no help from BGO

[marciemi]

Really, they're no-brainer answers that you'd be astounded that candidates would say. Some examples of things I've heard (between nomination interviews and WP candidate interviews):

-I'm just here because my parents want me to be.
-My parents want me to apply to Navy like my brother so I'm applying to WP because I think it would be easier.
-I'm only applying just in case I don't get into Navy or AF which is where I really want to go.
-I'm just planning on doing my 4 years and getting out.
-I really want an Ivy but just in case I don't get in I figure WP is a big name school too that will help me in business.

Another issue is a complete lack of knowledge about the Army. I don't expect candidates to know a lot, but with some I've gotten the impression that they've really never considered that going to West Point means that they will in fact be in the Army some day. Same for knowledge about West Point. I realize not everyone can afford a visit, but if they've never read a book, seen a video, and have no clue about the honor code or Beast, it makes me very leery that they have any idea of what they might be getting into.

Some things that wouldn't be a deal-breaker but also just astound me:

-Showing up late (especially as much as 30 minutes) and not even calling or texting to let me know (particularly annoying when I'm sitting at a central location like a restaurant or mall).
-Wearing a t-shirt and shorts (or jeans/sweats) to the interview. If a candidate asks me, I will always tell them to dress casually (and then this would be fine), but if not, well, to me it's a job interview.
-Not bringing a resume (or a listing of activities, etc.) when I've specifically asked them to.
-Having their mom or dad call me to arrange scheduling, locations, ask what their chances are, etc. I did have one candidate who was active duty and in this case it made sense that his mom had to handle a lot of the paperwork, but for a normal high school student - no.

I'm sure there are a lot more but those are just a few off the top of my head. And probably any one of these wouldn't be critical if the rest of the interview was positive (we all say things we wish we hadn't in retrospect ) but when I get 3 or 4 of them (especially from my top list) from a candidate - well, it's pretty obvious they haven't done their research and this really isn't a priority for them.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

I just have one more nibble of advice to add to the OP on top of what ScoutPilot and buff have already clarified:

Time for a road/plane trip?? I don't know where you are located geographically but if your son is interested it's time to get on post!
Seriously, if at all possible have your son make a candidate visit to West Point. Even if he is only qualified for a day (as opposed to overnight) visit; he (and you) will be given a tour, he will sit in on classes and have lunch and he will have an opportunity to interview with the "Officer of the Day". A RC will pull his file and sit down with a one on one and review his file.

 

[MemberLG]

[QUOTE I do know that probably at least 3 candidates I interviewed this year ended up with it hurting their file - l.

Either hypotheticaly or in your actual experience what are some scenarios during an interview that could end up hurting a candidate's file?[/QUOTE]

agree what Marciemi posted.

An addition I will make is a candidate expecting a "red carpet" treatment - i.e. I am good so West Point should be recruiting me.

 

[usna1985]

First, I know about USNA and not USMA admissions, so be warned up front.

However, a couple of general matters that are pretty universal from what I understand based on conversations with MALOs and ALOs:

Not getting an interview is NOT death to your application. It appears there are insufficient MALOs for WP; for USNA, you have volunteer BGOs and some of them don't get the job done. The SAs recognize this and don't punish candidates for it.

For USNA (and I supposed USMA but that's only a guess), it's hard for a BGO to "tank" your application. If we want to ding someone, we'd better have specific facts (such as raised by a poster above). The fact that I and an o/w well-qualified, well-spoken candidate don't "hit it off" is not going to result in a bad write-up and certainly won't kill his/her chances. I gave a poor write up (justified) to a candidate and he/she received an LOA. So there!

Similarly, a great writeup helps a tiny bit (for USNA) but will NOT make up for an otherwise average record. IOW, the BGO can't get you in.

For USNA, teacher recs are MUCH more important than BGO comments -- yet candidates don't seem to worry about those.

Finally, the comments that can turn off an interviewer are universal. I agree with the ones above.

Also, take the time to read the catalog. I get annoyed when people tell me they want to major in criminal justice (not offered at USNA), nuclear engineering (not offered at USNA), etc. As noted above, I don't expect people to be walking experts on USNA but an attempt to find out about the school using publicly available sources is a good thing.

One last comment . . . I personally am not put off by someone who tells me another SA is his/her first choice and would rather they tell me the truth than lie (I.e., USNA is my VERY FIRST choice, they get a USNA appt, and then when I go to the school awards ceremony, I see them going to another SA. Yeah, they could have changed their minds but I always wonder). I only want to ensure that person would truly be happy/satisfied at USNA.

 

[marciemi]

An addition I will make is a candidate expecting a "red carpet" treatment - i.e. I am good so West Point should be recruiting me.

I haven't had a lot of these, but my favorite was the candidate who received an email telling him he needed to retake the CFA because he had failed the pushups. He replied TO THE RC (who forwarded me the email) saying that he was too busy to retake it, that he should be just allowed to take the pushups and not the entire test, and it would be a major inconvenience to him.

Incidentally, this candidate spent much of the interview talking about Ivies. He was considered for an LOA (this was a couple years ago) and based on my interview did not get one. He did end up getting an appointment. And guess what? He turned it down for an Ivy!

One last comment . . . I personally am not put off by someone who tells me another SA is his/her first choice and would rather they tell me the truth than lie (I.e., USNA is my VERY FIRST choice, they get a USNA appt, and then when I go to the school awards ceremony, I see them going to another SA. Yeah, they could have changed their minds but I always wonder). I only want to ensure that person would truly be happy/satisfied at USNA.

Definitely a good point. I am as put off by candidates who tell me they went to USAFA SS, have always wanted to fly fighter jets, want to major in Aero Engineering, etc. but WP is their first choice. No, they've never visited. What's that? Oh, yeah, helos are fine. I guess.

I guess what I was trying to say was regarding candidates who I fully don't think would go to WP unless it was their last option, and really haven't looked into it. I always ask about (and encourage them to apply for) ROTC - when a candidate tells me they applied to USNA, USAFA and both AF and NROTC but not AROTC - well, I have to assume they really don't want to be an Army officer. If a candidate tells me their first choice is AF because they want to fly, but they are also drawn to WP for the leadership/troop time and because they want to major in International Relations that's a lot different than the person who tells me they didn't even ask for a nomination to WP from their MOC's because they wanted AF and Navy more (yes, I've had multiple candidates say that). Kind of pointless wasting both of our time doing the interview if they aren't even attempting to get a nom.

One more red flag is the candidate who is completely set on only one option - particularly if it's not a very probable one. Med school and law school are big ones. Yes, I realize it's "possible" to do it out of an academy, but personally I never knew anyone who managed to. Most of my classmates who eventually became doctors or lawyers did it after getting out of the Army. When I try to explain this to candidates (to make sure they're okay with being in the Army if they DON'T end up at med school) and just get an "oh, I'm sure I'll be able to" reply, particularly if I'm looking at their 27 ACT score, again, I'm concerned that this is someone who will quit at some point when they realize their goal/plans aren't exactly in line with what they will end up doing!

 

[Vista123]

One more red flag is the candidate who is completely set on only one option - particularly if it's not a very probable one. Med school and law school are big ones. Yes, I realize it's "possible" to do it out of an academy, but personally I never knew anyone who managed to. When I try to explain this to candidates and just get an "oh, I'm sure I'll be able to" reply, particularly if I'm looking at their 27 ACT score!

LOL

 

[kinnem]

failed the pushups. He replied TO THE RC (who forwarded me the email) saying that he was too busy to retake it, that he should be just allowed to take the pushups and not the entire test, and it would be a major inconvenience to him.

Got time to do the pushups but not the other 20-30 minutes (or whatever it is) to do the rest? I'm surprised the guy even got an appointment. Obviously pretty full of himself. I'm actually glad he went to the Ivy. Hope he is a proctologist somewhere today. LMAO.

 

[TheDukeOfEarl]

Got time to do the pushups but not the other 20-30 minutes (or whatever it is) to do the rest? I'm surprised the guy even got an appointment. Obviously pretty full of himself. I'm actually glad he went to the Ivy. Hope he is a proctologist somewhere today. LMAO.

That was a dirty crack.

 

[MemberLG]

If a candidate tells me their first choice is AF because they want to fly, but they are also drawn to WP for the leadership/troop time and because they want to major in International Relations . . . .

Hey do we expect 17/18 years to display such wisdom? I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation, but I don't see it often.

I served on several Congressional nomination boards and see too many Navy only,being from MD. Sometimes, I will ask the following question "Not to put words in your mouth, but you are telling us that you want to attend the Naval Academy to serve/protect our country as a Naval officer." The reply is usually "yes." Then I will ask "so tell us why you can't serve/protect our country as an Army/Air Force/Coast Guard officer." I usually don't get an asnwer back.

 

[dunninla]

I"oh, I'm sure I'll be able to [get into Med school]" reply, particularly if I'm looking at their 27 ACT score,

True. I find that HS juniors and seniors in anything but a very competitive High School have no idea that no matter how hard they study, how much they want it, if they have scored under say, 740 on the SAT sections, or under 32 on the ACT sections, that their brain just might not be wired for Standardized Testing (MCAT), which is at least 50% of the decision criterion for admission to Med School.

Then they would be shocked that many large University Bio departments have very strict Bio 1, Bio 2, Chem 1, Chem 2, Ochem grading curves (all these courses are required for Med School application, plus Physics and Calculus) that are designed specifically to eliminate 2/3 of the entering pre-meds in the very first year. The second year (especially O-Chem) eliminates another 20-25%, leaving viable med school GPAs with only about 10% of the entering pre-meds. The cut is brutal. At my DD's school (this is published data), an A grade is reserved for 16% of the first year Bio courses, rising to 25% for 2nd Year, and then 31% for upper division. They ALL study their brains out, going so far as to attempt to memorize not just the text but also the footnotes, but only one in ten gets the requisite % of A grades in the designated med school application courses.

These kids really have no idea. It's probably not unlike the shock that soldiers get under their first enemy fire.

 

[usna1985]

Sometimes, I will ask the following question "Not to put words in your mouth, but you are telling us that you want to attend the Naval Academy to serve/protect our country as a Naval officer." The reply is usually "yes." Then I will ask "so tell us why you can't serve/protect our country as an Army/Air Force/Coast Guard officer." I usually don't get an asnwer back.

This is a toughie in areas like greater Washington DC where there are a lot more candidates than slots.

f you apply to more than one SA, you run the risk that you'll get noms/appointments to your 2nd and 3rd choices. I just had a candidate complaining that she has 2 noms to USMA, none to USNA, but her first choice is USNA. I'm guessing she listed both with her MOCs and, for whatever reason, she got those noms.

I told her she should be thrilled to have 2 noms to a great school like WP from an area as competitive as ours. [And no, I'm definitely not being sarcastic.]

However, here's the dilemma. She was willing to serve as an Army officer but it's apparently not her first choice. Would she have been better off putting all of her eggs (noms) in the USNA basket? It takes a lot of maturity to explain that you're willing to serve anywhere but your real preference is X. B/c the next questions are" "Then why are you applying to Y?" "Would you still go to Y if you don't get an appt to X?"

Those are VERY difficult issues for anyone, let alone a 17-yr-old, who may have no prior exposure to any branch of the military.

I guess what I'm saying is that not everyone is equally anxious to serve in every branch and IMO that's ok, at least with me.

 

[kinnem]

This is a toughie in areas like greater Washington DC where there are a lot more candidates than slots.

f you apply to more than one SA, you run the risk that you'll get noms/appointments to your 2nd and 3rd choices. I just had a candidate complaining that she has 2 noms to USMA, none to USNA, but her first choice is USNA. I'm guessing she listed both with her MOCs and, for whatever reason, she got those noms.

I told her she shoeuld be thrilled to have 2 noms to a great school like WP from an area as competitive as ours. [And no, I'm definitely not being sarcastic.]

However, here's the dilemma. She was willing to serve as an Army officer but it's apparently not her first choice. Would she have been better off putting all of her eggs (noms) in the USNA basket? It takes a lot of maturity to explain that you're willing to serve anywhere but your real preference is X. B/c the next questions are" "Then why are you applying to Y?" "Would you still go to Y if you don't get an appt to X?"

Those are VERY difficult issues for anyone, let alone a 17-yr-old, who may have no prior exposure to any branch of the military.

I guess what I'm saying is that not everyone is equally anxious to serve in every branch and IMO that's ok, at least with me.

Same here. I can certainly understand folks who have a family tradition at one of the academies wanting to attend there. Or even if its not family but everyone else in the neighborhood who is, say, former Navy.

 

[marciemi]

Hey do we expect 17/18 years to display such wisdom? I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation, but I don't see it often.

I was just trying to say that I feel better if they can give me a reason why they are considering WP if their first choice is really AF or Navy, other than "I'm applying to all 3 academies just so I have a better chance of getting one". Which is fine if they really would be happy with any of them, but not as much so if they really want to fly for the AF.

Those are VERY difficult issues for anyone, let alone a 17-yr-old, who may have no prior exposure to any branch of the military.

But the problem is that they're going to have to make that decision before they DO get any exposure (most likely) to any branch of the military. I don't fully understand how someone will apply for all 3 nominations/academies just in case and say at the nomination interview that they really don't know which they want yet but will decide once they get an appointment. Somehow I frequently get the feeling that they think they'll suddenly get a great flash of inspiration between March and May. If that will be done by a visit, talking to members of various branches or online research - why can't it be done before Nov/Dec instead of later? (Barring the expense of a visit). It's not like the military is going to change dramatically 3 months down the road!

 

[usna1985]

But the problem is that they're going to have to make that decision before they DO get any exposure (most likely) to any branch of the military . . . I frequently get the feeling that they think they'll suddenly get a great flash of inspiration between March and May. If that will be done by a visit, talking to members of various branches or online research - why can't it be done before Nov/Dec instead of later? (Barring the expense of a visit). It's not like the military is going to change dramatically 3 months down the road!

I fully agree. You have to decide sometime, might as well be in August rather than in May.

However, that can be why someone only applies to one SA and thus, when an MOC nom comittee person asks "Why wouldn't you be willing to serve in the [other services]?" they have trouble answering. They would be willing to serve in one or more other services but they've decided to cast their lot with only one b/c it's their first choice and doing so gives them the best shot at a nom and thus an appt. [Of note, those with Pres noms have more options.]

Just like ROTC. I didn't apply to ROTC -- only to 2 SAs (USCG and USN b/c I wanted to be on a ship -- never was but that's another story.). In my case, I either wanted to do 100% military or be 100% civilian. I may have been nuts, but at that time in my life, that was my desire. So, I try not to fault candidates who aren't applying to ROTC, provided they can discuss their decision intelligently.