QNS Letters have started going out

[BigNick]

Quad - a sad tale. I fault the MOC represetatives. THE ONLY AGENCY THAT CAN OFFER OR PROMISE ADMISSION IS THE WEST POINT ADMISSIONS OFFICE. Unless the MOC made you the vacancy winner (evidently he did not), he or the local FFR have no authority to give you the impression that you would be accepted. If the MOC thought you had the best file he should have made you his vacancy winner.
It appears that the MOC submitted a slate of up to 10 nominations and let West Point decide. How the MOC ranks his people and how West Point ranks the candidates CAN AND OFTEN ARE VERY DIFFERENT.
Based on my experience on the Admissions Board, I suspect that your relatively low SAT scores were your downfall. To be really competitive these scores need to be in the 650-720 range with no scores in the 500s.
If you are a great football player I suggest you contact the West Point coaches and see if they are interested in you. If so, they might be able to get you in with these scores.

 

[GoArmyBeatNavy]

Not true. In the companion case Grutter v Bollinger, the Court UPHELD the allowance of race-based admissions, by a 5-4 vote.

In no way did that case make it illegal. In fact, the Court upheld the constitutionality of affirmative action in order to further the compelling interest of diversity. The SAs use it (race) as the primary factor in meeting "diversity goals."

Did you read my post, where in line 2 I said:
"In Grutter v. Bollinger, though, the court ruled that a University could "favor" ethnic minorities to increase "Diversity". I believe Scout Pilot has already talked about this methodology recently on this forum." The use of minority status is not allowed as a means to evaluate a candidate but it can be used to increase "Diversity" as goal at the institution.

 

[Luigi59]

Did you read my post, where in line 2 I said:
"In Grutter v. Bollinger, though, the court ruled that a University could "favor" ethnic minorities to increase "Diversity". I believe Scout Pilot has already talked about this methodology recently on this forum." The use of minority status is not allowed as a means to evaluate a candidate but it can be used to increase "Diversity" as goal at the institution.

If there are 2 remaining candidates for 1 slot and race is used as the selection criteria (to increase "diversity") than it absolutely was used to evaluate a candidate.

 

[Hoffy600]

To be really competitive these scores need to be in the 650-720 range with no scores in the 500s.
If you are a great football player I suggest you contact the West Point coaches and see if they are interested in you. If so, they might be able to get you in with these scores.

BigNick: I saw on another thread that to be competitive in the NWL one needs to have 700's and above. If what you said is true, then would my scores of 680 M 690 CR 700 W still put me out of the competitive range? I think I'm right one the cusp of the cut-off, from what I can understand.


(that being said, I understand alot more goes into competitiveness than just SAT scores, but I am specifically referring to the smaller class size and the "cut off" for SAT scores.)

Thx alot, Hfy600

 

[GoArmyBeatNavy]

If there are 2 remaining candidates for 1 slot and race is used as the selection criteria (to increase "diversity") than it absolutely was used to evaluate a candidate.

I am just stating what the court said. The first case said you could not use race as a "points earning" evaluation of a candidate. The second case said you could weigh race in an effort to make a more diverse student body. Obviously you disagree. How do you feel about "evaluating" a candidate based on their state and district domicile? Or is your only objection using minority status. Both would seem to be out of the control of candidates.

 

[fball100]

Based on my experience on the Admissions Board, I suspect that your relatively low SAT scores were your downfall. To be really competitive these scores need to be in the 650-720 range with no scores in the 500s.

I know the Writing score is the least important but how unimportant is it because I have Math and C. Reading scores in the 730 to 690 range but a 550 for writing.

 

[Luigi59]

How do you feel about "evaluating" a candidate based on their state and district domicile? Or is your only objection using minority status. Both would seem to be out of the control of candidates.

I favor eliminating Congressional nominations..

Use a merit-based nationwide competition, ensuring the most qualified are appointed without regard to geography, and eliminate race as a factor completely.

 

[toadleegold]

I know the Writing score is the least important but how unimportant is it because I have Math and C. Reading scores in the 730 to 690 range but a 550 for writing.

my ds had 720 + m, 700+ r, 700+ w, 4.2+ weighted gpa (many AP classes), top 10% in a VERY tough school (I know in many schools, this would be top 3% range), good leadership and awards, 4 years sports, passed physical with flying colors...etc. was told no issues what so ever but didn't win the principle nom since he came from a very competitive district and got the qns letter...just like that. heart breaking to ds who worked so hard for this and thought he had a good chance. he is still praying to get a suprise letter later, but getting prepared for plan b. I don't know what else he could have done and very proud of him and his efforts. I just can't help wonder tough...how many were actually better than him? I guess we will never know. Good luck to all.

 

[Jcleppe]

my ds had 720 + m, 700+ r, 700+ w, 4.2+ weighted gpa (many AP classes), top 10% in a VERY tough school (I know in many schools, this would be top 3% range), good leadership and awards, 4 years sports, passed physical with flying colors...etc. was told no issues what so ever but didn't win the principle nom since he came from a very competitive district and got the qns letter...just like that. heart breaking to ds who worked so hard for this and thought he had a good chance. he is still praying to get a suprise letter later, but getting prepared for plan b. I don't know what else he could have done and very proud of him and his efforts. I just can't help wonder tough...how many were actually better than him? I guess we will never know. Good luck to all.

The truth is, there isn't anything else he could do.

I guess the easy answer would be....There were just enough applicants seen to be better then your son. Better is probably not the right word, different may be better. Other applicants may have been Captain of one more sport, SAT's may have been ever so slightly higher, 20 more community service hours, Eagle Scout, any number of things can make the difference.

My older son went through this, while he considered the USMA, his SAT's were not stellar, he opted to just apply for the ROTC Scholarship. My younger son did the same last year. Watching this board and seeing posts from some applicants that had portions of their stats higher then my son and not selected made me wonder the same thing. My son was selected and while portions of his application were weaker then others, portions were stronger. It's hard as a parent to see there kids work so hard only to miss the mark.

All I can say is that my older son will graduate this year and commission, he embraced the path he took and excelled finishing in the top 6.4% in the nation. He received his #1 branch. It's hard for a young person to re-focus sometime when they are denied their first choice but it won't take him long before he hits the ground running again. Kids like these always seem to embrace the next challenge and reach their goals.

Good luck to your son, I hope the mail box brings good news for him.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

I favor eliminating Congressional nominations..

Use a merit-based nationwide competition, ensuring the most qualified are appointed without regard to geography, and eliminate race as a factor completely.

This would be a disaster; for the greater good of West Point, the Army and the Country.
Congressional representation assures that the Army will be staffed by a broad section of officers from varying backgrounds. Only about half the class is selected from MOC's.

 

[dunninla]

Just a Mom: why is "varying" geographic background important to the readiness of the Army? I get the arguments for the importance of racial, gender, ethnic, etc. diversity, but why Geography? How is your home town important? Is an xrace, ygender applicant from one city preferable to the same race/gender (but with much higher SAL evaluation), from another city? I don't get that.

 

[Jcleppe]

Just a Mom: why is "varying" geographic background important to the readiness of the Army? I get the arguments for the importance of racial, gender, ethnic, religious etc. diversity, but why Geography? How is your home town important? Is an xrace, yreligion, zgender applicant from one city preferable to the same (but with much higher SAL evaluation), from another city? I don't get that.

Oh come on Dunninla, you know the best cadets come from Poughkeepsie, how would the Army survive without them.

 

[nickm5]

i think its less about the geography can more about the congress men and women.

each member of congress has a part in deciding military funding and sa class sizes. they probably decide other stuff too but I'm not sure on the specifics. Therefore each member gets to send a qualified candidate to any sa. This is a law that congressman get to send people to sa's. Guess who makes laws? congress does. I believe this is why there is geographical distribution.

 

[Luigi59]

This would be a disaster; for the greater good of West Point, the Army and the Country.

That's your opinion, with no basis in fact. You're entitled to it, just as I am entitled to believe you are 100% wrong.

Unless you believe that selecting the best candidates without regard to race, religion, sex, or geography is somehow a bad thing.

 

[Mongo]

Just a Mom: why is "varying" geographic background important to the readiness of the Army? I get the arguments for the importance of racial, gender, ethnic, etc. diversity, but why Geography? How is your home town important? Is an xrace, ygender applicant from one city preferable to the same race/gender (but with much higher SAL evaluation), from another city? I don't get that.

Many, many reasons. I will ramble. The military should reflect the public it serves. The officer corps should reflect the enlisted that they serve. The British have studied this for generations and agree.

An example, every E-1 who joins the military thinks he will become the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Along this road, he needs role models. Role models just like him. His leadership should be able to talk Braves baseball and care less about the Red Sox. Without role models to emulate, he is much more likely to leave the military disallusioned. Therefore, the makeup of the military will change. The recruiting command will find that it is more effective in finding career enlisted in mid-Atlantic, Northeastern, and Far West suburban areas since that is where most officers are found since they have the highest SATs in the nation and better schools.. The South, long the bastion of enlisted procurement will dry up.

Exactly the same argument as racial, ethnic, and gender. The closer the officer ranks reflect the enlisted, the more comfortable they are. The more comfortable they are, the better they perform. The better they perform, the more effective our military is.

 

[Luigi59]

Many, many reasons. I will ramble. The military should reflect the public it serves. The officer corps should reflect the enlisted that they serve. The British have studied this for generations and agree.

An example, every E-1 who joins the military thinks he will become the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Along this road, he needs role models. Role models just like him. His leadership should be able to talk Braves baseball and care less about the Red Sox. Without role models to emulate, he is much more likely to leave the military disallusioned. Therefore, the makeup of the military will change. The recruiting command will find that it is more effective in finding career enlisted in mid-Atlantic, Northeastern, and Far West suburban areas since that is where most officers are found since they have the highest SATs in the nation and better schools.. The South, long the bastion of enlisted procurement will dry up.

Exactly the same argument as racial, ethnic, and gender. The closer the officer ranks reflect the enlisted, the more comfortable they are. The more comfortable they are, the better they perform. The better they perform, the more effective our military is.

All of which can be accomplished without the need for Congressional nominations.

 

[Mongo]

Frankly, in re-reading Title X ( my favorite past-time ), I don't see where there is any legal mandate to WP as to how they choose the vacancy winner of a Competitive slate. We are told they do it by WCS, but there is nothing legally binding about doing it that way. Selecting by WCS comes into play with the NWL.

The method of the slate says it all, "Competitive". WP tells the MOCs to allow them to select and they will select the most competitive by WP standards. WP has a fiduciary responsibility to select the best qualified. Do you honestly think that the MOCs would continue to allow WP to make the final selection if the selection process were anything else?

Yes, via the Principal selection method, the MOC can choose anyone he wants so long as they are qualified. However, his check and balance is his constituancy. Political survivability demands that the MOC take this into account.


GoArmyBeatNavy has been so kind as to point out two Supreme Court decisions that forbid extra WCS points be given for diversity. I think that it is a given from the input by those in the know that in the NWL selection process also that the highest WCS wins. I would contend that since the selection process must be above scruitny and always subject to investigation or legal action, that the only defendable recourse is to make ALL academy selections, including the remainder of the class beyond the initial 150 NWL with the possible exception of the Supts 50 selectees, subject to WCS ranking. (USNA follows this procedure.)

 

[GoArmyBeatNavy]

I would contend that since the selection process must be above scruitny and always subject to investigation or legal action, that the only defendable recourse is to make ALL academy selections, including the remainder of the class beyond the initial 150 NWL with the possible exception of the Supts 50 selectees, subject to WCS ranking. (USNA follows this procedure.)

I guess their supe uses all 50 of his for the football players

 

[Mongo]

I guess their supe uses all 50 of his for the football players

I know that it is the philosophy of both the current Dean of Admission and the most recent past one is that any use whatsoever of the Supts appointments is considered a failure of the system. There are many things that some Division 1 athletes bring to the table that translates very favorably to WCS points. It is these athletes that USNA seeks. And I would guess WP also.

 

[GoArmyBeatNavy]

I know that it is the philosophy of both the current Dean of Admission and the most recent past one is that any use whatsoever of the Supts appointments is considered a failure of the system. There are many things that some Division 1 athletes bring to the table that translates very favorably to WCS points. It is these athletes that USNA seeks. And I would guess WP also.

I was joking...lamenting our poor football performance against Navy the past decade.