Time to Float the Idea of Liberty for the Mids

usna1985 said:
While not on a ship, I spent 6 straight months on deployment in winter on base at Keflavik, Iceland, with the exception of one day (it was dark, so it seemed like night) going to the Blue Lagoon (which was NOTHING like it is today -- then just a tiny little changing hut next to the pool). We had no car and, at the time, almost no one off base spoke English. There was NOTHING anywhere near the base to which to walk (if you wanted to walk more than a mile in the dark with 40 mph of wind). So we were stuck on base -- day in and day out.

There were no computers, no Internet, no email, no Skype. One channel of TV (AFARTS) with mostly taped programs from 3-4 years prior. You had work, workout (had a really nice lap pool), and maybe going the exchange on Saturday. Phone calls were through an operator and cost $2/minute. And we were thankful we were land-based instead of doing all the above on hey's grey and underway. And most of us took it as time for personal improvement
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> You just triggered flashbacks , both good and bad .... I was probably there 12 months after you. Professionally, it was the best time of my time in the Navy -- Crew holding TACCO, with all Junior Officer crew, flying on real targets pretty regularly. Flying, we at least had the opportunity to get above the clouds and see the sun from time to time, and also got to do a few Detachments. Beyond that, exactly as described ..cold, dark, and windy -- one time we landed and it was so bad we were stuck in the hangar for a few hours. But yes, at is worst, was always better than being on a ship (or worse, a submarine !)
 
I think the biggest ‘problem’, is that some Mids haven’t ‘bought into’ this current situation. It’s like a football team: you have captains that hype everyone up...the team is all itchy to win. Ready to go out there and fight for the end goal. They are a unified team, sacrificing and working towards one goal that they all agree on. A W!

When the team is playing the number one ranked in the state team, and the COACH says “just don’t look stupid. You know we won’t win, but don’t be dumb” (true story...), the team breaks apart. Moral is low. Teammates blame each other for their mistakes. There is no goal to victory and the team implodes. They just don’t care bc they are going to win anyhow.

From the cheap seats, this is what I kind of feel is happening. The Brigade it appears (in general...from those speaking out) isn’t unified towards one goal THEY believe in. The overall standards are being applied and enforced haphazardly, unfairly. A top down management style. Case in point, no liberty, but visitors all over the place. Add in all the current discourse about all the disagreement even surrounding covid? People aren’t even believing the same thing.

I dont *think* comparing morale at usna presently to a deployment where everyone has bought in is necessarily a fair comparison. I think the bigger (and different) issue is that there is a significant group of Mids who have not bought into the plan. Bc they are seeing too many hipocracies from many different things (Yard is open. March on/football, that kind of thing).

I don’t think it’s as simple as the food. Or liberty. I think Mids can buy Into all that under the right circumstance. AND, of note, some Mids HAVE bought into all this. Imo, that’s the issue. Not ththey arent cut out for the Navy. I don’t think that’s a fair statement.

Not sure I’m able to express what I mean. Sometimes my mind is clear, my writing isn’t.

I also have never belonged to any military service. But I see similarities in this as a management 101 type thing. Maybe I'm way off base. But your people have to perceive they are in this together, working towards a goal, to buy in to it. And it seems to me that this is the issue. Not necessarily that they are/aren’t cut out for service.

Guess what though...this too shall pass. Lessons will be learned. And all thes Mids are in a unique leadership lab, filing away bits and pieces of their future leadership selves. So it will be beneficial at some point....therefore worth the sacrifice. Just ‘kinda sucks really bad ATM.

‘Gotta keep it all In perspective. In times like these, look at your blessings. Focus on the good.

BTW....this isn’t a comment on how things are, or aren’t at usna. Or right or wrong. Rather pointing out that ‘our perceptions are our realities’. And seems to be a lot of stuff being perceived by at least a few Mids
 
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Fear not, current class. Your pleas have been answered. In route your posit. Maintain maximum readiness posture. Avoid direct contact with morale suppression teams. Carry on.life, liberty.jpg
 
First of all i am a avid Navy Sports Supporter. but I believe one of the main issues with the Mids is that there is a double standard with Varsity sports and the Co-Vid protocols/Issues. The Varsity teams can travel and host teams from other regions as far as the Mid west and have exposure to the virus from other teams, players and civilians. Last time I checked players are not wearing facemasks or maintaining social distancing while in competition. They come back in Bancroft and rejoin their respective companies after possible exposure? But all the Mids cannot have 4 hrs liberty in DTA? Really? I believe in consistency in leadership.
 
Shelby_HT said:
First of all i am a avid Navy Sports Supporter. but I believe one of the main issues with the Mids is that there is a double standard with Varsity sports and the Co-Vid protocols/Issues. The Varsity teams can travel and host teams from other regions as far as the Mid west and have exposure to the virus from other teams, players and civilians. Last time I checked players are not wearing facemasks or maintaining social distancing while in competition. They come back in Bancroft and rejoin their respective companies after possible exposure? But all the Mids cannot have 4 hrs liberty in DTA? Really? I believe in consistency in leadership.
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Yeah this has pretty much the whole Brigade scratching their heads. Even those of us who like football are annoyed by the inconsistency of the Dep Dant frying mids for standing 5.9 feet apart while the football team practices every day and will be playing against other schools while they live in their company spaces with everybody else. Considering the social distancing and mask stuff only works well if everyone does it, it’s frustrating to see. Not blaming the players for this obviously, but the calculation the Academy made is pretty confusing.
 
helmsdown said:
ISO Mids are given a time slot and allow to work out at Hospital Point and a lot of them do. Only those tested positive are restricted to quarters.
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I suspect that while this might be the ideal, it isn't quite working out that way.

They get less than an hour, are told not to run since it may exacerbate symptoms in those that have been thus far asymptomatic and the workouts aren't enough to keep them in the shape they need to be. They also don't get to go every day. So, not quite the same as the rest of the brigade and perhaps not enough.

I'm afraid my comments may have been misunderstood. My mid is not complaining (in fact, he's handling all this without one grumble to me) and neither am I. But IF we have a mental health issue (ie, this weekend's incidents are determined not to be isolated), I'm proposing for discussion that iso policies may be a place to look to relieve some of the stresses.
 
The brigade has only been back for a few weeks, though I realize plebes and detailers have been going on 2 months. I personally am hopeful that there might be some town liberty or some other opportunity to get off the Yard in the coming weeks. But a lot likely depends on the Covid situation WRT USNA specifically and Annapolis more generally.

Keep in minds that Bancroft Hall and King Hall were designed to keep people together, not keep them apart. So lots of challenges for the Administration.
 
I started a thread a couple months ago wondering why plebes were going home after just a few days of being cooped up in a room with AC and a shower and food and whatnot. This photo is my second ship, the Good Ship Cochrane, swinging on the hook inport Phuket after 110 days at sea. We were in the Persian Gulf/North Arabian Sea AOR during the Iran/Iraq war which was long before young people currently suffering for a grateful nation at our service academies were born. We had no liberty during that time and the first thing the Sailors from 1st Division had to do after pulling into port was to scrub the sides and paint.

I get it. Life sucks today but guess what? Life as you know it will change in four years no matter how you handle this experience. My recommendation as a retired Senior Chief with Navy fleet and Marine FMF and HQ and instructor experience is to stop your whiny a$$ cry baby-ness and oh, by the way, tell your parents to stop as well. There's not one situation concerning this that I can be one-upped on. Doubt me? Try Me. You what to quit? Please do. I pay a bunch of taxes and gladly do so to ensure the first mandate of the constitution, national security, is met. Listening to cry baby academy students and their parents is not on the list of things I agree to pay for.

It has been brought up that current Sailors and Marines would be disgusted at the lack of resolve and toughness exhibited by those confined behind the gates at USNA. That may very well be true if they knew about it but guess what, most of us don't and didn't give a snap where you went to college. Show up to serve with my son without the moral, mental, tactical, and physical toughness required to do the mission and he will eat your lunch and make you wish you were back at Bancroft.

cochrane.jpg
 
My two cents: USNA right now is certainly better than being underway or deployed without liberty for an extended period of time. However, there is one big difference-- when you are underway you actually have a job. Yes, our current "job" is schoolwork, but some of us haven't had more than 4 weeks without classes (to be transparent, credit load was lighter around 6-8 credits for many people for a month or two over the summer) since the start of law academic year. We never had a chance to take a break from the grind of school.

Personally, I'm doing fine. I still get to practice every day and find ways to blow off steam in company. But, some people aren't doing fine. Whether those people are fit for service I don't have the experience or perspective to say.

To address an earlier comment... I do think that I'm in line with the majority of mids. We know USNA sucks right now, but we understand why. However, we are also aware of the not-so-acute issue of declining mental health across the Brigade. We had a genuine scare this weekend. And, as Kierkegaard said, everyone is OK now. I fear the day when everyone doesn't turn out OK. Is liberty the solution to this problem? Possibly. It certainly is a solution, but it is not the only one. Nor should it be seen as such.
 
Devil Doc said:
I started a thread a couple months ago wondering why plebes were going home after just a few days of being cooped up in a room with AC and a shower and food and whatnot. This photo is my second ship, the Good Ship Cochrane, swinging on the hook inport Phuket after 110 days at sea. We were in the Persian Gulf/North Arabian Sea AOR during the Iran/Iraq war which was long before young people currently suffering for a grateful nation at our service academies were born. We had no liberty during that time and the first thing the Sailors from 1st Division had to do after pulling into port was to scrub the sides and paint.

I get it. Life sucks today but guess what? Life as you know it will change in four years no matter how you handle this experience. My recommendation as a retired Senior Chief with Navy fleet and Marine FMF and HQ and instructor experience is to stop your whiny a$$ cry baby-ness and oh, by the way, tell your parents to stop as well. There's not one situation concerning this that I can be one-upped on. Doubt me? Try Me. You what to quit? Please do. I pay a bunch of taxes and gladly do so to ensure the first mandate of the constitution, national security, is met. Listening to cry baby academy students and their parents is not on the list of things I agree to pay for.

It has been brought up that current Sailors and Marines would be disgusted at the lack of resolve and toughness exhibited by those confined behind the gates at USNA. That may very well be true if they knew about it but guess what, most of us don't and didn't give a snap where you went to college. Show up to serve with my son without the moral, mental, tactical, and physical toughness required to do the mission and he will eat your lunch and make you wish you were back at Bancroft.

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Don't hold back, Doc.
 
Devil Doc said:
I started a thread a couple months ago wondering why plebes were going home after just a few days of being cooped up in a room with AC and a shower and food and whatnot. This photo is my second ship, the Good Ship Cochrane, swinging on the hook inport Phuket after 110 days at sea. We were in the Persian Gulf/North Arabian Sea AOR during the Iran/Iraq war which was long before young people currently suffering for a grateful nation at our service academies were born. We had no liberty during that time and the first thing the Sailors from 1st Division had to do after pulling into port was to scrub the sides and paint.

I get it. Life sucks today but guess what? Life as you know it will change in four years no matter how you handle this experience. My recommendation as a retired Senior Chief with Navy fleet and Marine FMF and HQ and instructor experience is to stop your whiny a$$ cry baby-ness and oh, by the way, tell your parents to stop as well. There's not one situation concerning this that I can be one-upped on. Doubt me? Try Me. You what to quit? Please do. I pay a bunch of taxes and gladly do so to ensure the first mandate of the constitution, national security, is met. Listening to cry baby academy students and their parents is not on the list of things I agree to pay for.

It has been brought up that current Sailors and Marines would be disgusted at the lack of resolve and toughness exhibited by those confined behind the gates at USNA. That may very well be true if they knew about it but guess what, most of us don't and didn't give a snap where you went to college. Show up to serve with my son without the moral, mental, tactical, and physical toughness required to do the mission and he will eat your lunch and make you wish you were back at Bancroft.

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That was/is an epic post And perfect picture. From my gut to your keyboard.

Did you partake of any of the amenities for which Phuket has been so famous for?

Looks like some of those sailors weren’t wearing shirts. What’s up with that?

What is involved in the process of scrubbing/scraping and painting? Was it about 75 degrees Fahrenheit and low 30’s humidity?
 
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helmsdown said:
ISO Mids are given a time slot and allow to work out at Hospital Point and a lot of them do. Only those tested positive are restricted to quarters.
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As someone recently released from iso, this is not true at all. All negatives and positives are confined to the room with the exception of the now 1.5 hour outside time each day(was 1 hour.). Some plebes were fried for just playing basketball.

ROM on the other hand are allowed to exercise (as far as I know) at hospital point while wearing brown shirts to identify themselves as ROM.
 
cb7893 said:
That was/is an epic post And perfect picture. From my gut to your keyboard.

Did you partake of any of the amenities for which Phuket has been so famous for?

Looks like some of those sailors weren’t wearing shirts. What’s up with that?

What is involved in the process of scrubbing/scraping and painting? Was it about 75 degrees Fahrenheit and low 30’s humidity?
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First, I was not referring to the great parents we have here as members as whiny. You all are great.

Next, I reached out to an old shipmate about the side scrubbing going on. The photo in my ranting post above shows locals we hired to do the work. This thumbnail shows a barge they brought alongside for our guys to use. The goal is to scrub off enough stuff so paint will stick and the ship looks presentable when departing.
cochrane1.jpg

I dug deep on the ship's FB page and found lots of conversation. One discussion was about the number of days we spent at sea. The numbers the former crew came up with were all over the place, but the reason I have always remembered is the T-shirt said 110 days. Yes, I can literally say BTDT and got the T-shirt. Plus as somebody pointed out, the cruise book said it was 110 days. That's not USS Eisenhower record numbers but it's a long time without liberty. Speaking of liberty, Phuket was our first port after that deployment. Here's part of a conversation on the FB page I had with a then BTFN who wrecked a motorcycle.

BTFN: are you the Doc Smith (not my real name) that stayed with me thru my Thailand motorcycle ordeal? Me: yep, that was a crazy trip, huh? BTFN: wow!! Yes it was one heckuva ride. I thought I'd never get outta that Bangkok mash unit hospital.......and full of morphine. 30 something years later THANK YOU!!

We pulled in with two other small boys from Battle Group Alpha. The Midway I would find out later was in Pattaya Beach. The junior corpsmen (I was an HM2) were assigned permanent medical guard with the shore patrol. The IDCs would rotate covering medical on the three ships. Whichever ship had the duty hoisted the Mike flag. I packed a bag for a week or how many days we were supposed to be there and I didn't see the ship again for about three weeks. The above mentioned E-3 had rented a motorcycle and wrecked it. More on that later.

I spent my days ashore in Phuket going to the beach, eating, and shopping. The best lobster in the world was found at the No. 4 restaurant. It was a dirty little place but had great food and great prices. There were representatives from the military attache attached to the embassy in Bangkok that arranged for rooms for the shore patrol and I got a bungalow at a fancy hotel all to myself. I took a bag of medical stuff but didn't use much of it except on one of the attache members. He needed a shot of antibiotics.

BTFN Jones I'll call him wrecked a motorcycle. We were not supposed to ride motorcycles or jet skies. Sailors did it anyway and Jones fractured his distal radius and ulna. It came time for the ship leave and the CO, CDR Dennis C. Blair told me to get Jones out of that place. The captain didn't use those exact words. I went to the hospital and Jones was in bed next to an open window with a partially torn screen. The air conditioning was the open windows and ceiling fans. The DISBO sent per diem money for Jones and me and I sent word to my HMC to get me the cash he was keeping for me in the narcotics safe. My orders were to wait for the Belleau Wood to pull in and have Jones evaluated by their medical officer. That had been arranged by naval message and they were expecting us. The Belleau Wood didn't arrive though for two days. We stayed in a 5 star resort and basically had the island to ourselves for 48 hours. I needed a break and cheered when I saw that big ship break the horizon. I got Jones to medical where they xrayed him and said, yep it's broke. They put on a new cast and we left the ship. Now what? The amphibious group was going to the IO and we were not going back. We didn't even have uniforms. I did my medical guard duties in shorts and flip flops.

The embassy knew we stayed behind and so did the air force senior master sergeant who I gave the antibiotics to. He arranged a flight to Bangkok. Leaving Phuket I saw from the plane the small islands that appear on The Man With the Golden Gun. That's at least the third Bond referenced place I've been to.
phuket.jpg

We went to the embassy and stayed in the apartment of an IS1, a first class intelligence specialist. The plan was to stay in Bangkok and take a bus to Pattaya Beach and catch a ride to Subic Bay with the Midway. It took about three days for that to happen, meanwhile the IS1 showed us Patpong and Soi Cowboy. I was still single and in my early-ish 20s but didn't do anything I'm ashamed of. I had real Thai food and drink. It was a great visit. We took a bumpy bus ride to Pattaya Beach and the Midway was anchored in the harbor. We got on a boat and rode it to the ship and explained why we were there and were escorted to the personnel office. They showed us to our berthing compartment and I asked, what now. The PN1 said, well we don't get underway for three days so just be back by the time we leave. OK. Will do.

The rest of the story doesn't involve Phuket but is still very interesting but I will close with this. The Midway left Thailand and the next stop was Subic. I didn't know how much more I could stand. I did though go into town because it was going to be the last time in Olongapo as I had orders to instructor duty. That's where I got the T-shirt. On Magsaysay Street. We got on a bus to Clarke AFB and took a plane and with a couple stops we finally got back to Yokosuka. I was happy to see the ship and even more happy to see the HM3 who had checked in as my replacement.
 
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^^^ Talk about independent steaming by @Devil Doc . And all without cell phone, texts, GPS, apps, or email. Epic. Great reference to early career of Admiral Denny Blair.

Reminds me in an odd way of when I PCSed from Rota to Naples via POV. Three glorious weeks, no one knew where I was, no GPS just some Michelin maps, no speaking of English, took side trips where I felt like it, unstructured and untethered, a road trip to remember. I felt inordinately proud of myself, early 20’s, out and about in the world.
 
Real question: how are USAFA and USMA, CG, USMMA doing? Moral wise?

They aren’t surrounded by a town, like fish in a bubble, visitors at the gates like at usna. Or are they? Are visitors coming on the yard? Are they having similar social media speak-outs as usna?
 
Admiral and then DNI Blair came to the ship with a reputation and as mentioned, we had no Internet but was told that we had a hotshot coming to take over. We did the change of command at sea. He relieved CDR James Francis Shannahan III who was the best CO I had in 26 years. Back to Blair. We took the time to dip below the equator to do a crossing the line ceremony. This was in the early 80s before the process was diluted. Capt. Blair, my chief, and I were the first three through the line. The CO for obvious reasons and us corpsmen to provide medical coverage. Blair is also famous for water skiing behind the Cochrane. It's on his Wiki page. This is him getting into the gig to be taken behind the ship.

blair.jpg
 
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