Preference Rankings

[d.mcknight]

Okay as far as the flipping the coin thing goes, I somewhat agree but also disagree. I mean, I don't think it should be the sole basis of your decision, especially if the parents are doing it. I understand what is being said though. Two choices, flip a coin, if your disappointed with what comes up, maybe the other is where you want to be. Now like I said, you should also be putting a lot of thought into where you want to end up. But it's certainly an interesting experiment if you will....

Now as far as the animals in a cage thing goes, thank you LITS for making me crack up. I almost choked on my Klondike bar!!!

 

[Candidate2239]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for replying to my thread(and please keep the replies coming). Unfortunately between multiple practices and schoolwork, I haven't had time yet to read the latest responses- but I certainly will. Thanks again.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Two choices, flip a coin, if your disappointed with what comes up, maybe the other is where you want to be.

Bingo! I have actually done this with my kids' to help with their decision making. It is a good opener to a discussion about pros and cons to each decision. When I do it to them, I don't explain it.
I just pick up a coin, tell them choice A is heads and choice B is tails and flip. I tell them which side won - that is the decision and wait. Generally there are two reactions - one is Yesssssss! I was 'hoping' choice a would come up (my response then - why the agony?? haha).
Sometimes they say - hey wait! I didn't really want that choice! (My response AGAIN - why the agony?)

This is a great psychological exercise to get at one's GUT feeling. Kids' are sometimes afraid of making a decision or making the wrong decision. They want mom and dad to tell them what to do. Flipping a coin takes this out of mom and dad's hand and forces it back to the kid.

Pima - it would behoove you to actually read peoples posts before you go off on your knee jerk lectures. They are getting rather tiresome.

As for the AF comment - everyone who has hung around as service academy for more than 10 minutes will meet kids whose parents are career officers and who always "knew" they would follow. For these kids, I suppose no coin flipping is necessary, the decision was made for them at birth. So, yes, the comment can be re-written substituting Army or Navy freely.

 

[Mongo]

Okay as far as the flipping the coin thing goes, I somewhat agree but also disagree. I mean, I don't think it should be the sole basis of your decision, especially if the parents are doing it.

"Heart' versus logic. There are certain decisions in life where logic should play the predominent role. Being a ski bum or going to college, for example. However, when all the decisions are equally good, provided one has done their research, the 'heart' might easily be the overriding factor. Go with the reaction from the coin flip.

The only problem for a parent is that they lose control of the decision making process and, short of deception in intentionally misreading the responses, have lost all input in the matter.

Once they have made their decision, they will become part of a group of like-minded individuals who will support each other and they will never look back.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Which coin would you recommend JAM?

 

[scoutpilot]

Pima - it would behoove you to actually read peoples posts before you go off on your knee jerk lectures. They are getting rather tiresome.

Kettle, this is Pot, over. Come in, Kettle...

 

[Bullet]

The situation posed by this thread once again brings up a thought that has always been in the back of my head: with all this push and effort from the Senior Leadership to get everyone to think "Jointly", why hasn't the military pushed for a "Joint Service Academy" for young men and women in this situation, sure they want to serve in the military, but unsure on where they want to serve? Perhaps a two year institution where the "cadets" can select which specific Military Academy they would want to finish their Junior and Senior years at when they complete their sophomore year? This way, they can attend a service institution, learn which service is the best fit for them, and make an informed decision rather than go with a gut-feeling or personal (and uninformed) intuition?

Just a thought.

But this particular situation, and some of the responses, also reminds me of what I told sister-service members when they complained about my particualr service and how "easy" we had it (which I took for poorly disguised jealousy): "Don't blame me because you chose poorly".

JAM, I understand what you were getting at, and can see some of the logic involved in your psycho-babble, but we're talking about one of the most important decisions in this young man's life here and I think you've missed the mark on your advice, by a long shot (BTW, you're insinuation that we "forced" our son into his decision based on my experience wasn't as "veiled" as you thought it was (despite your silly and obviously false objections that it was not intended as such), and very much not appreciated.) Mongo, you're unscorable at 6 as well.

The advice should be plain and simple: do your homework first, and discover what makes one service more desirable for you than the others. The MOC has a very valuable commodity to give away (his nom), and is asking you to choose your preference for his own purpose, which could be for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps the MOC is thinking "why should I give this kid who can't make up his mind a nom when I have a bunch of other just as qualified kids who have a specific desire in mind?" Or perhaps he is thinking "This kid is only concerned with getting a free ride somewhere, and really doesn't have "service first" in mind" (not saying this is the case, just saying what he may be thinking). Or perhaps he s thinking "This kid really hasn't done his homework, and that scares me". Again, all speculation. But the fact remains this MOC has stated his requirements; it's up to you to meet them.

I've got a better analogy for you: a row of 5 pretty girls. You get to marry one. JAM would have you just flip a coin and see what your reaction is to the outcome. Mongo also wants you to marry that girl based on your gut / heart feeling on the outcome. After all, they're ALL pretty, right?

You REALLY want to make that marriage decision (which is hopefully a life long decision) without first talking to the girls and doing a little research to see which one you like best? You'd rather rely on a coin flip and a gut reaction?

MY advice: do what the MOC wants; do your homework. Research the different services, look into the different opportunities, ask the questions here. And find the service that best fits YOU. Tough choices, hard to ask of anyone, let alone a young man just starting out in life. But if your diligent, and honest in your desires and expectations, you really won't need to rely on a coin flip or the reaction to it.

Just my $0.02

Bullet

 

[Bullet]

Re-reading Mongo's post, I now see that he DOES mention the coin flip analogy can be successful PROVIDED ONE DOES THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

I agree with Mongo's assessment that the heart / gut feeling will come easily once you've done the proper research. I can no longer edit my post due to time limitations, but request the mods go back and remove my references of him in my post.

Mongo, I should have been more careful in my reading skills, and you have my sincerest and humblest apologies for including your words in my discussion of the poor advice given here with the coin flip example. Again, I am sincerely sorry if this has caused you any angst.

 

[Christcorp]

One thing that is "Sort of" missing is our opinions to "OTHER" options. We concentrate on the 5 Federal Military academies. Air Force, Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and Merchant Marines.

We also have a section and many conversations about ROTC. That seems to be the "Natural" alternative. However, "Alternative" is a bad description. That implies that the "Federal" Service academies are the "Preferred" means of becoming a commissioned officer. If we don't get selected for that, then we apply to ROTC. I believe we need to mention more often the options "IN BETWEEN". I say "In Between" because the Federal academies like West Point and Annapolis are FULL TIME military. ROTC is definitely PART TIME military. But what about some of the "In-Between" like "Private-State College level Military Academies"?

* The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina (Charleston, South Carolina; four-year public college)
* North Georgia College and State University (Dahlonega, Georgia; four-year public university)
* Norwich University (Northfield, Vermont; four-year private university)
* Texas A&M University (College Station, Texas; four-year public university)
* Virginia Military Institute (Lexington, Virginia; four-year public college)
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (Blacksburg, Virginia; four-year public college)

There are also others. The thing about these schools, are they definitely are military oriented; very much like the federal military academies. They do utilize the ROTC academic structure like a more traditional ROTC program in a university. However, many, like the Virginia Military Institute, allows their graduates to choose a commission in ANY of the armed forces upon graduation. Also, you can graduate from VMI and decide NOT to serve time in the military services at all if you change your mind. You can go onto a civilian career.

Guess what I'm saying is: Schools like the Citadel, VMI, Texas A&M, etc... are also an option. Especially for someone who really likes the idea of military service, feels compelled to serve their country, wants more military lifestyle than ROTC, but doesn't know which branch is really right for them. Anyway, just my $0.0248384

 

[Pima]

CC not only are they an option, but for some it is the best route.

Nobody expects every 17 yo students to know their life plan. Many want to serve in the military, but are unsure of how to fulfill this desire. Attending one of these fine institutions/universities will allow them the time to select the perfect fit for their personal goals.

OBTW, VPI in VA is known as VA TECH...GO HOKIES!

Now, let's really place the rubber to the road. You get selected to interview before the MOC selection committee for a nom. They ask:

You are asking for a nom for each SA, WHY?

or

You placed Navy above Army in your selection, WHY?

Are you going to say I pondered this myself, and posed this questions to others, their response was I should flip a coin and see if I smiled regarding the results? Of course not!

You not only need to get a grasp on your situation regarding racking and stacking SAs, but you need to understand that it is highly likely your MOC will ask the same question to you that you posed here.

Rubber meets the road, are you willing to say to the MOC committee I decided Army 1st, Navy 2nd, CG 3rd, and AF 4th because me and my best buds did rock, paper, scissor or we flipped a coin? LOGIC here, says NO! You will say to them I racked and stacked because my ULTIMATE GOAL AS AN OFFICER IS...


Right now it is only about preference for the NOM, but further down the line you may have to explain in front of 1/2 dozen people on the nom committee why you selected this preference, while they bombard you with what is the latest book you read not assigned, do you agree we should have a set drawdown date for Afghanistan, why did you get a C in AP Physics last semester, your biggest regret, your biggest achievement...etc. Not meaning to scare the Bee Gee Gees out of you, but these are typical questions thrown at you, and better yet, there could be 6,8,10 committee members for the interview tag teaming regarding your answers...i.e.looking back on your biggest regret would you change anything you did?

FWIW candidates put to much emphasis on clothing and not enough on how they will be hit with a ball out of left field.

Again do you want to say for this one interview that you are asking for a nom to multiple SAs, I flipped a coin? Because the reality is another candidate will walk in say, I racked these SA's in this order because when I get commissioned as a 2nd LT my goal is to serve in these branches as XYZ. Should the MOC give you the nom who only cares about the SA or should they give it to the candidate that understands they will owe 5 yrs AD at least?

 

[LineInTheSand]

One thing that is "Sort of" missing is our opinions to "OTHER" options. We concentrate on the 5 Federal Military academies. Air Force, Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and Merchant Marines.

While USCGA, USMMA, USMA, USNA, and USAFA are all Federal Service Academies, only USCGA, USMA, USNA and USAFA are considered military academies. Midshipmen at USMMA are not subject to the UCMJ. Minor point, not all the important to the overall discussion.

 

[Mongo]

Or perhaps he is thinking "This kid is only concerned with getting a free ride somewhere, and really doesn't have "service first" in mind" (not saying this is the case, just saying what he may be thinking).

Bingo. Deep dark dirty politically incorrect secret. There are many who see the Service Academies simply as a source of a free quality education and see service to their country as nothing more than an equitable payback for that education. You cannot tell me that anyone who truly wants to serve and has researched it thoroughly does not have a preference as to how they want to do it. So for those who want a free education, flipping a coin is as good a way to determine which Academy as any. Just another form of querying their district to see to which SA they have the best opportunity of being selected and adjusting their desires accordingly. Each I/A Day sees 1200 new cadets/midshipmen at the front door. There are 1200 individual reasons to be there. Some are more noble than others. But for each and every one, it must be a reason that will cause them to strive to continue, even in the darkest hour.

Do a survey. No matter how much you wish it differently, "service first" is way way down the list of reasons to attend a SA. Actually almost 100% of the time, any use of this statement is simply what they think the interviewer wants to hear, not what they really think.

 

[Christcorp]

Mongo, I rarely agree with you, but you are definitely correct that many applicants are looking at the education, and the military service part of the equation is simply their "Work Program" to pay off their version of a "Student Loan".

I have found however many that truly do want to serve their country in the military. They have felt this way for many years. Someone like my son has wanted the military since he was about 11 years old. Granted, being a military brat does lean some applicants that way; other far from it. One thing however is that even though many do in fact want to "Serve their country". The overwhelming majority don't actually understand what that means or entails when they actually have to do it. But at least their "Motives" are genuine and noble. There are some applicants, my son being one of them, who had options. The academy wasn't their only "Free Education". My son had Full-Ride (Including stipends for spending money), to numerous universities. Some, very prestigious. He turned down Michigan State, Tulane, USC, and a few others. All offering him scholarships. 4 were 100+% full-rides. So a "Free Education" was definitely not the motivating factor for my son, or quite a few others I have had the pleasure of assisting in their academy application. A couple years ago, I watched an individual turn down Yale University to go to air force. And they had received enough scholarships and grants that they wouldn't have had any student loans at all.

So while many apply and attend the academies for numerous reasons, "Free Education" being probably one the main reasons, there are some that truly want to serve their country. Albeit that have absolutely no idea what that means or what they're getting into.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

JAM, I understand what you were getting at, and can see some of the logic involved in your psycho-babble, but we're talking about one of the most important decisions in this young man's life here and I think you've missed the mark on your advice, by a long shot (BTW, you're insinuation that we "forced" our son into his decision based on my experience wasn't as "veiled" as you thought it was (despite your silly and obviously false objections that it was not intended as such), and very much not appreciated.)

First the OP was talking about what to put on the NOMINATION form. NOT which appointment to accept. Please keep this all in context.
He was talking about RANKING not making a lifelong decision.
He probably already knows what he prefers but wants to make the "right" decision. Stuff gets in the way - which academy gives me my best odds, what do my parents think, I got an email from this coach. All frivolous and all messing with the mind.

Flipping the coin is simply ONE suggestion to show the candidate how he truly feels. Once he figures that out his problem is solved and he doesn't have to think any further. If he is a Believer, he could get on his knees and say a novena asking for a sign; the next day, he passes and Army convoy and Eureka!! That is my sign! I pick Army!! The reality is - he probably really wanted Army all along. (especially since he missed the "A Global Force For Good" billboard).

BTW - Some posts on here seem contradictory. On one hand folks advise to look at the branch - if you want to fly choose AF, if you want the sea choose Navy, if you want tanks choose Army. The reality is - regardless of what you want you need to be open minded and flexible. Life has a way of getting in the way and as much as you want to do something, you might be thrown a curveball.

In 4 years I know of two kids who applied to ONE academy in HS. They applied to the one they wanted - no other. IN both cases, the admissions officer kindly informed them no appointment would be forthcoming (color blind and a medical DQ) and referred them to another academy.
Both waited a year, applied to the other and abolutely did very well. One is a Star Cadet and will make an awesome Army Officer in two years.

I don't buy the notion - that "just wanting to serve" is not enough. Some kids will take whatever comes their way and make the most of it.

As for the snarky comment - I concede it was snarky. I was going to say Army but did change my mind at the last second. It really was not directed personally at Bullet Jr. and I apologize. My fingers got ahead of my brain as I do not appreciate being attacked in a condescending tone for my OPINION. I thought this was a place to share viewpoints and I suppose it is as long as you follow the party line.

However, in a less snarky tone - let me say this: if you spend 10 minutes at West Point you will meet a cadet (there are lots of them) who are very forthcoming that they are there because their Dad went there. Plenty of Cadets and Mids were 'conditioned' from birth by their parents to attend a certain SA. You might know some and I am not passing judgement on any of them. For these kids, there is no 'choice' (sadly, sometimes) for they are doing what was expected.
For kids with no military experience, mentors etc -- it's a completely different decision to make and their perspective is different.

LITS idea is moot because you don't need a nomination for the USCGA. This is about a Nomination, after all.

 

[Pima]

First the OP was talking about what to put on the NOMINATION form. NOT which appointment to accept. Please keep this all in context.
He was talking about RANKING not making a lifelong decision.

Who says he will get an apptmt to every SA?

Let's keep this in context, you put your name in for a nom, and in a very competitive area, you might only get one nom. and that might be to an SA you don't want.

This is NOT A LIFELONG DECISION...but, as sure as sh*t it is a 9 yr decision! 9 yrs to a 45 yr old is the same as it is to a 17 yo PAINFUL if you don't wan't to be there.

AGAIN, THIS MIGHT NOT BE LIFELONG, BUT IT IS A LONG TERM DECISION ESPECIALLY FROM A 17 YO STANDPOINT!

 

[Mongo]

.

JAM, I understand what you were getting at, and can see some of the logic involved in your psycho-babble, but we're talking about one of the most important decisions in this young man's life here and I think you've missed the mark on your advice, by a long shot (BTW, you're insinuation that we "forced" our son into his decision based on my experience wasn't as "veiled" as you thought it was (despite your silly and obviously false objections that it was not intended as such), and very much not appreciated.)

Psycho-babble?? LOL.

And what is wrong with influencing one's offspring? My son still thanks me profusely every time he has to deal with the AF for threatening to disown him if he answered the AFA's invitation to apply.

 

[scoutpilot]

AGAIN, THIS MIGHT NOT BE LIFELONG, BUT IT IS A LONG TERM DECISION ESPECIALLY FROM A 17 YO STANDPOINT!

The decision to attend a SA, and attend the one I did was a decision I made at age 17. I'm now looking at 30 years old and that one decision determines how often I see my wife, how many times I get shot at and how many times I shoot back. Or shoot first. It determines the diet I eat and the clothes I wear and whether or not I have the chance to get a graduate degree. It determines what time I wake up and where we can make our home. It determines the friends I have, the places we go, and the memories we will carry with us.

It's a long term decision, like it or not.

 

[flieger83]

The decision to attend a SA, and attend the one I did was a decision I made at age 17. I'm now looking at 30 years old and that one decision determines how often I see my wife, how many times I get shot at and how many times I shoot back. Or shoot first. It determines the diet I eat and the clothes I wear and whether or not I have the chance to get a graduate degree. It determines what time I wake up and where we can make our home. It determines the friends I have, the places we go, and the memories we will carry with us.

It's a long term decision, like it or not.

Well said, and I'm now 50.

Starting to think about retiring...darnit!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Pima]

And let’s not forget that it affects the friends your wife and kids have, the places they live, the memories they have and the choices they may make.

It is hard to have a 17 yr old fathom any of that.
For many they see they can do a 5 and dive, but they have yet to realize that reality rarely meets theory. They have yet to understand how the commitment process of schools/training, promotions, PCS and TA will take them to 5 and dive to 20 and out.

Right now their concern is believing any SA will make them happy without thinking about the long term result which is AD for yrs. Sitting in a tank, on a boat, in a cockpit or desk sounds fine and dandy, the branch does not matter, it is all the same to them since they have yet to live the life. Flying a helo is flying a helo, plain and simple, because it is all about flying the helo, they are targeted on that one fact, not the fact that flying a helo in the CG or Navy is not the same as the Army. Same with being an Intel officer or a Med. officer.

Getting the 48 hr notice of 120 day +/- to the other side of the world is not on their radar. Everyone of us can tell them it happens, but it will fall on deaf ears. Kind of like them believing texting while driving kills. Yep, it does, but just not them.

It really needs to be stressed to any candidate asking for a nom, that the service be #1, not the nom. There are MOC's that spread the wealth, which means if they put every SA on their list for the pure reason of asking, they could land up with getting one and only one nom to the SA they don't want. Our DS asked for only one SA, he got all 3 MOCs for that one SA. Our friends son asked for 3 SA's and he got one nom to the SA he didn't want.

The state you reside in should play into the preference ranking. Come from a state that is highly competitive (VA, NY, CO, CA, etc) and you can find yourself serving in a branch that you never wanted just because you flipped a coin.

The nom process is important, but you need to see the big picture because it will be 9 yrs of your life AT LEAST. Like TPG just stated, it impacts your life, but it is also impacts everyone that touches your life too. Being married is not in your mind right now, nor are children, but once you learn how the commitment issue works it will be. I.E. PCS voluntarily and you owe 3 yrs. Accept a promotion, and you owe 3 yrs. Accept TA and you owe 3 yrs. Now try to get all of those 3 commitments to work simultaneously. Take a bonus or a specialty training and it is even harder! Bullet could not retire at 20 because he was forced to decide between a remote or a PCS. He chose the PCS and that meant he had to stay until 21. In the 21 yrs Bullet was AD, I never met anyone who was able to leave the day their original commitment was up. Granted in the flying world the commitment is longer, but I still didn't meet anyone who could bail 8 yrs to the day they graduated UPT, most bailed at the O4 point, which can range from 10-11 yrs....or in other words 32-33 yrs old, way longer than what they thought when they asked for a nom. NOT saying you can't bail out 5, just saying you need to understand that it might not happen.

I get to decide if I wish to shave or not

It is so funny how many of our friends (Bullet included) decided to sport the soul patch after they retired. I guess it was 20 yrs of being forced to shave.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

they see they can do a 5 and dive, but they have yet to realize that reality rarely meets theory

Huh????? plenty of SA grads 5 and dive.

Come from a state that is highly competitive (VA, NY, CO, CA, etc) and you can find yourself serving in a branch that you never wanted just because you flipped a coin.

What does this even mean??? If you don't want to serve in a branch then don't pick it. If your MOC calls and asks you to accept a nomination to a branch you do not want then do not accept it.

PCS voluntarily and you owe 3 yrs. Accept a promotion, and you owe 3 yrs. Accept TA and you owe 3 yrs

This is deja vu. Have we not had this conversation previously and determined this is NOT true? It doesn't make any sense - otherwise how would anyone be able to 5 and dive?

Look this is about a NOMINATION. May is a looonnnnggg way away and this is when the commitment is made - if offered. Applying for and accepting a Nomination is NOT a commitment.
This is a kid who can't decide how to rank his choices - NOT which choice to make. Since many nomination packages are due next month, he might was well flip a coin at this stage. There are plenty of kids who would be happy with one or more services. Some MOC's actually like this since it shows patriotism and a willingness to selflessly serve.
IMO, at this stage be honest. If you attempt to game the system it could backfire on you leaving your MOC to wonder how you could rank more than one SA as #1.

IF you don't get your #1 choice, then you can decide if you will take #2 if offered. If you do not want it do NOT accept it. If you accept it, don't look back.
If you don't get your #1 AND you really want it and no other then you can wait a year and reapply, pursue a commission through ROTC or both.

Finally, I am at a loss to wonder why having a #1 branch and a back up branch is a bad idea. Plan A and plan B is encourage through the process - Plan A a SA and Plan B ROTC; Plan A to fly and Plan B to forecast weather.