Standards in Free Fall

[AF Roots]

@usafa2525 thanks for the update! DS said the same thing about disenrollment after I joked with him not to get written up for a training violation. I guess he was pretty dang serious. As you know the class of 25 had a snow storm roll through for recognition and it went through as planned indoors, lights turned down, some of the best webguy pics of the doolies sweating their brains out lol. I would venture to say that most Doolies would prefer to have a real recognition, not what’s happening now.

 

[nicsaf]

It’s a very slippery slope that will likely make it challenging to justify any Academy’s existence in the future.

 

[navy/airforce-hopeful man]

It’s a very slippery slope that will likely make it challenging to justify any Academy’s existence in the future.

The Academies are very expensive to run, it's true. But funding for the military comes from Congress, and funding for education and funding for the military are both very popular for Democrats/Republicans. Since the Academies exist in the cross-section of education and miliary, I don't think it's very likely anyone in government would make it a big priority to do away with them.

 

[justme]

The Academies are very expensive to run, it's true. But funding for the military comes from Congress, and funding for education and funding for the military are both very popular for Democrats/Republicans. Since the Academies exist in the cross-section of education and miliary, I don't think it's very likely anyone in government would make it a big priority to do away with them.

I would have agreed 8 years ago. Now, not sure. Any program/institution, etc that appears to shift one way or the other is likely to get vilified by the other. Especially for any of the 3 SA that are not Army/Navy. I do think those two would have a much higher level of voter protection that would require lots of shifting to be in danger.

 

[SpiritCommitteeLiaison]

Reporting to you live on the ground of USAFA: it's pretty much CANX this time around.

I feel comfortable sharing this information because, although Recognition is generally kept secret, there is absolutely no way it will ever happen like it has this year. Either it will go back to normal or it will be CANX entirely.

Recognition was cancelled for all of yesterday due to a snowstorm. Although Recognition still continued in similar conditions in 2006, 2013, and 2016, PP does not trust us to run recognition; because they can't get on base to supervise, we are not allowed to do anything. This is the same for this morning. Recognition events will not start until 1130 due to a delay. Additionally, we will be doing an Inclement Weather (IW) Plan.

Here are some changes within the last 24 hours:

"Deviation from any portion of the Recognition OPORD will result in an LoN" (a LoN is a "Letter of Notification" which basically means presumptive disenrollment) <-- I get the sentiment here, but in the fog of a stressful environment there's bound to be some deviation from the set plan. Current feeling among most upperclassmen is we want to make a meaningful experience for the C4Cs, but with PP breathing down our necks constantly we are basically frozen, afraid to make any move.

From Group 2 and/or 3: "Deviation from any portion of the Recognition OPORD will result in an LoN for the upperclassman and the Squadron Commander" -- I sort of agree with this sentiment of the supervisor should be punished... I'm just sharing this because it's the level of threats that upperclassmen are dealing with right now

"Contraband will not be confiscated from C4Cs during Recognition" <-- probably the most contradictory statement ever. C4Cs typically have to lock up their phones, watches, and computers during all of Recognition. Not this year, probably because PP sees it as hazing.

"Lights will not be dimmed during Recognition" <-- Generally, squadron AORs are modified in different ways to create a sense of seriousness. The idea is that returning to a familiar place will not set the tone for a squadron's Recognition. It would be like if you did BCT at your high school.

"Upperclassmen may not yell at C4Cs to create a stressful environment." <-- The entire intent of Recognition was modified *literally yesterday* to assess how C4Cs will do as 2nd LTs, instead of assessing how they have mastered the skills taught to them over Doolie year (oh wait, I can't say the word "doolie" anymore. A person in my squadron got a Negative Form 10 for saying "doolie" (and another got one for saying the F-word)).

"No basic wakeups will be allowed." <-- same intent as the previous point. Like that's fine, but then why have we been training them on Agile Combat Employment, performance under stress, etc. all year???

"You may not use the words SERE, POW, incarceration, imprisonment, or any verbiage pertaining to the aforementioned." <-- apparently just saying the word SERE is just as stress-inducing as going through the program.

So, in short, events on Thursday were completely CANX, Friday modified beyond repair. And a vast majority of the changes have occurred - including the "intent" piece - within the last 24 hours. Saturday will be interesting. The idea is to just do the Prop and Wings ceremony and be done with it. We can't yell, we can't induce stress, we can't make it a memorable experience. And there's gonna be a ton of grads on here who say "make the most of it" but honestly the only way to do that *without getting disenrolled* is to make it a complete joke to everyone involved. That being said, I'm all ears, so if you have some specific ideas besides "do what you can" or "be creative" then I'd be happy to hear them!

There's also probably going to be a few "I'm a grad from 1812, and these changes are all good because I never utilized them in my AF career" or "I'm was a fighter pilot, I never went to USAFA, but basically everything you guys have been doing for like 70 years doesn't make sense," but there is a TON of VALUABLE experience gained from creating an artificially stressful environment. And maybe people find the "When we're at war" mantra corny af, but to say that a likely near-peer conflict with China or Russia will not be stress-inducing, or that many of these traditions will not be valuable, is utterly ridiculous. I recently spoke to a grad who was a POW in Vietnam. He said that his experiences during his freshman year were crucial to his survival while a Prisoner of War. No, we're not at war right now, but we ought to be prepared for stuff that happened in our military's past. Sorry for anyone that was triggered by my saying "POW" or "Prisoner of War", btw.

General Moga, our previous highly-respected Commandant, said the following about doing hard things at USAFA: "Every cadet that leaves this institution, regardless of ending up in an operational career field or not, has to understand and embrace the warfighter state of mind — the warfighter mentality. Whether they end up in combat or supporting those who do, that mentality will serve them well throughout their careers and throughout their lives." At the end of the day, everything that the USAFA of yesterday did for CW, especially for the C4Cs, helped them build this warfighter mentality. It's sad to see a lot of this go away for the current freshmen.

This is so sad. I am truly sorry. I already feel bad that the c/o 2024 (covid class) missed out on so much. One of the things my daughter said after her recognition was "It was hard but one of the most rewarding things I've done!" She felt she earned her prop&wings.

Please tell me the Run to the Rock is going to happen on Saturday.

 

[SpiritCommitteeLiaison]

@usafa2525 thanks for the update! DS said the same thing about disenrollment after I joked with him not to get written up for a training violation. I guess he was pretty dang serious. As you know the class of 25 had a snow storm roll through for recognition and it went through as planned indoors, lights turned down, some of the best webguy pics of the doolies sweating their brains out lol. I would venture to say that most Doolies would prefer to have a real recognition, not what’s happening now.

I am hearing from many, many parents that their Doolies are upset they aren't getting a real Recognition. Yes, I called them Doolies. That's a tradition & not an insult. If I wanted to insult them, I'd call them SMACKS. LOL!

 

[FlyFalcon]

This is so sad. I am truly sorry. I already feel bad that the c/o 2024 (covid class) missed out on so much. One of the things my daughter said after her recognition was "It was hard but one of the most rewarding things I've done!" She felt she earned her prop&wings.

Please tell me the Run to the Rock is going to happen on Saturday.

Most likely not "it's too slippery" I was told this since I'm in Mae. Unfortunately I knew these roes going into rec because of my position. When I mentioned earlier (another thread) that I was scared of not knowing the regs this is what we mean. Basic wakes were allowed about less than 24 hours till the event started on Friday. Thursday is was allowed then all roes changes from "allowed to yell, allowed to do basic wake ups" to if you do this you will be disenrolled.

I just want to know the standards please. I don't want to lose my career before it starts. I just wanted to give them an impactful experience that helps them grow. And yes we've tried to route up these concerns, we don't matter. Follow the orders given even if you don't know them.

To everyone who's not usafa, it's not just a beat session it sure as heck wasn't last year, it's a chance to lean on your team. A chance to show how far you have come since basic. To push your comfort zone.

We were fine as MAE making changes every. Single. Hour. For weeks. Because we cared. If it was just a beat session they why would we have made 40+ worth of changes. We care, but apparently we're not allowed to be responsible. We're not allowed to train because we'll mess it up. We're being micromanaged. Please let us mess up, please. I'm just done, and yes I know this will happened in the real military please just let me get there.

 

[SpiritCommitteeLiaison]

Most likely not "it's too slippery" I was told this since I'm in Mae. Unfortunately I knew these roes going into rec because of my position. When I mentioned earlier (another thread) that I was scared of not knowing the regs this is what we mean. Basic wakes were allowed about less than 24 hours till the event started on Friday. Thursday is was allowed then all roes changes from "allowed to yell, allowed to do basic wake ups" to if you do this you will be disenrolled.

I just want to know the standards please. I don't want to lose my career before it starts. I just wanted to give them an impactful experience that helps them grow. And yes we've tried to route up these concerns, we don't matter. Follow the orders given even if you don't know them.

To everyone who's not usafa, it's not just a beat session it sure as heck wasn't last year, it's a chance to lean on your team. A chance to show how far you have come since basic. To push your comfort zone.

We were fine as MAE making changes every. Single. Hour. For weeks. Because we cared. If it was just a beat session they why would we have made 40+ worth of changes. We care, but apparently we're not allowed to be responsible. We're not allowed to train because we'll mess it up. We're being micromanaged. Please let us mess up, please. I'm just done, and yes I know this will happened in the real military please just let me get there.

I have heard (translation: its a rumor) that the Run will be postponed, not cancelled. So, at least there's that --- if it happens.

I don't know why the upperclassmen can't have more autonomy, but I am not on the hill, so have no insight into the whys and what-fors.
I know that many of the cadets are out building snow forts & having snowball fights.

 

[usafa2525]

I have heard (translation: its a rumor) that the Run will be postponed, not cancelled. So, at least there's that --- if it happens.

I don't know why the upperclassmen can't have more autonomy, but I am not on the hill, so have no insight into the whys and what-fors.
I know that many of the cadets are out building snow forts & having snowball fights.

While I haven't heard that the run will be postponed vs. cancelled, it is not happening tomorrow per a schedule currently awaiting approval. While there are three different plans that have been communicated to us for Saturday, none of them include PT, so it's difficult to see how a Run to the Rock would be approved.

Unfortunately none of us really know why upperclassmen can't have more autonomy. They trust us to teach other cadets how to survive in the desert, fly gliders, and even jump out of planes, but running a squadron event is just too risky I guess.

What will be happening tomorrow (at least I am 90% sure) is the Recognition Dinner. Mitches said they have the resources and manning to do it regardless of the weather. The real heroes in all of this are the Mitches workers -- they will walk through fire (or, in this case, snow) to make sure we are fed.

As for the snow forts and snowball fights, they've gotten massive. Upwards of 100 people in just one block of the Vandy Quad. Tons of forts. Stealing guidons. Aerial snowball strikes from the Tzo level. Snowmen that are a story and a half tall. Bedlam and mayhem, tomfoolery. Basically everything you would expect at a classic USAFA football game in a snowstorm if PP hadn't gotten rid of our traditions for those as well haha.

 

[Grizztop1]

What the heck is up with all the negative post?

 

[SpiritCommitteeLiaison]

While I haven't heard that the run will be postponed vs. cancelled, it is not happening tomorrow per a schedule currently awaiting approval. While there are three different plans that have been communicated to us for Saturday, none of them include PT, so it's difficult to see how a Run to the Rock would be approved.

Unfortunately none of us really know why upperclassmen can't have more autonomy. They trust us to teach other cadets how to survive in the desert, fly gliders, and even jump out of planes, but running a squadron event is just too risky I guess.

What will be happening tomorrow (at least I am 90% sure) is the Recognition Dinner. Mitches said they have the resources and manning to do it regardless of the weather. The real heroes in all of this are the Mitches workers -- they will walk through fire (or, in this case, snow) to make sure we are fed.

As for the snow forts and snowball fights, they've gotten massive. Upwards of 100 people in just one block of the Vandy Quad. Tons of forts. Stealing guidons. Aerial snowball strikes from the Tzo level. Snowmen that are a story and a half tall. Bedlam and mayhem, tomfoolery. Basically everything you would expect at a classic USAFA football game in a snowstorm if PP hadn't gotten rid of our traditions for those as well haha.

I agree that the run will not happen on Saturday. The conditions are still too dangerous, but that doesn't mean it can't happen at a later date. Make it happen! For the firsties (who didn't have it as Doolies) and for the current Doolies. It is a tradition that certainly cannot be considered a "hazing" event.

Love that the cadets are making the most out of the current situation. This will create memories that last a lifetime, and that's important. Let's see more of those spirit missions! Keep morale high!

You cadets give me hope for the future. Against the worst nature has thrown at you, you make snow forts and have snowball fights. Its fantastic! Enjoy "the break" and the camaraderie. You may not have a traditional recognition, but you have memories that are a result of overcoming the adversity thrown at you (no matter the source)!

 

[FlyFalcon]

I agree that the run will not happen on Saturday. The conditions are still too dangerous, but that doesn't mean it can't happen at a later date. Make it happen! For the firsties (who didn't have it as Doolies) and for the current Doolies. It is a tradition that certainly cannot be considered a "hazing" event.

Love that the cadets are making the most out of the current situation. This will create memories that last a lifetime, and that's important. Let's see more of those spirit missions! Keep morale high!

You cadets give me hope for the future. Against the worst nature has thrown at you, you make snow forts and have snowball fights. Its fantastic! Enjoy "the break" and the camaraderie. You may not have a traditional recognition, but you have memories that are a result of overcoming the adversity thrown at you (no matter the source)!

We are! We have a DDT planned for our firstie because 24 didn't get to go because of COVID so we want that chance for them. However it is a important site for native Americans so we will have to figure that out to ensure respect

 

[usafa2525]

I feel obligated to update everyone on Saturday, in case they hadn't heard.

To my knowledge, Recognition on Saturday was either decided at the Group or Wing level, as opposed to the Squadron level. I won't talk about what exactly we did because some parts of it will (hopefully) be used in next year's Recognition, but here's two things:

- No PT was allowed (lol)
- We were not allowed to do basic wakeups, correctional/remediation training for C4Cs, or even have freshmen at attention in their squadrons until 0930 because only some PP was on base <-- this was super contradictory btw. They said we couldn't do any training because PP wasn't on base, but then mandated PP to be on base to make sure we weren't doing any training.

After 0930, suddenly we were allowed to do a lot more stuff (not sure about other squadrons, but at least my entire group was suddenly given a lot more leeway). My squad was allowed to cover the lights, yell, bang on doors, etc. as one would expect at Recognition. Somehow we got everything put together enough for the squad to look like it should've looked all weekend.

As predicted there was no run to the rock, but there was a Recognition dinner. Standing ovations for the Superintendent and the Mitches Workers, but eerie silence for the Commandant. His first words were "Good evening Teammates" which he ended up having to repeat because the wing didn't clap or respond at all. So awkward! I'm sure a lot of parents on this platform know that General Marks is incredibly unpopular among cadets, because most people see the changes being made as entirely his fault (even if they come from somewhere higher). On the anonymous cadet social media platform, "Jodel", people were constantly castigating him for every little thing. And, to be honest, it wouldn't be surprising if he were partially responsible. The fact that wing-wide changes to the Recognition OPORD, the event's intent, and other random rules were being implemented so quickly makes it unlikely that someone higher than the Comm (such as SecAF or someone of that stature) would be the responsible party.

 

[Osprey123]

The folks at Mitches are true heroes.

 

[OldRetSWO]

It’s a very slippery slope that will likely make it challenging to justify any Academy’s existence in the future.

Really? I hadn't heard that West Point or USNA have made similar sudden changes.

 

[GrilledCheese94]

To quite be honest, I’m a little taken aback by the airing of dirty laundry in a relatively open and public forum.

Every SA alum - myself included - thinks that they had the last real plebe/swab/doolie/rook/knob year.

Naval etiquette taught us to keep wardroom/officers mess business inside the confines of the wardroom/officers mess. We were expected to not air our grievances in public at the risk of embarrassing ourselves and our command.

The vast majority of visitors to this forum are civilians that have no connection to the military whatsoever. People of all walks come here to educate themselves about all manner of commissioning programs. Parents, students, teachers, guidance counselors, and alums of all flavors - most of them are voters and taxpayers.

Just a casual observation from a Grumpy Old Grad.

 

[raimius]

I'm of the opinion that any Recognition ROE that prohibits inducing stress should be aired to the grad community. Pushing personal limits is the point...

 

[usafa2525]

To quite be honest, I’m a little taken aback by the airing of dirty laundry in a relatively open and public forum.

Every SA alum - myself included - thinks that they had the last real plebe/swab/doolie/rook/knob year.

Naval etiquette taught us to keep wardroom/officers mess business inside the confines of the wardroom/officers mess. We were expected to not air our grievances in public at the risk of embarrassing ourselves and our command.

The vast majority of visitors to this forum are civilians that have no connection to the military whatsoever. People of all walks come here to educate themselves about all manner of commissioning programs. Parents, students, teachers, guidance counselors, and alums of all flavors - most of them are voters and taxpayers.

Just a casual observation from a Grumpy Old Grad.

That is totally fair, but those sentiments are from the past and not the present. There is a massive push at USAFA for everything to be aired nowadays. With spikes in sexual assault and other negative qualities at USAFA and other service academies, feedback and climate survey results are being made more and more public, with a larger and larger amount of society able to review and analyze the results. If a military academy has skeletons in the closet, those skeletons need to see the light of day for any changes to be made. Avoiding embarrassment for those skeletons does not solve any issues. For example, Gen. Silveria aired USAFA's dirty laundry in public regarding a potential racial hate crime at the Prep School, and people applauded him for doing so. Another example would be EAAA, a mandatory program for female cadets that essentially taught victim-blaming in sexual assault cases; it was discontinued this year after the program's educational model was made public to the entire cadet wing and the chaplain community.

This is not to say that any of the recent changes at USAFA are skeletons in its closet. I may have portrayed the changes in a more negative light, but all changes are widely known amongst the cadet wing and will be readily accessible on the internet on July 31st when the changes are officially signed in the revised USAFAI 36-3501. The changes themselves are not negative per se... otherwise the changes wouldn't be made in the first place. Moreover, if simply stating what the changes are brings embarrassment to anyone at USAFA, that says a lot more about the changes than it does about the person bringing them up.

The grad community, which donates upwards of 7 figures a year to this institution, deserves to know exactly what their academy is doing and how it is changing. This forum's users, which consist largely of grads, parents, and applicants, ought to know which changes are being made so they can be readily informed before coming to USAFA rather than being given false information.

 

[All3Services]

I will apologize in advance for the length of this so feel free to skip past it Let's be fair and recognize that the nature of what society accepts is changing rapidly and whether it's for the better or worse will be a debate with no end. What those older grads and vets among us called "encouragement" or "team building" is now seen as harassment and unacceptable. The open forums through which unqualified and uneducated along with "experts" get to obtain a view into military life will allow those folks to air their personal grievances no matter how inaccurate or damaging they may be. The value of older styles of training and development will be debated ad nauseum but the true test is not here or at the SAs, it's in the application of the leadership in the wider AF and other services when these grads have to lead those troops. As technology advances and we see more and more advanced systems employed on the battlefield the general consensus among the critics seems to be that military leadership has also changed. My challenge is that these folks need to ask those warriors currently deployed down range in Ukraine if they believe leadership needs to be more accepting and "kid gloves" or does it need to be able to make hard decisions under pressure with lives on the line and no take backs? There is never an excuse for assault and the lines between training and going too far are sometimes difficult to discern but IMHO the simple truth at the end of the day is that we must meet a balance between societal acceptance and being able to achieve the mission which is ultimately to lead warriors into battle. That can't be done effectively by leaders who haven't been given the chance to develop those skills under the kinds of pressure that non-military leaders never experience. Some of the parents bear a large part of the responsibility for this as they refuse to let their children go and be developed into the military leaders they have chosen to be. An example is parents of the current class last week complaining about their DS/DD having to do Recognition "outside in the cold" and then photos of those same DS/DD sitting in self made igloos eating MREs because they wanted to rather than be inside when they could have been. The most common complaint I have heard is that USAFA has turned into "university with uniforms" and even a congressional staffer with whom I spoke last week stated that we have become too focused on academics and not enough on leadership with the candidates we are selecting. If that's the case I can only hope this pendulum swings back quickly or we will be putting the lives of our service men and women into the wrong hands. We must start with the right people who are entering the service for the right reasons and have the capacity to be those battlefield leaders our troops deserve.

 

[FlyFalcon]

- No PT was allowed (lol)

- We were not allowed to do basic wakeups, correctional/remediation training for C4Cs, or even have freshmen at attention in their squadrons until 0930 because only some PP was on base <-- this was super contradictory btw. They said we couldn't do any training because PP wasn't on base, but then mandated PP to be on base to make sure we weren't doing any training.

At no point did these roes go away for us

After 0930, suddenly we were allowed to do a lot more stuff (not sure about other squadrons, but at least my entire group was suddenly given a lot more leeway). My squad was allowed to cover the lights, yell, bang on doors, etc. as one would expect at Recognition. Somehow we got everything put together enough for the squad to look like it should've looked all weekend.

We had lights covered from the beginning but you guys got to bang on doors? Dang that was disenrollment for us.

I just, we were shown how much they trust us. Which is nothing. We had permanent party there but they didn't trust us to do training so ok. Don't trust the wing or group or squadron commanders you put in charge. That's a training issue. Why pick us if you don't trust those you put under your command

Also I had PP asking why things where changed...idk I'm the lowest person to ask. How do the people who are supposed to be in charge of oversight have no idea what's going on?