How Many Have Gone Home?

I am not comparing anything. Kids are kids. Kids drop of of SA's for many of the same reasons they drop out of civilian colleges. It may not seem that way - SA's are so much more 'demanding' - but when you look deeper at some reasons - immaturity, family issues, homesickness, stress - they are very similar.
I betcha almost no one drops out of USNA because of a push up - there usually is a deeper reason.

I don't understand the train wreck that folks here are eager to observe and partake in from afar and the judgement that is laid down. Fact is the SA's have a much lower attrition rate than most *easier* civilian colleges.
 
I understand what you're saying JAM, and I do think from some things like "wasn't a good fit" or "wanted to be closer to home", yes there are some similar reasons for going.

I lost about 1/3 of my classmates. Some of them figured out they didn't like the academy setting or didn't want to be in the Coast Guard. Some of them just "couldn't take it." Not the academics, or the military obligations, or the athletic obligations alone, but all at once. That in the end, is one of the big differences at a service academy from a civilian college. So no a "push up" MAY not force anyone to leave, but getting yelled at during a push up, running off to Physics and having some issues may push someone in that direction.

The nice thing is, a number of graduate schools understand that a great service academy graduate may have a much lower GPA than his civilian college counterparts.

You also don't see people bouncing around service academies looking for a good fit. It's not an easy place to go to. Someone doesn't go to University of Denver and one day say "I think I'll try out Air Force Academy for a semester and see how that feels".

I would also like point at the most of the people "commenting from afar" have some leg to stand on because at some point they were in the thick of it, and either thought about leaving (know I did that many times those first 2-3 years) or watched PLENTY of their classmates leave.
 
Just read the rest of the thread. I take exception with one other statement....about plebes or swabs leaving only affected that plebe/swab.

When I was a cadet we had our rooms tossed one day, yelled out, marched out to the Old Quad, ITed, yelled at some more...

and then had a flag ceremony that night, learned how to fold the flag...and what each fold meant. Red head kid did the folding. That red head kid was going to be my roommate. The next morning he disappeared. Just one night folding the flag, the next morning GONE!

Talk about freaking a kid out that was already a little freaked out. Never knew his name.

When I was a cadre our platoon lost 6-8 swabs....out of 35ish. That DOES affect the kids around them. You make friends and it isn't easy to see some leave. You assume some of them are "strong" see them break and wonder if you can really do it.

Being there is something you have to decide on and find strength in on your own, but your shipmates are an important part of "taking the load" as well.
 
To back up on JAM's observation, several years ago during BGO training it was pointed out that NAVY was graduating 85% plus of its inductees in four years, comparable graduation rates in civilian universities were less than 40%. I think the difference is in the selection process, and the fact that most of the successful candidates have made a commitment to the SA lifestyle and opportunities vs the easy come, easy go atmosphere of most civilian schools. There is a strong bonding effect of the plebe summer and plebe year environments that helps midshipmen and cadets over many rough spots.
 
Those who have ever marched in a parade will tell you there's a huge difference b/t watching the parade and actually participating in it. The same is true of SAs . . . even those who do their research may not fully understand/internalize what life at a USNA and in the military is like until they actually live it.

That's why in my day, most people who left voluntarily either did so early in plebe year -- the "shock effect" of plebe life -- or after their 3/C year -- the "this is what life will be like for at least the next 7 years and that's not what I want" effect.

I, like most of you, had civilian friends leave their civilian colleges. The reasons there tended to be things such as, "I wanted to live closer to/further away from home," "the town was too large/small," "it didn't have the major/course of study I now know I want," "I want a larger/smaller school," etc. Those reasons rarely come into play in a decision to leave a SA.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
I am not comparing anything. Kids are kids. Kids drop of of SA's for many of the same reasons they drop out of civilian colleges. It may not seem that way - SA's are so much more 'demanding' - but when you look deeper at some reasons - immaturity, family issues, homesickness, stress - they are very similar.
I betcha almost no one drops out of USNA because of a push up - there usually is a deeper reason.

I don't understand the train wreck that folks here are eager to observe and partake in from afar and the judgement that is laid down. Fact is the SA's have a much lower attrition rate than most *easier* civilian colleges.
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Just to back-up JAM's point, regardless of the reason, students leave civilian colleges at a considerably higher rate than they leave SA's, so we can continue to emphasize the high retention rate as a positive.
 
I think the difference is in the selection process, and the fact that most of the successful candidates have made a commitment to the SA lifestyle and opportunities vs the easy come, easy go atmosphere of most civilian schools.
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Concur and also candidates "know" what they are getting into at USNA (including the consequences). They signed up for the military and if one has that burning desire to serve their nation, they won't let anything in the way --- that is why the graduation rate is high.
 
I would suggest that the support systems in place to help Mids/Cadets succeed also help to lower attrition at the SAs. At USNA, and I presume the other SA's. If someone decides to leave, the out-processing takes a while, and includes multiple interviews (i.e. with chaplains, officers, etc) and the opportunity to call home and talk things over with parents. For those who stay, there are numerous tutoring programs, writing/math workshops (not the right term) to help people succeed academically. DD's roommate actually met with a prof on Sunday morning for extra instruction at least once, because that's the only time they could find to meet.

In contract, at the civilian college I attended, no one knew or cared who showed up for class, or whether they passed, failed, or dropped out. If there were tutoring programs, they weren't well publicized. Our 4 year graduation rate was nowhere close to 85%.
 
Interesting Discussion

I have a Rat right now in his fourth week....having a difficult time and like from what I have read, right now can't seem to focus on one day at a time...I think reading about it, seeing Youtube videos, doing the overnight etc etc is a lot different than living it which I try to project through to him.
So thanks for confirming what I have been trying to tell him from folks that have been there/done that!
 
USNA vs Civillian College

College is tough but, USNA uses very different methods to acclimate their plebes. Some plebes were seriously hurt this summer, list serve is perhaps more frank about this because parents are sharing rather than recruiting.

Our kids are already in, and once your son or daughter is in all you can do is watch and help where you can. We share because it is happening now, not "back when", we share because we are trying to get through. Everyone here is passionate about USNA and the mids. Parents and students should get all the info, not just the sugar coated.

Anyone care to talk about boxing and head trauma this year, high board diving and back braces, plebes coerced by detailers to ignore medical chits?
 
Northstream said:
Anyone care to talk about boxing and head trauma this year, high board diving and back braces, plebes coerced by detailers to ignore medical chits?
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Overblown, overblown, and happens-but-shouldn't-and-not-as-often-as-people-think. Boxing isn't that bad. If you're not an idiot and pay attention to the instructors, you can escape the 10 meter without injury. With both of those events, I'm sure that worse injuries HAVE happened, but generally the most you have to worry about is a bloody nose, headache and sore hindquarters.

There's a difference between "hurt/injured" and "hurting," and over plebe summer a lot of the plebes don't get that. By the middle of second set, everyone's sore, tired, and definitely hurting. The detailers get kind of fed up with "My shins hurt!" and "I'm sore!" Yeah, we get it. Everyone's sore. You're not special, and when the plebes asked us to go to PEP tent for some random thing ("Ma'am, I need a band aid for this tiny cut on my knee!" "I can just give you one. I have an entire box in my room." "Oh...uh, ma'am, my shins hurt too.") we often ended up looking at it a little warily.
I can speak for my company and say that we never denied a kid from going to PEP tent or seeking medical help, but we did stress the difference between hurt and hurting and told plebes their options. In some cases, NOT going to PEP tent or BMU ended up being more beneficial because it gave us and them more discretion over what they were able to participate in. Other companies may have flat out told kids not to go to medical, which shouldn't happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

And, honestly, the plebes coerce themselves to ignore medical chits, especially after the first couple weeks. Once they realize that going on chit and being unable to participate is one of the fastest ways to be...disliked by your classmates. It sucks, and it's unfair since a lot of kids have legit medical issues, but it happens.
I ended up forcing one of mine to go to medical after he tried toughing out an injury, something as stupid as an ingrown toenail...he ended up in the hospital for four or five days and losing a chunk of his toe due to a nasty infection he'd tried to hide for the last chunk of first set.
For detailers, there is no benefit to having kids avoid medical problems. Sure, it's a pain to coordinate someone to take all of them to PEP tent, Ortho, etc (or Bethesda!) and dealing with injury reports, but it's better than doing the carpet dance in front of your company officer trying to explain why you didn't know what was up with your people and having a kid in the hospital, which is no fun for anybody.
 
Northstream said:
College is tough but, USNA uses very different methods to acclimate their plebes. Some plebes were seriously hurt this summer, list serve is perhaps more frank about this because parents are sharing rather than recruiting.

Our kids are already in, and once your son or daughter is in all you can do is watch and help where you can. We share because it is happening now, not "back when", we share because we are trying to get through. Everyone here is passionate about USNA and the mids. Parents and students should get all the info, not just the sugar coated.

Anyone care to talk about boxing and head trauma this year, high board diving and back braces, plebes coerced by detailers to ignore medical chits?
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LOL. Parents of new plebes always have a more realistic perspective of what is going on at USNA than those who have actually been there and experienced it.
 
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Anyone care to talk about boxing and head trauma this year, high board diving and back braces, plebes coerced by detailers to ignore medical chits?
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Oh dear. Northstream, it appears you have exposed a 'dirty little secret' that occurs at every SA - collateral damage. No one on this forum is going to admit that this happens.
When this happens to your own offspring there is little you, as a parent, can do. If you attempt to question or express concern you will be politely (and sometimes not so politely) admonished that Your (plebe/mid/cadet) is exaggerating, not paying attention, doesn't "really" want to be there or is too afraid to tell his/her parents the 'truth'.
Pick one. You will get this response from current mids because they are circling the wagons, grads because they block out the bad stuff and other parents because if it didn't happen to their kid - it didn't happen.
Some will survive it and some won't. When this happens to your offspring, there is little you can do.
 
Agree with Hurricane12. You hear it in football all of the time -- if you're hurting, you play through the pain. If you're hurt, you don't.

It's hard to explain if you haven't gone through it. If someone is legitimately ill or injured, no one wants them to continue. However, whining and sniveling won't be well-tolerated. It's not just the detailers -- as Hurricane says, it's your classmates. Some people whine at the first boo-boo and others tough out legitimate injuries without saying a peep.

In a perfect world, everyone would know the difference. The world isn't perfect. As parents, you can trust that the detailers -- AND the officers -- are keeping an eye on things. All things being equal, the medical care you get at USNA and in the military is pretty darn good and, I would argue, better than most of us get as civilians.

I'm sure it's tough being a parent and seeing your child hurt. But injuries will occur in a SA environment -- in most cases they're minor and the mids are well looked after medically.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Oh dear. Northstream, it appears you have exposed a 'dirty little secret' that occurs at every SA - collateral damage. No one on this forum is going to admit that this happens.
When this happens to your own offspring there is little you, as a parent, can do. If you attempt to question or express concern you will be politely (and sometimes not so politely) admonished that Your (plebe/mid/cadet) is exaggerating, not paying attention, doesn't "really" want to be there or is too afraid to tell his/her parents the 'truth'.
Pick one. You will get this response from current mids because they are circling the wagons, grads because they block out the bad stuff and other parents because if it didn't happen to their kid - it didn't happen.
Some will survive it and some won't. When this happens to your offspring, there is little you can do.
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:rolleyes: I'm playing the world's tiniest violin right now. The drama in this thread is great. Trust me, I don't view USNA through rose-colored glasses and I'm not "circling the wagons" or "blocking out the bad stuff."

We say that they are exaggerating because they usually are exaggerating. The MIDN rumor underground comes up with some hilariously overblown stories (particularly re. injuries and conduct offenses) and the parents, of course, believe everything because their "dear ___" wouldn't dare lie. Bottom line, every time your kid says "Mom, I heard that..." take whatever follows with a grain of salt. They might not intentionally be leading you astray, but if nothing else they probably heard the wrong story from the start.

Also, nobody wants to call their parents and say they got hurt or fried for something that was their fault. I remember talking to one of my (former, now youngster in a different company) plebes and her saying that telling her parents that she wasn't coming home for Christmas because of her conduct offense was the hardest thing she'd ever had to do.
Most parents are proud of their kids at service academies, and that's great, but it puts pressure on them to not screw up. Admitting that you did make a mistake can be hard, especially when it's so easy to tell you guys "But it's not my fault because..."
 
It may be helpful to remind parents that the "parenting days" are effectively over. No parent is "trying to get through it". Sorry. Parents are at home, and with the exception of Alumni parents, have never gone through anything like USMA, USNA, USAFA, USCGA or USMMA. It's great for parents to be supportive, and I can say, FROM EXPERIENCE, it's nice to have a friendly voice on the other end of the phone, but there is no need for parents to "circle the wagons" because Timmy or Julie twisted their ankle.

I'm sure cadets/midshipmen who have done the plebe or swab thing (or the cadre/detail thing) can think of people who were constantly hurt. Know that someone constantly seeking medical help when they are not hurt are not only looked at differently by their classmates and cadre, but if extreme, may violate UCMJ.
 
Agree with LITS and 1985. Your hovering parent days are over. They are now adults. Sometimes my Mid said hurting and sometimes said hurt with medical restrictions after evaluation. There is a big difference. Detailers who overlooked a Plebe injury should be severely disciplined. That is one of their stressed training blocks. They usually have a great Christmas Youtube Video by all those Mids in hack over the holiday while singing Christmas Carols around the piano. Violation of UCMJ may be kind of tough, separation maybe.
 
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