Legal Help

[golfindad]

It is unfair to current and future members on here for former students to give advise that is portrayed as definitive. Initial board decisions have been made. Notice of Appeals are due this week. And students have been advised that this administration is not the same as the past. And, btw, there is no guarantee of a deferred or set back. So while your experience is valuable for people to learn from and consider I am afraid that your definitiveness is a bit misleading at the current time. There is no set number of failures that can serve as a guideline. The generalities that have been put forth such as 3 and you are fine is not the case across the board at present. Finally it is definitely good advice to hire counsel. There are procedural and other issues and deadlines that need to be complied with and student rights protected. I'm not bashing. I'm just saying that things are not the same as you all remember them to be.

 

[beyond]

It is unfair to current and future members on here for former students to give advise that is portrayed as definitive.

Let's do a thing here, lets look at the posts from "former students." (We're alumni, but whatever)

they'll probably get

it sounds like

almost certainly a deferred grad.

has a good case

"Probably," "sounds like," and "has a good case" aren't very definitive to me, but hey ho. Even "almost certainly" still has the gaping unknown of "almost."

Meanwhile...... from the non-"former students"

Golfindad has a point that things have changed with the new Superintendent.

There is definitely

These are things that are definitive, the second post literally has the same root word, even though it is speculative in nature.

And students have been advised that this administration is not the same as the past.

Do you know how many times I've heard this before? I had three different superintendents and two commandants while I was at the zoo, and every time someone new showed up we'd hear the same shtick about there being a new sheriff in town. So much of the policy (...like differed grads for projects) that drives KP is decided at levels higher than Wiley hall. This is the institutional memory that "former students" posses and others lack.

Finally it is definitely good advice to hire counsel. There are procedural and other issues and deadlines that need to be complied with and student rights protected.

If by counsel you mean lawyer, there is better bang for your buck, like a faculty member. The Wasson decision (and the similar West Point Case) had a two fold impact on the ability of midshipman to hire an attorney. Because lawyers can't represent midshipmen at hearings (usually), very few midshipmen hire lawyers, thus there are very few lawyers well versed in the relevant procedures. You'd be better off engaging a faculty member who can be with you during the entire process, and is knowledgeable about the RFD process.

 

[cmakin]

The school does appoint a faculty member to defend them.

If its 3 projects including humanities it's almost certainly a deferred grad. As much as the humanities people like to think their project matters, it doesn't. And it's redone easily at school. The other two, it sounds like he'll have to go to sea for a few months post grad to finish. Last year a 2019A mid who failed all the 2nd sail projects was given a setback. However, that was under James and not Jack. Everyone has said Jack is going to be tougher on academic failures. But, all things considered I would say 90% deferred grad. The SOP for 3 fails is deferred grad, and since one is humanities which he can literally do right now it would be a huge waste of a year to do 2 projects again. I think you're worrying for nothing here really. He's probably scared because he's RFD and going to see a board, but tons of people have been RFD and the majority still probably graduated.

While I really don't recall much of my Sea Project, I DO recall having to do my Humanities section over after my first half . . .As I recall it may have been something like a Sea Letter. . .I do remember it was for Percy (old timers know who I am mentioning). After writing a second one, I passed. For my second year sea project, I spent a bit more time on the sea letter. . . .oh, and found a perfect Pony on my final ship. . .SCORE!!!!

 

[golfindad]

what the heck. I'm just a lawyer with some first hand knowledge about the current situation. But, hey, y'all are alumni and not just former students. And if you think a faculty member will protect you as well as outside counsel, or if that faculty member is going to set up the arguments for the best outcome should you need to go beyond the administrative process, go for it. Maybe, outside counsel working with the student, and faculty member if faculty member will do so, is a good avenue to take.

 

[beyond]

And if you think a faculty member will protect you as well as outside counsel, or if that faculty member is going to set up the arguments for the best outcome should you need to go beyond the administrative process, go for it.

The issue is that unless you're charged with a criminal offense, the case law really restricts what a lawyer can do for you. If you're going to say "lawyer up!" then you need to acknowledge how hand cuffed a lawer would be in advising you, and that very few attorneys are practiced in doing it for KP mids.

Read Cody v. Scott and Crowley v. US Merchant Marine Academy.

 

[golfindad]

Your view of an attorney's role is short sighted. Just because the attorney is not in the hearing itself, does not mean that the attorney has no value. Once the administrative process is complete, a mid then has the right to challenge the findings, and argue a variety of errors made during the administrative process, some sounding in due process others sounding in violations of the APA among others. Highlighting these errors during the administrative process can assist in both the administrative process and in setting the stage for a legal challenge. You seem to cite to Cody and Crowley as being supportive of the lack of need for counsel. I view them as a testimony for the need to have counsel.

 

[kpmom2013]

If you are a non-lawyer alum, you may have some insight into the administrative process at Kings Point. However, you may not realize how timely advice from an experienced attorney can help a Midshipman in shaping and setting up a case for future review and potential appeal, in negotiating a mutually agreeable settlement, in avoiding the cost of paying back tuition after disenrollment, among other things. The staff at KP often violate standards of procedural and substantive due process that can prove fatal for any disciplinary action they try to take. For the Midshipman who is involved, my advice is that you don't know what you don't know. I have been a practicing trial lawyer for forty years, but maybe you want to dismiss my advice as coming from an outsider. I am not going to argue this issue further, but if anyone needs a referral to a good lawyer who is experienced with Kings Point procedures, please pm me.

 

[KP Eng]

I'm loving that the two advocates for getting an attorney are both attorneys! Good luck counselors. To the OP, if your son ends up on the wrong side of Vickery Gate when this is all over, a year of SUNY Maritime tuition is $7,000 and it's a sure thing as opposed to litigation. My 2 cents on this topic is exhausted.

 

[beyond]

Your view of an attorney's role is short sighted. Just because the attorney is not in the hearing itself, does not mean that the attorney has no value. Once the administrative process is complete, a mid then has the right to challenge the findings, and argue a variety of errors made during the administrative process, some sounding in due process others sounding in violations of the APA among others. Highlighting these errors during the administrative process can assist in both the administrative process and in setting the stage for a legal challenge. You seem to cite to Cody and Crowley as being supportive of the lack of need for counsel. I view them as a testimony for the need to have counsel.

That’s not my argument. By all means, engaging counsel early is advantageous. But to advocate for it without acknowledging the serious limitations isn’t giving the OP the entire picture.

 

[golfindad]

That’s not my argument. By all means, engaging counsel early is advantageous. But to advocate for it without acknowledging the serious limitations isn’t giving the OP the entire picture.

Point taken.

 

[beyond]

variety of errors made during the administrative process, some sounding in due process others sounding in violations of the APA among others. Highlighting these errors during the administrative process can assist in both the administrative process and in setting the stage for a legal challenge.

The staff at KP often violate standards of procedural and substantive due process that can prove fatal for any disciplinary action they try to take.

I think there is some value is hiring a lawyer if you've been kicked out, but I don't think this is where the value would be. The rules are often made up on the fly at KP, but in all of the decisions where KP mids have sued the judges almost always dismiss the procedural issues. If I got kicked out, I'd use every tool in the toolbox to get back in. I just haven't seen the procedural error issue work as a strategy.

 

[Mr2020]

When my friend was getting dis-enrolled he had an attorney. All the attorney could do was help him draft appeals letters and statements. Once you appeal to the supe your last appeal is to the administrator. The administrator probably won't overturn whatever Jack does, I think he did overturn things that James did from time to time, but rarely. The attorney could help him prepare his case but not actually advocate for him. He still ended up getting dis-enrolled. The thing is that by going to KP you accept the administrative processes and agree to follow them. If the admin wants you gone they will get rid of you regardless of the presence of a lawyer.

 

[beyond]

if the admin wants you gone they will get rid of you regardless of the presence of a lawyer.

This. In the industry it's known as getting run off.

 

[azmilmom]

On a side note, looks like the new update to SAF allows one to do more than just 'like' a post...as a just did a laughing emoji over @KP Eng comment about two attorneys advocating getting an attorney.

 

[KP2020Dad]

I'm loving that the two advocates for getting an attorney are both attorneys! Good luck counselors. To the OP, if your son ends up on the wrong side of Vickery Gate when this is all over, a year of SUNY Maritime tuition is $7,000 and it's a sure thing as opposed to litigation. My 2 cents on this topic is exhausted.

I hope it don't come to that, but that was my thinking, as well.

 

[CMW]

How does deferred graduation work? Do they still walk at graduation?

 

[beyond]

How does deferred graduation work? Do they still walk at graduation?

Depends on the administration, but most recently I believe they have not been allowed to walk at graduation.

I think my classmates were offered the option to walk with 2016, but at that point who cares, you aren't with your friends and you've already moved on with life.

 

[Mr2020]

Depends on the administration, but most recently I believe they have not been allowed to walk at graduation.

I think my classmates were offered the option to walk with 2016, but at that point who cares, you aren't with your friends and you've already moved on with life.

Jack changed his mind last minute. Deferred grads walked with our class this year. Graduation was more of a hassle than a gift though, definitely for the family members. I would have rather walked away as soon as I passed license than sit through a 2 hour circus in the sweltering June sun on the field.

 

[CMW]

What is the difference than between a setback and a deferred graduation?

 

[kpmom2013]

A setback means that you leave and come back the following year to become a member of the class behind you. A deferred graduation means that you remain a part of the class you are currently in, but that you do not actually graduate with that class due to an academic deficiency that you need to make up.