Honest Question

[foamspoon]

I have researched all the academies for the past two years pretty extensively. I have visited all the academies several times (excluding USAFA). My daughter is currently a plebe at USNA. I have a question about USMMA. We live on Long Island so I am pretty familiar with Kings Point. I love the campus, but it is obvious that it could use some TLC. The common thing I hear about USMMA is it is a tough place to be but a great place to be from. (You hear that about all the academies). Without going into details my daughter was told by a Midshipman at USMMA "Don't come here" during an overnight by someone that was passing by. I asked my daughter if they were joking or being sarcastic and she said no. I also watched the 2022 Valedictorian Speech. To be honest the speech gave me pause. Having said that there are many more people that had great things to say about USMMA but did say it was not easy and did come with its own unique set of challenges.

Here is my question. Is USMMA more of an overall challenge when compared to the other academies when considering the overall quality of life by the midshipman? Are the challenges of academy life more challenging at USMMA? My other daughter in high school who wants to play lacrosse is applying to USMMA, Coast Guard, and USNA. We both love the post-grad opportunities of USMMA whether it is private or choosing the military path. I think USMMA would be a great fit for her career goals, athletically, plus it is close to home. I know USMMA has the sea year and think my daughter would enjoy that part of USMMA.
I am interested in hearing anyone's thoughts.

 

[A1Janitor]

Interesting discussion. In to follow.

 

[JohnPAKP65]

King's Point is rigorous academically, and arguably it can be more rigorous than the other SAs. One has to remember that the sea experience takes a long time, essentially a year, away from academics, but still you have to get the required minimum credit hours for the degree. These days some academic credit is acquired from the sea experience. In my day (1965) no credit was obtained for anything during the sea year, but again you had to acquire the prescribed minimum for the BS degree.

 

[jbm2m]

I have been advised by people who would know that, of the service academies, USMMA is the furthest behind in terms of moving beyond the traditional stereotypes - essentially that the culture is less welcoming of women and people of color.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

I have researched all the academies for the past two years pretty extensively. I have visited all the academies several times (excluding USAFA). My daughter is currently a plebe at USNA. I have a question about USMMA. We live on Long Island so I am pretty familiar with Kings Point. I love the campus, but it is obvious that it could use some TLC. The common thing I hear about USMMA is it is a tough place to be but a great place to be from. (You hear that about all the academies). Without going into details my daughter was told by a Midshipman at USMMA "Don't come here" during an overnight by someone that was passing by. I asked my daughter if they were joking or being sarcastic and she said no. I also watched the 2022 Valedictorian Speech. To be honest the speech gave me pause. Having said that there are many more people that had great things to say about USMMA but did say it was not easy and did come with its own unique set of challenges.

Here is my question. Is USMMA more of an overall challenge when compared to the other academies when considering the overall quality of life by the midshipman? Are the challenges of academy life more challenging at USMMA? My other daughter in high school who wants to play lacrosse is applying to USMMA, Coast Guard, and USNA. We both love the post-grad opportunities of USMMA whether it is private or choosing the military path. I think USMMA would be a great fit for her career goals, athletically, plus it is close to home. I know USMMA has the sea year and think my daughter would enjoy that part of USMMA.
I am interested in hearing anyone's thoughts.

My first, at a SA , and this the USNA, and later a grad, made his recruiting visit to the USNA and stayed with the plebs on the team

Several times he was advised by the people who were supposed to be helping recruiting him——“ don’t come here it’s a miserable place” —-it was after all a dark cold January weekend.

When I picked him up after the weekend his assessment of USNA plebs——the unhappiest group of people I ever saw in my life.

 

[JohnPAKP65]

I have been advised by people who would know that, of the service academies, USMMA is the furthest behind in terms of moving beyond the traditional stereotypes - essentially that the culture is less welcoming of women and people of color.

I'm not sure I would term the KP culture as less welcoming. I will say that to visit the Academy, and I have on many recent occasions, the women and minorities are integrated well into the over all class. There is great respect for each other among a stellar group of young people.
But on to your question; there is a good article on the academies at America’s Military Service Academies: An Outstanding Option For Undergraduate Education. The article cites the numbers for all the Academies as of August 2022 and indeed the stated numbers reflect that at KP the percentages of women and minorities is the lowest of all the SAs. The attachment summarizes what was reported in the cited article and represents the enrollments on an overall basis (all classes of of August 2022).

Why is KP lowest on women and minorities? A key statement in the article's description of KP is "Its service obligation is the most extensive of the academies". I would think as well that KP offering essentially two curriculums is a factor. Annapolis offers about 25.

 

[RowingMom]

Observations as a current mid parent. For context, my DS applied to “all seagoing” academies. He also visited all 3 of them. He knew he wanted engineering and has loved ships for as long as we can remember. He chose USMMA for a number of reasons - he really liked the idea of graduating with the coast guard license, sea year and the options for his career post-graduation (commercial or any military service branch).
I think he was also drawn to the smaller class with around ~250 per year. He knows and is friends with almost everyone in his class. They have some very close bonds. I see this in all the alumni we meet who are a very tight knit group. They look out for one another and the midshipmen.

And sea year this past year has been amazing for him and his classmates. He has sailed all around Asia and Europe and his academics did prepare him to know how to do his job as a cadet.

Now, on the negative side, yes I have seen him and his classmates struggle (COVID not withstanding). I have seen his fellow mids set back and disenrolled because they couldn’t keep up with the challenging academic pace and course load or decide sailing isn’t for them. The USMMA also has far fewer academic majors too. Their facilities do need (and are getting) some upgrades and improvements - this will take time.

Still when I ask him would he do it again, his answer is still the same. He is where he belongs. Good luck to your daughter!

 

[Holden100]

My first, at a SA , and this the USNA, and later a grad, made his recruiting visit to the USNA and stayed with the plebs on the team

Several times he was advised by the people who were supposed to be helping recruiting him——“ don’t come here it’s a miserable place” —-it was after all a dark cold January weekend.

When I picked him up after the weekend his assessment of USNA plebs——the unhappiest group of people I ever saw in my life.

 

[Holden100]

DS had a similar experience at his spring CVW. The plebes were very honest with him, which he appreciated, about how difficult that year has been. But they were looking forward to their summer assignments and a little more freedom. His older brother is a 1/C in NROTC, so he's seen those ups and downs as well.

 

[foamspoon]

My first, at a SA , and this the USNA, and later a grad, made his recruiting visit to the USNA and stayed with the plebs on the team

Several times he was advised by the people who were supposed to be helping recruiting him——“ don’t come here it’s a miserable place” —-it was after all a dark cold January weekend.

When I picked him up after the weekend his assessment of USNA plebs——the unhappiest group of people I ever saw in my life.

Thank you.

 

[MidCakePa]

In the several years I’ve been on SAF, I’ve read countless posts from SA alumni that “[SA] is a terrible place to be, but a great place to be from.”

That seems to jibe with the plebe experience, especially during the so-called Dark Ages of winter — probably the low point of the entire mid/cadet experience. So no surprise that many candidates who visit around that time report back about miserable mids/cadets warning them not to come there.

Aside from DD’s own experience at USNA, I’ve known quite a few SA alumni through graduate school and my corporate career. I don’t think they all uniformly loved their time there. And I don’t think a single one of them regrets the decision to attend an SA. They’re all quite successful professionally — strong leaders all.

 

[Zinc4]

I have researched all the academies for the past two years pretty extensively. I have visited all the academies several times (excluding USAFA). My daughter is currently a plebe at USNA. I have a question about USMMA. We live on Long Island so I am pretty familiar with Kings Point. I love the campus, but it is obvious that it could use some TLC. The common thing I hear about USMMA is it is a tough place to be but a great place to be from. (You hear that about all the academies). Without going into details my daughter was told by a Midshipman at USMMA "Don't come here" during an overnight by someone that was passing by. I asked my daughter if they were joking or being sarcastic and she said no. I also watched the 2022 Valedictorian Speech. To be honest the speech gave me pause. Having said that there are many more people that had great things to say about USMMA but did say it was not easy and did come with its own unique set of challenges.

Here is my question. Is USMMA more of an overall challenge when compared to the other academies when considering the overall quality of life by the midshipman? Are the challenges of academy life more challenging at USMMA? My other daughter in high school who wants to play lacrosse is applying to USMMA, Coast Guard, and USNA. We both love the post-grad opportunities of USMMA whether it is private or choosing the military path. I think USMMA would be a great fit for her career goals, athletically, plus it is close to home. I know USMMA has the sea year and think my daughter would enjoy that part of USMMA.
I am interested in hearing anyone's thoughts.

Great questions. I'm a Veteran and a parent of a current USMMA Mid.

USMMA's curriculum model is very challenging, maybe more so than the other FSAs, because the four years of academics are squeezed into three with the remaining year being spent at sea in their 3/C and 2/C years. The Sea Year has its own extensive coursework termed the "sea year projects." Many students struggle with the course load with some having to take summer school, some being set-back a year, and some being permanently dismissed. I cannot speak to the overall challenges of academy life compared to the other Academies. The Mids at USMMA run on little sleep, stand watch, play their sports if applicable, balance the academics etc etc so I'm guessing that part is comparable.

What I don't like about USMMA: this academy is run by DoT/Marad and not DoD so the campus has been neglected for decades as you've noted. Supposedly with recent legislation, this area of concern will be moving in the right direction but we'll see. There's a struggle between state maritime academies and KP getting the support they need. Selfish agendas and politics come into play here so the alumni and parent associations stay very active on behalf of the Academy's mission and support of its students. A topic for another thread... USMMA is at times seen as the underdog. That being said, there's something to be said about actually being an underdog; the label and misaligned treatment seem to pull this community together even tighter and there's a sense of pride at KP that exists because of this very reason. Definitely follow what Congress is doing with the budget among other things as it pertains to KP.

What I (as a parent) like about USMMA: the post-graduate opportunities are impressive. You will hear that USMMA is a "hidden gem." Mids are graduating with multiple job offers consisting of healthy starting salaries; they are sought after because companies know of the rigor of the school. A grad can go active duty in any branch OR work commercially and go Guard/Reserves. This community is small and the alumni are active so the networking is there. It's a D3 school so your athlete may see more playing time at KP instead of at the D1 academies. Campus location is hard to beat; the skyline view is across from one of the greatest cities in the world and students take advantage of the nightlife once given privileges. The students are generally miserable while they're there because of the previously stated reasons. No need to sugar coat it, but they're all miserable together, and they'll make friends and memories for life, some maybe not necessarily shareable.

For you personally, the fact that you live on LI is huge because you're so close to campus activities. Have your daughter connect with the women's lax community if she hasn't already. Encourage her to read about women working in the maritime industry. Follow "Women Offshore" by KP grad Ally Cedeno and GP Captain by John Konrad. Read about the MidShipman X story. If she is admitted to USMMA and decides KP is for her, she should enter the grounds with eyes wide open knowing the issues that women and minorities have and still face. Note that USMMA's current Sup, Admiral Nunan, is female. Also, the annual 5K run is happening next weekend. Consider attending as a spectator; there will be many parents and alumni there serving breakfast so there should be plenty of opportunities for you to ask more questions in person.

https://www.usmmaalumni.com/s/1860/18/interior.aspx?sid=1860&gid=2&pgid=1166

Good luck to your daughter

 

[severn]

I have researched all the academies for the past two years pretty extensively. I have visited all the academies several times (excluding USAFA). My daughter is currently a plebe at USNA. I have a question about USMMA. We live on Long Island so I am pretty familiar with Kings Point. I love the campus, but it is obvious that it could use some TLC. The common thing I hear about USMMA is it is a tough place to be but a great place to be from. (You hear that about all the academies). Without going into details my daughter was told by a Midshipman at USMMA "Don't come here" during an overnight by someone that was passing by. I asked my daughter if they were joking or being sarcastic and she said no. I also watched the 2022 Valedictorian Speech. To be honest the speech gave me pause. Having said that there are many more people that had great things to say about USMMA but did say it was not easy and did come with its own unique set of challenges.

Here is my question. Is USMMA more of an overall challenge when compared to the other academies when considering the overall quality of life by the midshipman? Are the challenges of academy life more challenging at USMMA? My other daughter in high school who wants to play lacrosse is applying to USMMA, Coast Guard, and USNA. We both love the post-grad opportunities of USMMA whether it is private or choosing the military path. I think USMMA would be a great fit for her career goals, athletically, plus it is close to home. I know USMMA has the sea year and think my daughter would enjoy that part of USMMA.
I am interested in hearing anyone's thoughts.

... so I think your family's military heritage plays a big part in your decision. Ours were always USNA and that other school in the Hudson.

 

[Wishful]

To paraphrase what some posters have said in the past, ask your DD what does she wish (see what I did there) to do after the Academy. Treat the Academy as a tool to use to get to her destination; the Academy, in itself, is not a destination. It's a 4 year "challange" where 4 years can seem like a long time for an 18y/o, but those of a certain age can look that period of time as bump in a long road. This can be hard to see on this forum because its purpose is to help young men & women get into a SA.
If for ex, she does not get in, would she consider ROTC, the SMC's, alternate commissioning paths?

PS: From what my DD says, the females in the AFA & AF stick together, can be counted upon to be very supportive, & at least in her circle, some rising stars who lift everyone's game. Can't speak to it but I can assume that's the way it is for the women in the other SA's in their respective Fleet/Wing, etc.
Best of luck to her!

 

[StPaulDad]

My DD chose not to apply to USMMA on her first go around but intended to try it the next year if she was rejected. Two things that gave pause at our house were the alarming Sea Year sexual assault stories (to the point where it was cancelled a few years) and the uniquely high number of students that took more than four years to graduate. Sea Year tears huge holes in the academic calendar, preventing a more normal semester format. And cramming a semester of work into a trimester adds to the challenges of academy life to the point where setbacks are needed so frequently that USMMA has a much more accommodating policy than the others. This isn't unusual at traditional colleges, but service academies aren't traditional schools and my DD was struck by how different this was from the other four SA where a four year graduation is pretty much standard.

 

[Pmaclax]

Infuriating... "my daughter was told by a Midshipman at USMMA "Don't come here" during an overnight by someone that was passing by." Often heard, I have a son at USMMA now and a younger son who went on an overnight and stayed with his brother, and a passerby said don't come here. Hysterical. The question to anybody who makes that comment is what are you still doing here? You aren't locked in until you start your junior year, you have one sailing and 5 tri's under your belt. So if people are so comfortable telling others not to come what the HECK are they still doing there? People who hear that comment really need to fire back at people who make it.

Now my understanding is some summer school finals took place as late as today. First-trimester classes start on Wednesday. This Academy is Academically grueling, make no mistake.

I am also on Long Island, and my son's Plebe year parent's weekend he was at home, and could have gone back to the Academy as late as possible, as soon as he heard some of his classmates were back, he said Dad can you take me now? I said you don't have to be back for hours, he said some of my classmates are back, I'd like to head back.

Other Academies have 3 summer sessions, KP has one. The grind really doesn't end. That's a huge difference. If you have summer school at USAFA, that's 3 weeks, and then you will still do two other programs SERE, Glider, Jump, CONUS, work Basic, etc. before school starts. At KP school starts end of July and it doesn't stop. And to a point made above, ultimately because of sea year you are fitting 4 years of classes into 3 years.

I have sons, no daughters, I think sea year would give me pause, not KP itself. My son is at sea now with 3 other Mids, 2 females, he said everything is good, but as a father of sons it's not my place to opine any further on this particular topic.

 

[Pmaclax]

My DD chose not to apply to USMMA on her first go around but intended to try it the next year if she was rejected. Two things that gave pause at our house were the alarming Sea Year sexual assault stories (to the point where it was cancelled a few years) and the uniquely high number of students that took more than four years to graduate. Sea Year tears huge holes in the academic calendar, preventing a more normal semester format. And cramming a semester of work into a trimester adds to the challenges of academy life to the point where setbacks are needed so frequently that USMMA has a much more accommodating policy than the others. This isn't unusual at traditional colleges, but service academies aren't traditional schools and my DD was struck by how different this was from the other four SA where a four year graduation is pretty much standard.

My personal opinion is that plebe setbacks are the primary reason for USMMA grads to not finish in 4 years, not sea year. I did not know until my son attended that you can be setback at KP, so if you aren't cutting it plebe year, you are told go home and take physics at your local community college and try again next year. To me if you come right out of high school and are set back and come back the following year (you do not have to do indoc again, you come back where you left off) you are in a similar situation to a preppie.

 

[Pmaclax]

Interesting discussion. In to follow.

Foreshadowing.

 

[sasmc]

Sea year is a mixed bag as a female. Many have great experiences and for others the completion of sea year and getting off the ship can’t come fast enough. You never know until you are actually on a ship which you are going to get.

 

[cmakin]

Taking the advice of someone still in the program is a bit dangerous. No, I didn't really like being there, but through the lens of 40 years, it was worth it. I am pretty sure that my 20 year old self may told someone not to attend, but I did not quit, and am glad that I didn't. I did come close after my second period at sea, but stuck it out instead.