Preference Rankings

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JAM,
I really can't fathom how you take this process so lightly. For competitive states where the MOCS talk, this is a HUGE issue.

This candidate or any candidate is risking being tied to a particular branch for at least 9 yrs. Sorry, but in CO, they share the wealth when it comes to noms. That means, if you place every SA on because you flipped a coin you can actually find yourself with one NOM and one alone to an SA you really don't want!

Next, let's go back to the interview process. "Sir, I decided I wanted USNA over USMA because I flipped a coin". I am sure that will go over well with the nom committee.

This is deja vu. Have we not had this conversation previously and determined this is NOT true? It doesn't make any sense - otherwise how would anyone be able to 5 and dive?
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Actually we agreed that is the actual system, except the TA is a tweaking, but it basically ends up at 3 yrs from the last time you apply for the TA. You seem to have forgotten the way it works is they NON VOL for a PCS, do not take TA after 2 yrs in, and do not accept O3 rank. That is how they dive at 5. When you separate from the military you can give notice a yr out, thus, if you you are to PCS during the yr, they won't do it since you are leaving. However, we go back to the fact that schools, PCS and promotions play into the equation with the diving.

Jam, as an AD or AD/DS how many people do you know that were able to 5 and dive? I can tell you as an AD/DS in the flying world I never met one who got to leave at the 8 yr pt to the date. Heck, even our maintenance and intel friends didn't leave at the 5 yr to the day marker.

Yet again we got off topic, the fact is the majority of the posters here agree, don't flip a coin. This is a life decision that will impact you every which way from Sunday. Take the time, and apply for the branches you want to serve in. If you have no desire to be in that branch than don't put it down.
 
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I really can't fathom how you take this process so lightly. For competitive states where the MOCS talk, this is a HUGE issue.

This candidate or any candidate is risking being tied to a particular branch for at least 9 yrs. Sorry, but in CO, they share the wealth when it comes to noms. That means, if you place every SA on because you flipped a coin you can actually find yourself with one NOM and one alone to an SA you really don't want!
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PIMA - why on earth would a candidate flip a coin for an SA he/she does NOT want?
Think about the issue here.
No candidate is at "risk" for spending 9 years doing anything they do not want - during the nomination process. Please do not make it sound like a candidate signs their life away by submitting a nomination application.
BTW - it is really 12 years. 4 years at the academy, plus 8 years service. All service contracts are for 8 years, surely you know this?
 
Do not flip a coin. Take the process seriously and make a decision after you have considered the pros and cons of each service and talked to service members of the branches you are considering.
 
Jam, as an AD or AD/DS how many people do you know that were able to 5 and dive?
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You don't know any AF grads who did not 5 and dive? I guess that must be because the only ones you know went to flight school. Don't confuse the additional service years incurred by choosing to fly with the initial academy service commitment.
During the height of the Iraq war, some West Point grads were FORCED to remain on AD and were unable to switch to reserve or IRR due to a STOP LOSS.
In the meantime, their Navy and AF brothers had a choice to choose a career path that would allow them to 5 and dive.


Take the time, and apply for the branches you want to serve in. If you have no desire to be in that branch than don't put it down.
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Good Lord, we do agree!!!
 
It is actually quite difficult to get out of the Army at the 5 year point. As PIMA mentioned, many factors come into play. But, to dispel some myths, at least where the Army is concerned...

Per AR 350-100 Officer Active Duty Service Obligations

"Section 2-5 A commissioned officer who accepts a promotion does not incur an ADSO."

...

Section 2-6 c. Officers reassigned on PCS from an overseas location to continental United States (CONUS) or from a CONUS location to another CONUS location incur a one-year ADSO computed from the date of arrival at the new duty station."

Overseas PCSes can require up to a 3-year ADSO, depending on the DEROS forth duty location. But, the 3-year ADSO is not a blanket policy.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Negative ghost rider.
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I'm sure she's wanting to count "Inactive Reserve" time. But that really isn't a practical way of looking at it. It's 9 years. (4 at the academy and 5). As for 5-and-dive; yes many do it, and it's possible. But Pima is correct. You pretty much have to turn down everything. If you want anything out of the time you spend in the service, you pretty much have to give more time. Then again, you could get really lucky. Your first assignment could be your dream assignment. You spend your time there, work on grad school on your own, turn down just about any other education and reassignments. Then you can pretty much get out at 5. And yes, many do indeed do such a thing. The only additional anything they do after being commissioned is basic PME like ASBC Air and Space Basic Course (If they still have that) or similar; depending on the branch of service.

There are definitely those who 5 and dive. However, there are also a lot, because of opportunities or situations, will stay in a bit longer than just 5 years. Not necessarily 20 years; maybe 7-8; but that's very common. When I first came into the air force, I had every plan on doing my initial time and getting out. Then I was offered an assignment to the Netherlands.... Hmmmm? Ok, I'll stay a little longer. Then it was an assignment where I had the opportunity to work TDY for JCSC and do a lot of TDY's to some awesome places like Ecuador, Panama, Columbia, etc... Then there were promotions. Then I took an overseas assignment again. Well, I didn't want to get out of the military directly from an overseas assignment with no job lined up. Next thing I know, it was 21 years later and I was retiring.

Point is, applying to a military academy is a very important step in a person's life. But just as important is: "What if you actually get in?" "HOLY GUACAMOLE BATMAN!!!!" Well, you've got a minimum of 9 years you've got to spend in that branch of the military. Add on at least 1 or 2 more if you're offered a really good assignment.

This is a very serious matter. Don't be flipping a coin to choose where you want to be. I guess if 2 choices were identical; you had the same equal passion for both services; you're just as excited for both academies; then maybe I can the "Coin Flip". But if one is your preference, then pick that one. If you really don't know which one to pick, then you don't know enough about the military branches of service. You need to back up 10 yards; get to using google (You're young, you know how to use the internet); and learn as much as you can about the different branches of the military, their missions, their lifestyles, etc... and then choose. Definitely have a backup. But if Army is your #1, then that is what you should put down. And if Navy is your backup, then put that down. Nothing wrong with getting your 2nd choice if you know it's your 2nd choice and you voluntarily put it down as such. But you have to choose what you want. Not what we recommend. When my son was applying, he was pretty clear that he really only wanted air force. He mentioned being "Willing" to accept an appointment to another academy. I gave him my opinion that he shouldn't accept an appointment if it wasn't what he wanted. So he applied only to air force. No 2nd choice. No priority list for the MOC. Simply wrote Air Force on the first line and left the others blank. He decided that if he didn't get an assignment, he'd go in OTS. So, to each their own. Make the decision for you. Do what you think is right. You don't need to flip any coins. Just choose what you want. If you have a 2nd choice, put that down as your 2nd choice. If you don't know what branch of service you want, then you have other issues you need to resolve first. Best of luck to you. Mike....
 
LineInTheSand said:
Negative ghost rider.
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scoutpilot said:
It is actually quite difficult to get out of the Army at the 5 year point. As PIMA mentioned, many factors come into play. But, to dispel some myths, at least where the Army is concerned...

Per AR 350-100 Officer Active Duty Service Obligations

"Section 2-5 A commissioned officer who accepts a promotion does not incur an ADSO."

...

Section 2-6 c. Officers reassigned on PCS from an overseas location to continental United States (CONUS) or from a CONUS location to another CONUS location incur a one-year ADSO computed from the date of arrival at the new duty station."

Overseas PCSes can require up to a 3-year ADSO, depending on the DEROS forth duty location. But, the 3-year ADSO is not a blanket policy.
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Not to go too far off track, but when it comes to retiring, isn't there a set time that you must maintain a rank in order to retire at it. I've been retired for 10 years now, but it use to be 2 years. Then again, they also changed I believe to where they average out the last so many years to determine retire pay. Hell, the rules change to fast to keep up with sometimes.
 
For LTC or COL, an officer must serve not less than 3 years in that grade to retire at said grade. For promotion to LT, CPT, or MAJ, an officer must serve in grade not less than 6 months to retire at that grade.
 
Christcorp said:
Not to go too far off track, but when it comes to retiring, isn't there a set time that you must maintain a rank in order to retire at it. I've been retired for 10 years now, but it use to be 2 years. Then again, they also changed I believe to where they average out the last so many years to determine retire pay. Hell, the rules change to fast to keep up with sometimes.
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This thread is about initial commitments, not retirements. What scoutpilot quotes is basically true for all three services. There is no commitment for making rank and basically, except for reporting to overseas duty, no commitment for accepting PCS orders. Schooling, etc. of course incurs further obligation. Much of it can be served concurrently, however.
 
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Christcorp said:
I'm sure she's wanting to count "Inactive Reserve" time. But that really isn't a practical way of looking at it. It's 9 years. (4 at the academy and 5).
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Perhaps for the AF this is true. However. for the Army, due to Iraq, many officers were retained unvoluntarily on active duty beyond their five year commitment. Also, the Navy, in order to meet IA commitments for both Iraq and Afghanistan, was recalling inactive reserve Academy grads to fill these commitments. So, it is indeed a practical way of looking at it.

For the Navy, at the five year point in their career, their initial sea duty is complete and they are at a midpoint in their first shore duty assignment. Since they are home every night and the pay is good, many will complete this assignment past their five year mark prior to resigning their commission. However, I would still consider them "five and dive"rs. I hate that term.
 
Mongo said:
Huh? We are discussing exclusively DoD policy here. I can only think of three services that would, by default, fall under DoD directives.
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Three service academies or three services? If it's service academies, I'm sure you're refering to USMA, USNA, and USAFA....if you're talking services I'm wondering who your leaving out. It wouldn't be like a Navy officer to forget his shipmates....and I assume you know the Army exists. That would leave the Marine Corps or the Air Force, with the assumption that you've forgotten the Coast Guard.
 
I hope the OP really is long gone. His head must be going in circles. First he is told if he picks a branch to do a certain job, he must have a back up. But the back up can't be another branch - even if he would like a job in that branch as well.

Now he is told that he only has to serve 5 years after graduation but that he won't be able to get out at 5 years.

I am beginning to think the Army is the only branch that is honest with their candidates. My daughter was told speficically numerous times that her service commitment was 8 (EIGHT) YEARS of which at least FIVE must be served on Active Duty. All Enlistments are 8 years, even if someone tells you he has a three year enlistment, that is the minimum. ROTC service commitments are 8 years - even if their scholarship dictates 4 years AD. The military can and will keep you (or call you back) if they need you. I suggest that folks read their service obligation contracts carefully.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/a/getout3.htm
it's always better to know the whole truth rather than the sugar coated truth.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Three service academies or three services? If it's service academies, I'm sure you're refering to USMA, USNA, and USAFA....if you're talking services I'm wondering who your leaving out. It wouldn't be like a Navy officer to forget his shipmates....and I assume you know the Army exists. That would leave the Marine Corps or the Air Force, with the assumption that you've forgotten the Coast Guard.
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I suppose he's technically right, insofar as the Marine Corps is not a separate department, but is governed thru the Navy.
 
Mongo said:
Huh? We are discussing exclusively DoD policy here. I can only think of three services that would, by default, fall under DoD directives.
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Oh, you know, I just like to knock a chip off a shoulder every now and again. :shake:
 
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