Agree completely. The only thing I was attempting to point out is that successful completion of the program is probably more in the hands of the cadets themselves than some posters would want one to believe. To estblish a more agressive mindset for candidates during these austere times is definitely benificial.
Update on disenrollment from NROTC
- Thread starter Gojira
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Pima
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AJM,
I think that was why gojira shared her story. It takes a lot to open your heart when it reeling in pain and fear.
I also think that many candidates do not read the fine print when they accept the ROTC scholarship. They are on cloud nine celebrating that they never think that they might not commission.
Look around the threads, every yr there are cadets/mids that either want to leave or are being asked to leave and now that scholarship is a big factor.
For example, AFROTC scholarship recipients don't understand that C200 yr is their make or break yr. and if not selected for SFT they can be dis-enrolled. They typically not asked to repay those 1or 2 yrs of tuition and stipend, but the problem is now they don't have the scholarship to pay for the next 2 yrs at college. They never read that fine print and now it is biting them in their wallet. They never asked if scholarship recipients get an edge for that board, because if they did they would know it is masked. They assumed that because they were on paper the top 20% from a scholarship perspective it would parlay over into their standing at ROTC. It doesn't.
I think that was why gojira shared her story. It takes a lot to open your heart when it reeling in pain and fear.
I also think that many candidates do not read the fine print when they accept the ROTC scholarship. They are on cloud nine celebrating that they never think that they might not commission.
Look around the threads, every yr there are cadets/mids that either want to leave or are being asked to leave and now that scholarship is a big factor.
For example, AFROTC scholarship recipients don't understand that C200 yr is their make or break yr. and if not selected for SFT they can be dis-enrolled. They typically not asked to repay those 1or 2 yrs of tuition and stipend, but the problem is now they don't have the scholarship to pay for the next 2 yrs at college. They never read that fine print and now it is biting them in their wallet. They never asked if scholarship recipients get an edge for that board, because if they did they would know it is masked. They assumed that because they were on paper the top 20% from a scholarship perspective it would parlay over into their standing at ROTC. It doesn't.
NorwichDad
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I am truly sorry for you and your son. Can you continue to appeal?
I really hope you succeed.
Thanks for posting because it does help many others.
gettingmoregrayhair
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Thank you for sharing your painful story. I hope there is some relief out there for you and your son. I am hoping to learn from this situation, but unfortunately where does a parent go to "read the fine print?"
My DD has just started her freshman year, NROTC scholarship at an in-state public university, so we would be OK, not great, but OK if something like this happened.
She and I have both searched and researched everything we can find online, we have read the Midshipmen Handbook, but nowhere can I find specifics of these kinds of details.
Yes, I have seen the height/weight charts, but it seems like I am seeing references to other "intangibles" from other posts.
These basics I understand: be physically fit within the PRT standards, be academically in compliance, but then I hear references to other scores and evaluations. Where can that information be found?
My DD has just started her freshman year, NROTC scholarship at an in-state public university, so we would be OK, not great, but OK if something like this happened.
She and I have both searched and researched everything we can find online, we have read the Midshipmen Handbook, but nowhere can I find specifics of these kinds of details.
Yes, I have seen the height/weight charts, but it seems like I am seeing references to other "intangibles" from other posts.
These basics I understand: be physically fit within the PRT standards, be academically in compliance, but then I hear references to other scores and evaluations. Where can that information be found?
I am sorry to be late to commenting on this thought, but your statement made the assumption here that he was aware that he was not abiding by the standard.
I'm speaking as the father of a daughter who exceeds the weight standard on the scale by more than Gojira's son (and is probably quite a bit shorter). She had herself taped by the PMS doing her scholarship interview (put into her interview records). She has been taped every time and at least to my knowledge, she has yet to fail a taping (she is a MS3 this year). She knows the standard and knows the consequence for not making tape.
There is a very specific standard (link in a recent thread) that talks about how it is done for AROTC. Even with those very specific instruction, you can have an operator who for whatever reason (interpretation of the instructions, capability of using the instrument aka sausage fingers, or just don't want a good outcome) comes up with a set of measurements that are unfavorable with regards to the specification.
I don't know the specifics of Gojira's son's situation, but it is highly unlikely that he gained those 8 lbs his last semester. I suspect that he was passed semester after semester by whatever regimen was in place. IIRC he was not informed that this was a problem until late in the process that there was a problem. He put his trust in a system (not just the written rule, but the people carrying it out) that ultimately let him down.
What I am saying here is that it is easy to say "follow the rules", but when the interpretation of "the rules" has a subjective bent to it that changes unpredictably, it is hard to hold someone responsible for that which he could not predict. Unfortunately, they did and that is what give me the worry.
ROTC is about leadership, but it is also about teamwork and I would say his "team" let him down as much as he let himself get in that position.
All the fine print can be hard to find. Basically you have covered the most important items:
Stay within the height/weight standards or pass the tape test.
Pass the PRT
Stay above the GPA requirements
Stay on track to graduate in the required time
Don't get into trouble, no MIP's, DUI's or other infractions
Don't Lie, cheat or steal.....Honor Code stuff
Since your daughter is already on a scholarship she will not have to worry as much about making it to Advanced Standing as long as she follows the rules above.
This site is a great place to watch for things she needs to be aware of and any changes that happen in ROTC.
Best of luck to your daughter.
NorwichDad
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After all these months of following gojira's predicament, I still have the same basic question:
why was I surprised about the magnitude of the payback obligation?
I think there are three reasons:
1) In ordinary college scholarships, when a student on scholarship fails to maintain the standards required (conduct, GPA), the scholarship is removed, but there is no obligation to pay back prior years of scholarship payment.
2) There was no discussion that I recall in the Scholarship Award letter that arrived to our house about the scholarship benefits needing to be repaid in full from Day 1 if the cadet were to be separated from ROTC in, say, year four.
3) The ROTC Scholarship Cadet Contract itself (perhaps there are other documents presented to a cadet upon signing the Contract) is not clear about the exact nature, the specifics, of the "obligation".
http://www.missouristate.edu/assets/milcsi/DA597_3_Scholarship_Cadet_Contract.pdf In 3 (c) is found what to me is a rather general phrase under Cadet Obligations. It says:
"I understand that I will incur an active duty and/or reimbursement obligation after the first day of my MSII year".
OK, that's fine, but where does it go on to explain that the cadet has no choice in whether the obligation is active duty or reimbursement? Where is reimbursement defined? If one is to assume that an ROTC scholarship is similar to other college scholarships, the reimbursement obligation would probably, likely, refer to scholarship dollars ONLY from the beginning of the Semester in which the student failed to meet the scholarship standards, not for all the prior years at that college when the student met the scholarship standards.
I hope that cadets are given supplementary materials to explain all the important aspects of the Form 597-3, and are clearly briefed on what "active duty and/or reimbursement obligation" means. Who goes over those details with the cadet when he/she arrives on campus, passes the APFT, and then signs the Scholarship Contract? Remember, these are by and large 18 or 19 year olds who have never signed an important contract in their lives, and may not be as cautious as their parents are to "read every word of the contract, and know what every word means". In this case, however, reading every word doesn't clearly paint the picture that the and/or isn't, and that reimbursement means all money received in arrears to day 1.
If find it interesting that in securing a home loan, there are about 75 pages of single space explanations that ensure that the borrower is clear about the obligations of repayment of the loan, and the rights of the lender if the repayments are not made. I find it interesting that these loans require, as I recall, at least 15 notazrized initials or signatures on key pages. Is there a similar procedure when a cadet takes out what is, at some schools, a $190,000 loan against future performance? Is the explanation clear and detailed when the cadet signs form 597-3?? I hope so, because neither parent nor cadet would expect such an "in-arrears" repayment obligation based solely upon the communications from Cadet Command to the Scholarship Awardee's home!
Whew! OK, I've vented. Now, move along folks, nothing to see here.
why was I surprised about the magnitude of the payback obligation?
I think there are three reasons:
1) In ordinary college scholarships, when a student on scholarship fails to maintain the standards required (conduct, GPA), the scholarship is removed, but there is no obligation to pay back prior years of scholarship payment.
2) There was no discussion that I recall in the Scholarship Award letter that arrived to our house about the scholarship benefits needing to be repaid in full from Day 1 if the cadet were to be separated from ROTC in, say, year four.
3) The ROTC Scholarship Cadet Contract itself (perhaps there are other documents presented to a cadet upon signing the Contract) is not clear about the exact nature, the specifics, of the "obligation".
http://www.missouristate.edu/assets/milcsi/DA597_3_Scholarship_Cadet_Contract.pdf In 3 (c) is found what to me is a rather general phrase under Cadet Obligations. It says:
"I understand that I will incur an active duty and/or reimbursement obligation after the first day of my MSII year".
OK, that's fine, but where does it go on to explain that the cadet has no choice in whether the obligation is active duty or reimbursement? Where is reimbursement defined? If one is to assume that an ROTC scholarship is similar to other college scholarships, the reimbursement obligation would probably, likely, refer to scholarship dollars ONLY from the beginning of the Semester in which the student failed to meet the scholarship standards, not for all the prior years at that college when the student met the scholarship standards.
I hope that cadets are given supplementary materials to explain all the important aspects of the Form 597-3, and are clearly briefed on what "active duty and/or reimbursement obligation" means. Who goes over those details with the cadet when he/she arrives on campus, passes the APFT, and then signs the Scholarship Contract? Remember, these are by and large 18 or 19 year olds who have never signed an important contract in their lives, and may not be as cautious as their parents are to "read every word of the contract, and know what every word means". In this case, however, reading every word doesn't clearly paint the picture that the and/or isn't, and that reimbursement means all money received in arrears to day 1.
If find it interesting that in securing a home loan, there are about 75 pages of single space explanations that ensure that the borrower is clear about the obligations of repayment of the loan, and the rights of the lender if the repayments are not made. I find it interesting that these loans require, as I recall, at least 15 notazrized initials or signatures on key pages. Is there a similar procedure when a cadet takes out what is, at some schools, a $190,000 loan against future performance? Is the explanation clear and detailed when the cadet signs form 597-3?? I hope so, because neither parent nor cadet would expect such an "in-arrears" repayment obligation based solely upon the communications from Cadet Command to the Scholarship Awardee's home!
Whew! OK, I've vented. Now, move along folks, nothing to see here.
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They charged full list price for tuition for 8 semesters. Since we paid the housing, they did not include that.
If he had scrubbed after 1 year but before he signed contract in sophomore year, he would not have been liable for year 1 of tuition.
Never saw contract. In fact, when we requested his file as he disenrolled, the unit gave him a stack of reports, but not the contract. I would love to actually see it. He never got a copy, even after signing. Also, most of the performance reports were never signed by his command until his final semester, about 1 month before his disenrollment.
As for the weight, he never failed weight test before final semester. Cancelled gym membership because his classes were so intense and he was trying to save money, but was still working out, just not as much as before.
He also never failed a PT in four years, and was at the top of scores for each of those semesters.
If he had scrubbed after 1 year but before he signed contract in sophomore year, he would not have been liable for year 1 of tuition.
Never saw contract. In fact, when we requested his file as he disenrolled, the unit gave him a stack of reports, but not the contract. I would love to actually see it. He never got a copy, even after signing. Also, most of the performance reports were never signed by his command until his final semester, about 1 month before his disenrollment.
As for the weight, he never failed weight test before final semester. Cancelled gym membership because his classes were so intense and he was trying to save money, but was still working out, just not as much as before.
He also never failed a PT in four years, and was at the top of scores for each of those semesters.
If this is honestly the case then I can't see how your appeal didn't go through. My old ROTC detachment STILL has my contract in their records (even after I graduated). And of course they gave me a copy the moment after I signed it. If his ROTC unit "lost" his contract then that shows serious incompetence on their part. And if they failed to even give him a copy, shouldn't that have legal ramifications (but I'm no lawyer)?
How can your son be held legally accountable to a contract that nobody has on file?
Pima
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I agree with Nick, our DS actually had to sign his contract a couple of times, 1x when he contracted, 1x after SFT, and 1x because the cgpa min had changed from the original 2.0 to 2.5 for all scholarship cadets.
Just the other day he was missing some paperwork for his PCS, and called the det. They emailed it right over to him.
Just the other day he was missing some paperwork for his PCS, and called the det. They emailed it right over to him.
Two people in unit had similar names and I believe that at some point in the process ouur son's file mixed up with other mid.
I do think it is curious that he didn't get this when all other forms were turned over.
Lots of paperwork was handled poorly. Evaluations were not given to son to sign for weeks, months or even years (yes, years).
I have other stories about paperwork being done wrong or untimely, but I can't post specifics.
I do think it is curious that he didn't get this when all other forms were turned over.
Lots of paperwork was handled poorly. Evaluations were not given to son to sign for weeks, months or even years (yes, years).
I have other stories about paperwork being done wrong or untimely, but I can't post specifics.
Not relevant. The scholarship contract is not between the Navy and gojira, it is between the Navy and the ADULT son of gojira. The government has no obligation to inform, speak with, or interact in any way with the parent of an adult... in fact it would likely be a violation of privacy laws.
This precisely why in my post above I hoped that the cadre THOROUGHLY educates and briefs every mid/cadet upon signing the contract... that 1) it is the MILITARY's choice whether the reimbursement obligation is met through active duty -or- money, and that the financial reimbursement obligation is not just for the year of non-performance, but for the entire college career.
Please re-read my post. Im aware the contract wasnt between gojira and the Navy. I was under one of those contracts myself for several years. I was referring to her claim that the Navy did not give HER SON a copy of the contract, as well as the fact that they apparently "lost" their own copy.
^ ah, OK, thanks for clarifying. However, in comment to that, he signed the contract, so if he didn't get a copy of it for his own records, I'm not sure how that is treated in contracts litigation. Is the obligation on the contract signer to secure a copy, or is it the obligation on the part of the contract originator? I'm asking b/c I have no idea. I also don't know how contract law would differ between civilian commerce, and government.
He asked for copies from his whole NROTC file. He got everything, except that.
A simple error in copying, perhaps?
I do find it fascinating as a coincidence since it was lost, previously, when him and his fellow midn were signing.
He should contact unit to ask for it again, but it is a bit awkward months later.
He did have to professionally clean and return all uniforms provided a few months ago, as well.
Too bad he couldn't return the $600 worth of uniforms he paid for, right before failing tape measure test!
A simple error in copying, perhaps?
I do find it fascinating as a coincidence since it was lost, previously, when him and his fellow midn were signing.
He should contact unit to ask for it again, but it is a bit awkward months later.
He did have to professionally clean and return all uniforms provided a few months ago, as well.
Too bad he couldn't return the $600 worth of uniforms he paid for, right before failing tape measure test!
I have never heard of anyone not getting a copy of their scholarship/enlistment contract. That just baffles me.
There were too many instances to count of sloppy paperwork distribution in the unit.
I am not sure how else to describe the last minute efforts to have son sign numerous performance and fitness evaluations one month before disenrollment. Stuff going back months and years.
Might have been helpful to see those when written.
If I had known this happened to son at the timeI might have said that is seemed odd and unprofessional, but didn't know about this paperwork dump until after his disenrollment.
I think it was planned ahead of time and the unit was getting their ducks in a row. I believe that they needed to trim the fat from the unit (pardon pun), and that once kid missed that tape measure mark he was chosen.
I am not sure how else to describe the last minute efforts to have son sign numerous performance and fitness evaluations one month before disenrollment. Stuff going back months and years.
Might have been helpful to see those when written.
If I had known this happened to son at the timeI might have said that is seemed odd and unprofessional, but didn't know about this paperwork dump until after his disenrollment.
I think it was planned ahead of time and the unit was getting their ducks in a row. I believe that they needed to trim the fat from the unit (pardon pun), and that once kid missed that tape measure mark he was chosen.