QNS Letters have started going out

Would passing over the more qualified candidate in favor of a diversity goal not be in violation of Title 10?

No, the Title 10 is about how many and does not specifically address how to determine best qualified. So in theory, if a SA decides to give a Congressional vacancy to a candidate that does not have the higest WCS in the Congressional district, it still met the Title 10 requirement of appointment someone against the vacancy from the MOC nomination.

Also, to increase ones WCS based solely on race, color, or gender, not be in violation of equal rights laws?

No, unless there is a specific part in the WCS grading sheet (if there is such thing) says race, color, or gender.
 
Yep, I got a QNS letter and i've got my plan B in full force. it really stinks being told by the review board that I had the best file, but WP didn't pick me for #1. oh well, OSU here I come !
 
Yep, I got a QNS letter and i've got my plan B in full force. it really stinks being told by the review board that I had the best file, but WP didn't pick me for #1. oh well, OSU here I come !

Which review board said that? The nomination review board for your MOC?
 
Yep, I got a QNS letter and i've got my plan B in full force. it really stinks being told by the review board that I had the best file, but WP didn't pick me for #1. oh well, OSU here I come !

Im confused. I thought I saw you posted earlier under appointments for class of 2016 that you received an appointment:

33. quadething, Nov.22, Congressional, TX-17

quadething, Nov.22, Congressional, TX-17
 
Each member of Congress can use ANY METHOD THEY WANT TO DETERMINE THEIR VACANCY WINNER. Title 10 does not put ANY restrictions on how they pick their vacancy winner. Of course, that vacancy winner DOES NOT get an offer unless they are declared FULLY qualified by West Point. Most MOCs have a panal of people (usually including some local retired West Pointers) to interview the candidates and make recommendations to the MOC. However, this is just a recommendation. In my Congressional District last year the MOC picked the person ranked #2 by his board which is his right. (My son got in from a Presidential nomination). The person ranked #1 was put on the NWL and did not get an offer.
The vast majority of MOCs want to send the very best people in their District to WP. However, the "best" as determened by the MOC, and the best as determined by WP can be different. However, MOCs are political people so I am sure that this is a factor in some cases.
 
for those anxiously waiting

Well, as a mom whose beloved DS received the TWE in June last year (arrghhhhttp://www.serviceacademyforums.com/images/smilies/cool.gif) I gotta say I think the last year has ended up being an incredible experience for DS. So despite being nervous about chiming into a contentious thread I just want to tell anyone out there that is anxiously waiting or started to feel despondent that your life will not be over if you fail to get an appointment. DS applied only to USNA last year; goal was to become a pilot (visions of landing on aircraft carrier in rough seas come to mind). Mailbox stalking did not cause BFE to magically arrive in mailbox, and by April faces around our house were quite glum. DS asked and was told he was a very good candidate, but as scoutpilot states graphically in this thread, there were candidates out there with better grades. So he was told to go to college, do well (mostly A’s) and re-apply. At this point DS really had to think about what he wanted. Did he want to fly?(because he didn’t necessarily have to go to the academy to become a pilot). Or did he want to serve his country? (and he realized he didn’t have to go to the academy for this either as there might be an option for ROTC, or he could go to college and then sign up after he graduated). He pretty quickly came to the conclusion he first wanted to serve his country (well and then fly……what is it about flying????) and decided to re-apply, this time to all academies to maximize his chances. Next decision: which college? Unfortunately our state college, which would have been the cheapest option, has only a 17% 4-year graduation rate due to over-enrollment in current economy and inability to get classes. DS would not be able to get English fall semester, and maybe not Calculus. (If you are in this situation in college and can’t get the classes you need then try to add the class after school starts. As a Professor if a motivated student came to me and explained the situation I would let them add if I could). We looked at preparatory schools as most parents and students on the forum stated the preparatory schools were an excellent experience. DS choose Greystone, a 4-year University plus preparatory school that met his need for college curriculum. I liked the idea of a preparatory school because he would get some exposure to the military (I wanted to be sure he knew what he was getting into - I was trying to convince him to go to college and become a doctor…….hey it seemed safer and remember this is BELOVED DS) and I liked the idea that he would automatically be in a small peer group all highly motivated with similar goals (we know in higher education that the transition from HS to college is HARD…….we try to get freshman into FIGs, small groups of freshman interested in the same thing, as this type of peer group increases their chances of staying in college and doing well). So off he went to college. We knew even if he did his best, he still might not get in, so plan B was ROTC. He did well, and has grown tremendously as a person. He says his study and time management skills have improved. He has identified a major (engineering) that he is very interested in (in case that flying thing doesn’t work outhttp://www.serviceacademyforums.com/images/smilies/shake.gif). He met people from all branches of the military and even had the opportunity to help with the wounded warrior program, which was a privilege. AND………he received a principal nomination from Senator for USAFA, congressional nomination to USMA, and just a week ago received his APPOINTMENT TO USMA!! Though I think he would have figured all this out if he had been accepted last year, this year I’m sure he will go and FLY (metaphorically speaking). So I guess the morale of the story is: hang in there! Wanting to serve your country shows your dedication and compassion. Managing to complete that darned application shows drive and perseverance. You will be highly successful no matter what happens but I hope your BFE comes in the mail soon (and if you end up next year with my DS tell him to phone home more often!!).
 
So I guess the morale of the story is: hang in there! Wanting to serve your country shows your dedication and compassion. Managing to complete that darned application shows drive and perseverance. You will be highly successful no matter what happens but I hope your BFE comes in the mail soon (and if you end up next year with my DS tell him to phone home more often!!).

Thank you for a clear minded, level headed perspective. Best of luck to your DS. Sounds like the kind of kid I want mine associating with.
 
Each member of Congress can use ANY METHOD THEY WANT TO DETERMINE THEIR VACANCY WINNER. Title 10 does not put ANY restrictions on how they pick their vacancy winner.
I should have been more specific. When the Academy does the selection, they are required by Title 10 to select the most qualified. Here, for example, is the portion promulgating guidance for the NWL (boldface mine):
If the annual quota of cadets under subsection (b)(1), (2), (3) is not filled, the Secretary may fill the vacancies by nominating for appointment other candidates from any of these sources who were found best qualified on examination for admission and not otherwise nominated.
I don’t think there is any argument that the method of “examination” devised by the Academy to select the “best qualified” is the WCS system. I also don’t think there is any argument to the aforementioned statements in this thread that the highest WCS wins:
…………………….
The candidate with the highest WCS wins.
………………………………..
The common misconception on this thread that the Academy does not have to give the highest WCS the appointment (boldface mine):

No, the Title 10 is about how many and does not specifically address how to determine best qualified. So in theory, if a SA decides to give a Congressional vacancy to a candidate that does not have the higest WCS in the Congressional district, it still met the Title 10 requirement of appointment someone against the vacancy from the MOC nomination.
is in violation of Title 10 and cannot be true. Again only discussing the selection process where the Academy decides, not the
Title 10 portion of the law where the MOC can pick whoever he wants.

Most would argue that, when the Academy selects, to give the appointment to anyone other than the candidate with the higher WCS would be in violation of Title 10. Additionally, most would argue that to give a candidate extra WCS points based solely on “race, color, religion, sex, or national origin“ would be in violation of Title 8.



No, unless there is a specific part in the WCS grading sheet (if there is such thing) says race, color, or gender.
I think we agree. With any record before the board, I am most positive that they are aware of the race, color, or gender of the candidate.
 
I should have been more specific. When the Academy does the selection, they are required by Title 10 to select the most qualified. Here, for example, is the portion promulgating guidance for the NWL (boldface mine):

(e) If the annual quota of cadets under subsection (b)(1), (2), (3) is not filled, the Secretary may fill the vacancies by nominating for appointment other candidates from any of these sources who were found best qualified on examination for admission and not otherwise nominated.

This portion of the Title X does not have to do with selection off the NWL, if that is what you are referring to.
It is about guidance for filling the unused slots allotted for Presidential noms, RGARMY and RSCOM.
Any of the unused 100 slots for PRES, unused 85 slots for RGARMY or unused 85 slots for RSCOM can be used as noms for those that are 'not otherwise nominated'.
Also, note that this says, 'nominating for appointment'. This language is not used for MOC noms so therefore I have interpretted (and maybe wrongly) that those receiving these unused slots are given direct appointments and do not go on the NWL. Again, I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am. :wink:

This is the section that has to do with the NWL (Bold added by me):
(5) 150 selected by the Secretary of the Army in order of merit (prescribed pursuant to section 4343 of this title) from qualified alternates nominated by persons named in clauses (3) and (4) of subsection (a).(MOC NOMS)

Note the 'order of merit' part. Those 150 selected must be by order of merit. IOW - the top 150 by WCS.

Then to fill the rest of the class (bold added by me):
If it is determined that, upon the admission of a new class to the Academy, the number of cadets at the Academy will be below the authorized number, the Secretary of the Army may fill the vacancies by nominating additional cadets from qualified candidates designated as alternates and from other qualified candidates who competed for nomination and are recommended and found qualified by the Academic Board. At least three-fourths of those nominated under this section shall be selected from qualified alternates nominated by the persons named in clauses (2) through (8) of section 4342 (a) of this title, and the remainder from qualified candidates holding competitive nominations under any other provision of law. An appointment under this section is an additional appointment and is not in place of an appointment otherwise authorized by law ( 3:1 of Congressional to Service connected noms)

Frankly, in re-reading Title X ( my favorite past-time :sleep:), I don't see where there is any legal mandate to WP as to how they choose the vacancy winner of a Competitive slate. We are told they do it by WCS, but there is nothing legally binding about doing it that way. Selecting by WCS comes into play with the NWL.
 
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I think we agree. With any record before the board, I am most positive that they are aware of the race, color, or gender of the candidate.

It is illegal to use race as an admissions "points earning" evaluation criteria. I believe the supreme court made that clear in Gratz v. Bollinger.

In Grutter v. Bollinger, though, the court ruled that a University could "favor" ethnic minorities to increase "Diversity". I believe Scout Pilot has already talked about this methodology recently on this forum.

My understanding, from reading these forums, is that congressional vacancy winners are the candidates with the highest whole candidate score and that race is not taken into account in determining these scores and thus not taken into account in determining the winner of the district (I am not talking about those candidates chosen by their congressmembers directly). That would meet the requirements in Gratz v. Bollinger.

Now, I think Title 10 gives the service academies the ability to select candidates out of order after selecting the top 150 (if there is room in the class). The remaining slots will go to Soldiers, Minorities, Athletes, Leaders, Scholars.

I also believe that the service academy prep programs help the academies to reach these goals. USMAPS is for manly Soldiers, Minorities, Athletes while the Association of Graduates scholarship is primarily for Scholars and Leaders.

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but I think that is what I understand from numerous postings. Buff, Big Nick or Scout Pilot can correct me if I am wrong.

What does this all mean? Well, to limit the diversity discussions for West Point (or other service academies) to minorities leaves out the other areas where West Point strives for diversity.

The Service Academies are required to allow candidates to compete from every congressional district and if there is a qualified candidate from a congressional district with a nomination, that individual is getting in. Title 10 also limits the number of candidates that can come from a congressional district nomination to 5 at a time at the academy. Thus, for every top notch candidate from northern virginia that doesn't get in there is a "not so top candidate" from some "not as competitive" area who is getting in.

Is this fair? That just because someone if from a rural community they have a better shot at getting in then someone from a Washington Suburb? Depends on how you look at it. Congress believes that it is important to have geographic "diversity" in its military.

Additionally, half the board of visitors for West Point are members of congress and I am sure they are briefed on the admissions processes. If congress wanted to change the use of additional slots at West Point for Minorities they could easily change title 10. Their inaction (and in fact action, in allowing the additional slots) means that they support the use of these slots for further "diversity."

As was said earlier, if you disagree with how the service academies do their admissions process, call your congressman, West Point appears to be just following the law. It is a perfectly logical argument that diversity should not be an admissions goal, but it is obviously not one that congress agrees with.

To suggest that a candidate did not get in, though, because of minority candidates getting in is simplistic and presumptuous. If congress decided to eliminate diversity as a goal, they could just as easy remove those extra slots and give them back to the congressional districts.
 
Which review board said that? The nomination review board for your MOC?

Im confused. I thought I saw you posted earlier under appointments for class of 2016 that you received an appointment:

Yes, the MOC review board said that at our banquet for nominees. It was really hard with everyone telling me how excited they were to hear and I had to tell them I wasn't in. So many former Army officers told me this and its very disheartening. I told them about OSU though.


and I've had 1700 people ask about that, i ended up not getting the vacancy after MOC sent it to WP
 
Yes, the MOC review board said that at our banquet for nominees. It was really hard with everyone telling me how excited they were to hear and I had to tell them I wasn't in. So many former Army officers told me this and its very disheartening. I told them about OSU though.


and I've had 1700 people ask about that, i ended up not getting the vacancy after MOC sent it to WP

I don't think this is making sense...

Your MOC board told you that you had the best file. So were you or were you not the principle nominee?

If you were the principle nominee, were you not 3 Q'd? Your signature says NWL so I can only assume you were 3 Q'd.

If you were not the principle nominee...why? It seems odd to be told you have the best packet but not be the principle nominee.

If the MOC folks told you that but didn't give you the principle spot, then that's on them and not on WP. They have a bit of explaining to do if that's the case. How you could tell folks publicly that Candidate X had the best file but not make him the principle nominee is beyond me.
 
. . . .How you could tell folks publicly that Candidate X had the best file but not make him the principle nominee is beyond me . . ..

Gaming the system - my nomination board discussed it before. If the board thinks the applicant is above average, don't need to make him or her a pinciple nominee as he or she will get appointed through another nomination or off of the national waiting list.
 
Gaming the system - my nomination board discussed it before. If the board thinks the applicant is above average, don't need to make him or her a pinciple nominee as he or she will get appointed through another nomination or off of the national waiting list.
Possibly. I have seen it happen. Also, the MOC could have submitted a competitive list and still told a few candidates that they had very strong, or the strongest, package. What the MOC thought was the strongest package and what USMA Admissions determined was the strongest package might not necessarily be the same. And MOCs bearing good news get votes.
 
Gaming the system - my nomination board discussed it before. If the board thinks the applicant is above average, don't need to make him or her a pinciple nominee as he or she will get appointed through another nomination or off of the national waiting list.

Possibly so. I put that situation solely on the MOC if that's the case.
 
Having gone through the process I have a feeling I may know what happened to quad in this instance. Last year when my son received his nominations, a couple of the representatives mentioned to him that they felt he had the strongest file they were submitting. Being new to the process, we were all very excited! Time went by and we heard NOTHING! We were still pretty confident - all the way until he received his QNS letter in April - BOOM goes the dynamite!
Unfortunately, if your MOC submits a competitive slate to WP, it doesn't fully matter what the MOC believes is the strongest candidate - the nomination review board will look at the entire file of the candidate and make their decisions. The MOC's file is not as complete as the file on hand at West Point! Remember, West Point will continue to get all candidate updates until Feb 28th - by then all MOC's will have submitted their slates!
I think that quadething's MOC representatives may have eluded to him that he had the strongest file, but unless he was the primary vacancy candidate it doesn't guarantee anything! Good luck at OSU!
 
Gaming the system - my nomination board discussed it before. If the board thinks the applicant is above average, don't need to make him or her a pinciple nominee as he or she will get appointed through another nomination or off of the national waiting list.

Well then, I guess they lost at the game. Its sad that they might have put the candidate into that situation. Quade, if your file is that good, you should apply again next year. Some college might help.
 
Well then, I guess they lost at the game. Its sad that they might have put the candidate into that situation. Quade, if your file is that good, you should apply again next year. Some college might help.

If "they" are the nomination board, they lost little. The reality is that the board members might feel bad for a little bit. Otherwise, nothing they can do other than not to do it next year.

A kid, in theory, that really work hard to be the best he or she can be lost.
 
It is illegal to use race as an admissions "points earning" evaluation criteria. I believe the supreme court made that clear in Gratz v. Bollinger.

Not true. In the companion case Grutter v Bollinger, the Court UPHELD the allowance of race-based admissions, by a 5-4 vote.

In no way did that case make it illegal. In fact, the Court upheld the constitutionality of affirmative action in order to further the compelling interest of diversity. The SAs use it (race) as the primary factor in meeting "diversity goals."
 
yessir, I will probably re-apply.

The MOC told me personally he felt I had the strongest file but he has no military experience so decided to send the vacancy choosing to WP, and he said he expected me to get it...Sadly I didn't. It bothers me they base SO much on SAT scores. I get my new scores back tomorrow (prev. 580 670 580) but I'm pretty sure thats why WP picked the other candidate. I met him...I have about 8 inches in height and 50-70 lbs on him but its about the file and not the candidate it seems. haha I was hoping my varsity football experience and I told them I was going to walk-on but I guess that didn't add! hopefully something can happen and I can come back from QNS to picked up or something but I don't have much faith in that.
 
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