Mars Girl

[flieger83]

Flieger, you know I love you, but I want to pose this to you:

A. Let's acknowledge hazing (BCT) in your day and what occurs now...it is night and day.

B. If you had to re-live the memory of the AFA as a C2C, you would agree you probably had the same opinion. Age made you wiser, regarding how to address the issue. We are fortunate for the internet and that you can impart your wisdom. You did not have that in the 80s.

C. I agree, have the goal, but I differentiate from you on the cadets slamming her for the dream. I think they are concerned more about her "ME" attitude than her dream.

You and I both love the AF to the bottom of our hearts. If I didn't, do you think I would kiss our DS on his cheek and say "God Speed"? If I didn't do you think I would say to Bullet go and give the oath to an AFA cadet? We both have seen the AF changed in the past 20+ yrs, some good, some bad. If I was to be brutally honest I would say that the military has become to political and has lost sight of their true mission, I don't because I still believe.

I understand your point believing that they are hurting the AF with the following quote:


However, they need to bond, and I believe that 1980 BCT was a lot worse than 2010. There's our difference, I believe that the cadets don't want her to fail, I believe if they are hard on her, it is to her advantage to get rid of the "ME" attitude, and understand that it is "US".

Honestly, what kids state on internet postings is a true light into their mind.

I think it is great you gave the cadets something to think about regarding incoming cadets, but at the end of the day we must trust these cadets enough to pass the torch. They are our future leaders. Yes, they are young, but they aren't ignorant, arrogant or stupid. We mus cut our apron strings, and accept the fact that they are worthy.

Hey Pima!

No, we agree here. And in 1980 as a newly minted 3 degree (I'm older than you think/know, BCT was in June '79: a year after HS) I actually was locked in the opinion that I would NEVER be like the classes of '80 and '82 as they had just put me through the most miserable year of my life (up to that point).

And in fairness, I don't know how I would have felt had we the internet, social networking, etc. I do know that I was a proponent (and passed to my doolies) of being "a hole in the air" and NOT standing out needlessly.

What has bothered me here, and in my ALO work (and in TDY assignments to USAFA) is the "from what I've seen" prevalent attitude among a LOT of the cadets I have dealt with of "I'm so much more superior than them, I will show them too!" And while I'm all for confidence, what I have seen during BCT, and the academic year isn't that, it's more of a "I have the authority and will therefore have some fun with them" attitude.

And I hated it as a cadet and as an officer I despise it.

My greatest concern, as you correctly point out, is the "me" attitude; however, I'm afraid its being inculcated AT USAFA. I work with so many candidates that have attitudes like this young lady would profess...but they're so pumped/nervous/curious about what they're about to enter...and then they get there and the HUGE PUSH is about "your class, your classmates, etc." AS IT SHOULD BE.

However...after the doolie year, I've seen so many of the upperclasses develop a "ME" attitude and a whole lot less of the "class/classmate/squadron/group/wing" attitudes. And I'm not sure where that's coming from. And that is what concerns me.

Like you, I'm a rabid USAF person! It's been my life since...well since I was born, way back in 1959. Dad's dad did 41 years, dad did 30 years...I'm the last of the line. And I really REALLY want to see OUR USAF continue to excel, to show the nation and the world that we really are "all that and a bag of chips!"

And these cadets, and new appointee's, they are our future. I don't want ONE of them to take a hit just because of a silly comment online...it's TOO TRIVIAL; especially this early on. And let's be fair: if a few of our cadets here online decided to make her life miserable, they could quite easily. And if they did, it just might be the "extra nudge" that changes her mind on the USAF, etc.

It's tough enough as is...she/anyone else, doesn't need the extra "attention."

I'm really not all upset etc., with our cadets here online. My heavens, they've really contributed SO MUCH to our discussions, knowledge, etc. I just wanted to "gently push" back with a "...be nice" thought...

Of course, it's that fighter pilot "gentle nudge" that showed...

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Seamonkeydo]

I was once told...

Never tell your dreams or goals to anyone, unless you know that that person could help you achieve those dreams or goals. Some people have a problem hearing that your goals are higher than theirs.

It applies here.

 

[Christcorp]

I'm a rabid USAF person!

Steve, you're my brother. But if you start "Foaming at the mouth", I'm putting you down.

Drink MORE Weed. It will cure you.
mike

 

[vullnnoid]

I am a rabid anti-dentite

 

[Christcorp]

Never tell your dreams or goals to anyone, unless you know that that person could help you acheive those dreams or goals. Some people have a problem hearing that your goals are higher than theirs.

It applies here.

Monk; I don't know if I really agree with that. I DO in general, but not here or at the academy. This forum, and the academy, is not "real life". It's not the same society that you grow up and live in. You're taking 1300+ individuals, where 90+% of them have Type-A personalities. You're combining them with 3000+ other individuals where about 90+% of them also have Type-A personalities. You're in an environment where almost everyone there was a BIG fish in a LITTLE pond. Now, they are all the same size in a BIG pond.

Imagine being at MIT or Harvard........ OK, now imagine bragging about your high school GPA and wanting to be Suma Cum Laude of the class..... This is not the University of WhereverthehellIlandedinsteadofhere. This is the same as Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc...

You can definitely mention your dreams to others. But what is important, is that you RESPECT, ASK ABOUT, ENCOURAGE, and SUPPORT the dreams of your classmates and other cadets at the school. When you say you want to be an F-22 pilot and work your way to being a NASA pilot, definitely be proud of that. Then, before you've had a chance to be "Complimented" or "Admired" by others, ask them what THEY want from the academy. What their dreams are. And be as excited FOR THEM, as you want them to be excited FOR YOU.

If you're not enough, without the compliments and approval of others, you'll NEVER be enough with it. Mike.....

 

[raimius]

Reality check: There are good and bad leaders everywhere.
Some BCT cadre WILL screw up. Some appointees WILL screw up. Some basics WILL screw up. etc. etc...

I think Flieger's "fighter pilot nudge" was more than some were expecting, but it is a VERY good point. If you EVER enter a situation thinking, "this person needs to be put into their place," you need to think VERY carefully about why you are doing so. EVERY action in training needs to have a purpose, and ALL of those purposes must further the goal of making superior people.

Some cadets (BCT cadre, most noticeably) will screw this up. If they (or you) start to tear someone down just because you can, you need to correct that, ASAP. Cadre entertainment isn't the goal. Belittling mistakes isn't the goal. Developing outstanding people is the goal. If you actions aren't supporting their development, YOU ARE WRONG.

caveat: now, that isn't to say that some people need to have their attitudes fixed. Some basics will be arrogant. Some will need some strict attention from cadre. Just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

 

[sprog]

I am kind of speechless.. Flynn is not only noteworthy, but out the door. She was on the covers of major magazines, like Time/Newsweek. She was the poster girl. I am not saying that missiles are not important, but it is not the same as a woman who could be shot down over enemy territory and captured,

You are actually implying throwing a missile from thousands of miles away in a safe location is the same as dropping a missile while SAMS are targeted on your jet. Jeannie Flynn and Nicole Malachowski (Fifi) are well aware that there is a difference.

I am sorry, but you do not understand the accomplishments of these women.

Where in my post did I say anything which could possibly be construed as ding against these two women? You stated that the two women (Flynn and "Fifi") are the only ones who could possibly consider being "Wing Queens" in the USAF (this itself is outrageous, but whatever). The tense you utilized in your post made it seem as if the two officers had not yet been selected for the position of Wing Commander, but that such a promotion was certain to happen. I was merely stating that there has been a woman Wing Commander in the USAF (she was my commander at Minot). I included this, because from the way you made it seem in your post, you were of the opinion that a woman had not yet been selected to command a wing. A missile wing is a combat command.

I'm not implying anything about the fighter community vs. the missile community. Don't put words in my mouth, as I'm perfectly capable of articulating a point on here.

While we're on the subject, I'd like to extend my thanks to you for for saying that missile duty is not as cruicial as flying in a fighter. I guess nuclear deterrence isn't that big of a deal, and it was no big deal that my former Wing Commander was entrusted with the most lethal weapons ever devised by mankind. I mean, after all, she didn't sit in a fighter plane. Thanks, too, for the implication that my service as a missileer is "not the same" as flying a fighter. Since we sit "in a safe place," I guess we aren't as deserving of your accolades. Maybe you should tell that to the men and women who kept us from being blown to smithereens during the Cold War.

 

[Lilly]

Pass the popcorn, please.

 

[flieger83]

caveat: now, that isn't to say that some people need to have their attitudes fixed. Some basics will be arrogant. Some will need some strict attention from cadre. Just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

Dead on accurate Raimius!

Shack!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[flieger83]

Steve, you're my brother. But if you start "Foaming at the mouth", I'm putting you down.

Drink MORE Weed. It will cure you.
mike

"Drink MORE Weed..."



While that will cure "what ails you..."

OUCH!!!

Steve

 

[Pima]

While we're on the subject, I'd like to extend my thanks to you for for saying that missile duty is not as cruicial as flying in a fighter

Want honesty...here it is...YES, I think Jeannie Flynn and those that get their arses shot at are at a different level!

Did I say that missileers were not vital? NO! I said there is a difference in your life on the line because a SAM is on your butt and pushing a button. You were the one that stated Fighter Command. I just said we have not yet had a Wing Queen regarding Fighter Air frames. I am sorry you misconstrued my post.

FWIW I never took it as a ding against Jeannie or Fifi, I was trying to illustrate that if the barrier will break, regarding fighters it will be them.

 

[sprog]

Want honesty...here it is...YES, I think Jeannie Flynn and those that get their arses shot at are at a different level!

Did I say that missileers were not vital? NO! I said there is a difference in your life on the line because a SAM is on your butt and pushing a button. You were the one that stated Fighter Command. I just said we have not yet had a Wing Queen regarding Fighter Air frames. I am sorry you misconstrued my post.

FWIW I never took it as a ding against Jeannie or Fifi, I was trying to illustrate that if the barrier will break, regarding fighters it will be them.

You did not state anything about command of "fighter airframes" in your post. If I "misconstrued" it, it is because you miscommunicated your point.

"Sitting on your butt pushing a button," huh? Probably the most insulting thing I've ever read on this forum. Thanks for insulting an entire community of people in the USAF.

Also, if the "button" ever had to be pushed (it's actually a key that you turn), it means that the people who launched the missiles would be destroyed by incoming ICBMs. I think that might put them slightly at risk. Not to mention the whole threat of fire, security issues, and countless other real and potential disasters which have killed missile crewman in the past. But then again, our service "is just not the same" as sitting in a fighter, so it doesn't really count.

I have the utmost respect for pilots/aircrew. It would do you well to respect those who don't fly, but who nonetheless contribute to national security.

I'm finished with this thread.

 

[Stealth_81]

I have been watching this thread throughout the day, and I have refrained from interfering up to this point because no rules of the forum had been violated.

Now we have had insulting behavior, which to me is the same as a personal attack. So, I am coming here to remind everyone about the rules, and how they work. Please feel free to discuss and to debate, but at no time should you make derogatory comments directed at any person, or group of people.

Sprog, I hope that you continue to contribute and be a part of this community. I am sorry that I wasn't able to head this off earlier, but as I said, I was watching for violations of the rules.

I will leave the thread open, and you can feel free to continue the discussion, as long as everyone is treated with respect.

If anyone has questions or comments for me, please let me know, either in the forum or via PM.

Stealth_81
Moderator USAFA Forum

 

[Lilly]

Is it just me or did it just get really cold in here?

Anyway, I'll be rooting for Mars Girl to do really, really good, just like I was rooting for Mars Boy until the unfortunate cartoon incident.

Here's to youthful exuberance

 

[eagle36]

couple quick notes, since it's way past bedtime since we're waking 4 digs up soon:

1) I stand by that she has a poor attitude. Confidence is great; arogance is not
2) If she is like Mars boy, then she's talk and no backbone. He was a terrible cadet and even worse at academics.
3) As for "special attention", a few key points
___a) the special attention (from my personal experience with Mars boy) normally lasts a few hours. The bus, footprints, maybe getting into the squad. It's the fact that "hey, we heard about you", and make them think. Then it's all equal. Show us what you have or don't, like him, and him, and her, and him. We (at least Mars boys cadre last summer) treated him like everyone else.
___b) every class has a few "those kids". honestly, cadets (and classmates) enjoy them. it's something to look back at and laugh at. my class had the "MySpace" group, and we still joke around about how funny it was.
4) As to "GET A LIFE": in the world today, info gets out fast. people get bored and do random searches for games, videos, and news. then one button and its out to the wing. Cadet, as busy as we are, take time to decompress, and online articles (and forums like this!) are some ways people relax.

Honestly, it's always blown way out of proportion online. Cadets and appointees and others can hide behind our screennames and say whatever. in fact, people who aren't cadets can pretend to be or cadets can act as ROTC kids. you don't really know.


So bottom line, please don't categorize all cadets as evil and mean and rude and needing-a-life, just as we shouldn't classify officers as old and out-of-the-loop or moms as needy and overprotective. kids will be kids, and everyone will learn in their due time. At the request of the BCT commander this summer, her profile is now "hidden".



And to finish with a part of my previous post:
If she does (learn and change her attitude), great for her and hopefully she can reach her dreams.

 

[Luigi59]

So bottom line, please don't categorize all cadets as evil and mean and rude and needing-a-life, just as we shouldn't classify officers as old and out-of-the-loop or moms as needy and overprotective.

Frazier ducks, throws a wild overhand left, Foreman counters with crushing right hook, DOWN GOES FRAZIER! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!