'Situational Awareness' gone too far?

mbitr said:
This sounds like a rediculously stupid exercise in hypervigilance.
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I'm sorry. You mean me? I'm being hypervigilant? Because I'm trying really hard to bite my tongue on EVERYthing DS tells me. He was warning me that when I see him next week for the first time since school started that I'll probably notice he's lost weight and definition, so I'm like -- how can that be -- you have a gigantic gym and you do thousands of pushups a week plus other stuff too. And he responds, "Can't go to the gym." So I'm like, Wha? Why not? And out comes the story. You know? So I go, what if I brought your weights with me, and he goes, I guess I could try that -- suitemate does it -- but I don't like that idea because it's against the rules. And I'm like, (to myself) I don't care about the stupid rules. So you know, it's all me on the rule-breaking thing. This is how it goes. But I really like the idea of stressing the importance of the awareness training, and the idea of getting used to the buddy system. These seem to me to be life-long Army lessons, and one of the best reasons to join.

But wait. Did you mean the EC guys are hypervigilant?
 
Aglahad said:
I mean this is one of the reasons I didn't got to a SMC, if ANYONE gets in the way of my power cleaning or deadlift time I am not going to be happy :wink:

In all serious by going to UNG this is kind of what he asked for and I think the buddy system or the grin and bear it method like thousands before him is a effective course of action.

Once again, he is at a SMC for a reason right?
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Really good points, too, Aglahad.
 
I mean what they're having your son do, not your concern about it.
 
payitforward said:
I'm sorry. You mean me? I'm being hypervigilant? Because I'm trying really hard to bite my tongue on EVERYthing DS tells me. He was warning me that when I see him next week for the first time since school started that I'll probably notice he's lost weight and definition, so I'm like -- how can that be -- you have a gigantic gym and you do thousands of pushups a week plus other stuff too. And he responds, "Can't go to the gym." So I'm like, Wha? Why not? And out comes the story. You know? So I go, what if I brought your weights with me, and he goes, I guess I could try that -- suitemate does it -- but I don't like that idea because it's against the rules. And I'm like, (to myself) I don't care about the stupid rules. So you know, it's all me on the rule-breaking thing. This is how it goes. But I really like the idea of stressing the importance of the awareness training, and the idea of getting used to the buddy system. These seem to me to be life-long Army lessons, and one of the best reasons to join.

But wait. Did you mean the EC guys are hypervigilant?
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Payitforward, your explanation helps me to now understand how this whole gym thing came about. Your DS was just venting to you and you want to fix it. Dont worry so much! He'll be fine.
All of the replies to this thread offer solid information.
You asked if the situational awareness is out of hand, and it is not. Your DS is at a SMC. It is par for the course, part of the process of training our future Army Officers. Bringing a buddy is certainly a fine idea but if he wants to lift bad enough, he will figure it out.
Your DS sounds like a great kid!
 
Situational awareness is an important thing, but we should train these future officers as we train in the Army. It's not in anyone's interest to surgically remove their common sense. If you took a room full of enlisted people and told them "Hey, we need to improve our situational awareness so from now on if I see you in the gym and you don't see me because you're laying on a bench working out, I'm going to smoke the crap out of you," they'd look at you like you had six heads.
 
mbitr said:
Situational awareness is an important thing, but we should train these future officers as we train in the Army. It's not in anyone's interest to surgically remove their common sense. If you took a room full of enlisted people and told them "Hey, we need to improve our situational awareness so from now on if I see you in the gym and you don't see me because you're laying on a bench working out, I'm going to smoke the crap out of you," they'd look at you like you had six heads.
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Maybe so, but he's at a SMC :wink:
 
mbitr said:
Situational awareness is an important thing, but we should train these future officers as we train in the Army. It's not in anyone's interest to surgically remove their common sense. If you took a room full of enlisted people and told them "Hey, we need to improve our situational awareness so from now on if I see you in the gym and you don't see me because you're laying on a bench working out, I'm going to smoke the crap out of you," they'd look at you like you had six heads.
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HaHa...Ain't that the truth.
 
Applying "situational awareness" exercises, learning "Contrails", memorizing "Knowledge Tests", reporting the "Meal of the Day", and a long and time honored list of things that appear to be simple harrassment of the "new guys" to those unfamiliar with the military or the purpose of this "harrassment".

What is that purpose? To drill into these brand new potential leaders of tomorrow's military the discipline, the skills, the drive to learn to adapt and overcome, to work as a team to resolve the simple challenges, to pay attention to the little details, to be prepared at all times.... Reacting to things that seem silly, but in reality are early and very valuable exercises for getting your DSs/DDs ready to LEAD, ready to accomplish that mission, and ready to make sure the men and women under them come home safely.

Seems a waste of time, trivial, and pointless? Well, these are just minor building blocks in getting your son ready for his career. Pointless to the un-intiated, but I garauntee you the cadre at this SMC understand the value of this "harrassment" and that is the reason why they approve of this tradition, and have for a long time. THAT is the message to send to your son as to WHY this seeingly pain in the butt is soemthing he has to learn to deal with.

As to how to handle this. I'll repeat something I've said before. You're moving on from being a PARENT who dictates how / what your child should do ("Do your homework, clean your room, go to bed, etc."), to being a MENTOR who suggests a course of action and why, then let's them learn from their own actions ("Why do you think this is that way?" "What do you think you should do about it?" And as a last resort: "If I was you, here are some ways I would handle it."). It's a tough transition at this point, because your son left your house as your child, and arrived later that day at the SMC as an adult (in the SMC's eyes). Don't worry, you'll get the hang of it. And if you don't (helicopter parent being the perfect example that you mention earlier) all you are really doing is hurting HIS chances of becoming a good leader. Part of that process is learning from mistakes.

At this point, the "Why do you think they are doing this, and what do you think you can do about it?" talk comes into play for your son (with a "suck it up" if his answer is to hide in his room), followed by a few "suggestions" (such as the excellent "find someone else in your shoes with the same worries and use the buddy system" suggestion) at the tail end. Try to work it so HE thinks HE came up with that idea. You're smart (you're here, aren't you?), you'll figure it out....

Best of luck to you and your son!

Bullet
 
Bullet said:
...At this point, the "Why do you think they are doing this, and what do you think you can do about it?" talk comes into play for your son (with a "suck it up" if his answer is to hide in his room), followed by a few "suggestions" (such as the excellent "find someone else in your shoes with the same worries and use the buddy system" suggestion) at the tail end. Try to work it so HE thinks HE came up with that idea. You're smart (you're here, aren't you?), you'll figure it out....

Best of luck to you and your son!

Bullet
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Well this has turned into one fine thread. Thank you all for pointing me in the right directions.
 
I don't think this requirement is strange at all.

I am echoing what Bullet wrote above. Look, you take the Academy. I am only familiar with Annapolis, but I'm sure it applies everywhere. One of the jobs of the cadet/mid officers, ans well as the commissioned and non-comminssioned officers, is to break down a mid/cadet until they're pliable, and then build them up over the four years. They carefully, purposefully, and dedicatedly try to find the weaknesses in the cadet/mid. Poke, prod, twist, turn, etc. mentally and physically. The whole culture is about break down, then build back up better than before.

Mids (I think during Plebe Summer) have to memorize the menu at mess, and recite it word for word and with authority. What possible value could memorizing and barking out a menu have? Remembering details under pressure, that's what. Don't think that has value in the field? I do.

I agree with those above that you shouldn't get involved with the cadre breaking your son down, so they can build him back up better than before. The next time you speak with your cadet, you might ask him the question: "Is there any way teamwork can help you solve your gym problem?" He'll figure it out.
 
I commissioned outside the Academy/SMC system. After reading these posts about this type of critical training it makes me wonder how I was ever able to put my socks on in the morning.

I will agree though, it's no secret to how these schools operate, you get what you paid for and try and make the best of it. Best of luck to your son.
 
payitforward said:
Shouldn't that space be off-limits? I HATE to sound like a freak helicopter parent, so, seriously, I get that calling the school isn't going to happen even though I'm THIS CLOSE to picking up the phone and complaining. :thumbdown:
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Acadamy, SMC or ROTC are very good therapy for those suffering from Helicopter Parenting. Deployment is the cure.
Understand that there will be much much bigger struggles ahead.
 
dunninla said:
I don't think this requirement is strange at all.

I am echoing what Bullet wrote above. Look, you take the Academy. I am only familiar with Annapolis, but I'm sure it applies everywhere. One of the jobs of the cadet/mid officers, ans well as the commissioned and non-comminssioned officers, is to break down a mid/cadet until they're pliable, and then build them up over the four years. They carefully, purposefully, and dedicatedly try to find the weaknesses in the cadet/mid. Poke, prod, twist, turn, etc. mentally and physically. The whole culture is about break down, then build back up better than before.

Mids (I think during Plebe Summer) have to memorize the menu at mess, and recite it word for word and with authority. What possible value could memorizing and barking out a menu have? Remembering details under pressure, that's what. Don't think that has value in the field? I do.

I agree with those above that you shouldn't get involved with the cadre breaking your son down, so they can build him back up better than before. The next time you speak with your cadet, you might ask him the question: "Is there any way teamwork can help you solve your gym problem?" He'll figure it out.
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The Army has been doctrinally distancing itself from the "break and rebuild" mindset since before I enlisted. Basic training today is nothing like it was in the old days. Screwing with people constantly doesn't make proactive leaders, it makes reactive ones. It seems like every institution in the military has caught on to this except the academies.
 
If I was in a gym and a bunch of ROTC guys kept yelling out ranks, I would want to beat them into the ground. Honestly, this crap should be off-limits in the weight room.

I played on the CGHQ hockey team. We had a rear admiral on our team. At HQ, he was "Admiral Doe" but in the locker room or on the ice, he was "John".


Your son needs to go to the gym, then go. If he does the wrong thing with this stupid game, oh well, it'll get better. At some point, when he's in the position to, he could end this.


Clinics, athletics, class and the head.... they can drop this. I'm fine with greeting on campus, but there are safety concerns in a weight room, especially with free weights.

I'll never forget my classmate who called "attention on deck" in the head.... that could have been very "messy".
 
NorwichDad said:
Acadamy, SMC or ROTC are very good therapy for those suffering from Helicopter Parenting. Deployment is the cure.
Understand that there will be much much bigger struggles ahead.
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So very true....and BCT would be added to this list for all those SMP cadets and parents:thumb:

This policy sounds a bit over the top to me too, but I've openly stated I have no military background. Many times during DS's journey through ROTC/NG I have told him - "yes, I agree xyz is stupid, but you raised your right hand and have taken their money....SUCK IT UP". It is often times the most difficult part of parenting him now, but as Bullet pointed out - I'm only a mentor at this phase and have no control over what the Army/NG may ask of him.

The mentor role will become more natural over the next months -- I still have occassionally "brain stormed" with DS on a variety of topics when he's looking for alternative solutions to whatever. But, unfortunately, my momma heart still wants to pick up the phone(or dash off that email) and "fix it" for him:rolleyes: Imagine my surprise(and absolute pride) when I really know now - he'll fix it for himself(and those under him).
 
Ohio2015Parent said:
So very true....and BCT would be added to this list for all those SMP cadets and parents:thumb:

This policy sounds a bit over the top to me too, but I've openly stated I have no military background. Many times during DS's journey through ROTC/NG I have told him - "yes, I agree xyz is stupid, but you raised your right hand and have taken their money....SUCK IT UP". It is often times the most difficult part of parenting him now, but as Bullet pointed out - I'm only a mentor at this phase and have no control over what the Army/NG may ask of him.

The mentor role will become more natural over the next months -- I still have occassionally "brain stormed" with DS on a variety of topics when he's looking for alternative solutions to whatever. But, unfortunately, my momma heart still wants to pick up the phone(or dash off that email) and "fix it" for him:rolleyes: Imagine my surprise(and absolute pride) when I really know now - he'll fix it for himself(and those under him).
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Really good post and include BCT and Guard. DS had seen a few friends in NG deploy which also interrupted their college.

A lot of things ahead. Maybe Combat and other things. Bullet's post was exceptional. They must adjust, adapt and deal with things. In a few years they may be in command and taking care of a sailor on a sub under the artic for three months going through a nasty divorce. They may be in charge of Marine with difficulties after a deployment. They may be counseling a soldier with difficulties with the law. They may have to lead on Coast Guard Cutter facing 40 foot seas in the Bering Sea to rescue some idiot milionaire in a sailboat on his dream round the world cruise. Or they may have to take care of their distraught fellow officers when the Air Force Officers Club has run out of Dijon Mustard.

We are all helicopter parents, just we all fly away at different times.
 
As most of you know, I am Bullet's DW.

I am going to take it a different way as a Mom.

Ask him this:

Do you think you will be a better officer in the long run by not attacking this issue head on?

If the answer is NO, than there is your answer. GO TO THE GYM and learn.

If the answer is YES, than tell me how, especially if you have to go into combat?
~~~ No offense going to the gym, and having to acknowledge higher ranking cadets cannot be compared to what they may see as an AD member.

I would say to him, I get this seems trivial and BS. However, nobody has control over what occurs on the battle field. Being able to do 2 things at one time in a confined area will help is training you too for the AD.

There is a method to the madness.

I would also say that every branch has traditions. You hate the tradition while you are enduring it, but you love it when you accomplished it.


Finally, I will say this as a Mom of a UPT AF O1. The memorization seems inane as an 18 yr old. However, it will not only help them academically in college since it is a study skill, but it will help them when they go to their career field school training.
~~~~ At pilot training the 1st few tests are all about spitting back verbatim the BOLD. This includes, capitalization and punctuation. miss/forget a comma, semi-colon, period ....you fail!

I have said this for yrs. People think the hardest thing is going through the ROTC scholarship process in HS and waiting for results. Sorry, but that is the absolute easiest part of their life until they leave the military.

As a ROTC cadet summer training and how they rank out will matter more than the dang scholarship because it impacts their OML.

When they are MSIVs that is their future, especially for the Army (AD, Reserve or Guard).

When they commission, it will be about their success for promotion boards.

It only starts to amp up more after this yr. Find a way to say to him, that this is a yr to decide. Face your fears and do it, or ask yourself if you really want this lifestyle for at least 8 more yrs (3+ in college and 5 AD).

There is nothing wrong with saying, I want out. I am just not someone that wants this lifestyle. The attrition rate for ROTC is very high. Our DS entered his freshman yr with 100+, commissioned with 26. SAs have @75% attrition rate. It is common.

I am not saying or inferring this is his case. I am saying as a Mom, I would say to them, that the pressure is only going to get harder, and to ask them to look inside to see if this is what they want.

Personally, I think your child is like most kids. Finding their feet. You remember their 1st weeks in HS when they were the small fish in the pond. They don't. Now they are the small fish in the ocean. It is time to remind them of how they felt as a freshman in the HS pond.
 
I would also say that every branch has traditions. You hate the tradition while you are enduring it, but you love it when you accomplished it.
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I thinks it's more that you love the tradition when it's your turn to dish it out.

There is nothing wrong with saying, I want out. I am just not someone that wants this lifestyle. The attrition rate for ROTC is very high. Our DS entered his freshman yr with 100+, commissioned with 26. SAs have @75% attrition rate. It is common.
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There is a big difference between ROTC at a SMC and a traditional university. Not wanting the lifestyle at a SMC does not mean one can't handle ROTC.

I'm not sure I've ever seen the figure of 75% Attrition rate at the SA's, seems a tiny bit on the high side.
 
Pima said:
I would also say that every branch has traditions. You hate the tradition while you are enduring it, but you love it when you accomplished it.
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I don't know about "love".... you're happy to be done with it. I hated aspects of cadet life at CGA. Now that I'm done with them, I don't love, or even like them...I'm just happy to be done with them.


Everything SHOULD have a purpose in training. At CGA we used to ask "is this a fleet-transferable skill" aka will we need to do this or something like this in the fleet. Usually, to some degree, the answer was "yes".

"How's the cow?" Who cares.... it wasn't the indoc that was important, it was the memorization.

I understand the importance of recognizing people and ranks out THERE, in the military. That said, there is a time and a place. I'm not sure the gym is it. I served on a relatively small ship (210') with a relatively small crew (12 officers, 56 enlisted). In the gym (aka two bikes and dumbbells in the laundry room) we were there to work out, not render salutes and proper military protocol.

I guess I'm misunderstanding this situation.

Is your son afraid to go to the gym, because in the gym he needs to be able to recognize other ROTC kids, and if he messes up he'll be yelled at? Am I understanding this correctly?

If I am, first he should understand that he can expect to be corrected throughout his career, by some good leaders and by some horrible leaders. The prospect of being corrected should render him useless. He's got to understand that, in the long run, this is just a bump in the road. And if it's such a big deal, it is likely a big deal to others too. He should remember this for when he's in a position of leadership. He'll figure out one of two things. He may figure out this serves a purpose, and he'll be able to appreciate that purpose when he can see the bigger picture. Or he may figure out that this issue is absolutely worthless. If that's the case, then maybe he can (in the future, when it's appropriate) step up and put an end to this practice.
 
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