test anymore but because he redid his 104r but did not use the updated form :/ they now claim it is too late because he is 1 day passed the semester.
Sorry for the Arm Chair commentary, but this sounds like one messed up battalion HR.
Jcleppe-I agree and as a parent it is so frustrating to watch and not be able to help him. He feels stuck at this point[emoji29]. It is costing him more to be in ROTC than they are contributing toward school but he doesn't have the resources to quit. They would make him repay everything they gave him with interest. He really wants to be in the military but NOT in this ROTC unit. He feel unsupported and targeted[emoji35]. He also knows that complaining to his superiors will most likely create and even more difficult situation.
So far they have covered about 1.5-2 yrs of the 3.5 yrs he has been in college but kept him from working during the summer because they insisted he attend PT on campus everyday . He had to stay away from home therefor costing him $ for summer living expenses.
WHAT A MESS!!
k2rider
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My normal advice would be to "let your son handle it" but he's obviously done his best. If it was me at this point, I'd probably be trying to contact Cadet Command for some help. All this sounds crazy. If nothing else, there's folks at CC that could make a transfer happen if they want to. Whether they would want to or would automatically side with the cadre at your son's current school is another question.