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I have heard that admission into the USNA is the most competitive -- is this true??
USNA hardest admission?
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Whistle Pig
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I believe you are correct. But all are highly competitive for admission. Unquestionably more so than even the Ivies, which would score higher on academic measures and strike out in other areas. The USMMA and USCGA are possibly the least competitive.
But going down this path strikes me as meaningless and silly. Sorta like debating how many camels can pass thru the needle's eye, angels can pose on the head of a pin, if God can make a rock too heavy for him to lift, or ACT vs. SAT. The issue is "so what" beyond SA trivial pursuit.
But going down this path strikes me as meaningless and silly. Sorta like debating how many camels can pass thru the needle's eye, angels can pose on the head of a pin, if God can make a rock too heavy for him to lift, or ACT vs. SAT. The issue is "so what" beyond SA trivial pursuit.
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hmm, I'm not sure about the USMMA and USCGA being "possibly the least competitive..." I have heard and seen differently. I think each is competitive in its own right. For one specific example: DS has LOA to USNA and USMMA...but was deferred to "regular decision" by USCGA and USAFA has basically said nothing beyond classifying him "candidate." So, we are all guessing here. Each Academy has its own mysterious way of choosing who they will offer appointments to...
Most of you have done all there is to do and should concentrate on keeping your grades and activities up while enjoying your senior year for now (or whatever you are doing right now). Then hope and pray and wait for the news about all of the puzzle pieces fitting together...Good luck!
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Exactly, I'm wondering what Whistle Pig is basing that on. USNA wasn't that tought 7 years ago when I got in, certainly wasn't harder than CGA.
CGA was a primary, with USNA as a back up and USMMA as a back up to that.
I remember the news paper article about it...or was is U.S. News...
The order at the time was; USCGA, USMA, USNA, USAFA, and USMMA. These five service academies were well above most colleges however. At the time Julliard was the most selective.
CGA was a primary, with USNA as a back up and USMMA as a back up to that.
I remember the news paper article about it...or was is U.S. News...
The order at the time was; USCGA, USMA, USNA, USAFA, and USMMA. These five service academies were well above most colleges however. At the time Julliard was the most selective.
Well after your get accepted, here is how they shape up against America's top 500 Colleges. USMA is number 6 and you'll need to go to the second page to get to the USNA @ #36.
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/94/opinions_college08_Americas-Best-Colleges_Rank.html
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/94/opinions_college08_Americas-Best-Colleges_Rank.html
Just_A_Mom
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EVERY selective college is tougher to get into now than just 7 years ago.
According to the College Board the acceptance rate at:
USNA is 14%
USMA is 15%.
USAFA is 17%
USCGA is 27%
USMMA is 26%
Does this mean USNA is the most difficult to gain entry? Not really. Remember first you are all competing to be the top in your congressional district - if you are top and qualified then you are in. This competition varies widely between congressional districts. Many qualified candidate in Northern Va have a difficult time gaining an appointment while a lesser candidate from Montana is top dog.
Competitiveness between the academies varies widely from state to state as well. Out west USAFA is very popular and competitive. However a candidate from a congressional district in Western NC or West Virginia may have an "easy" go by being the top candidate.
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In that last line, Just A Mom has illustrated the problem with the Congressional Nominations process.
We keep getting different numbers for the same schools....
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I concur.Whistle Pig said:
"Most Competitive" is relative and based on many variables. There is whether or not a congressional nomination is needed, or how many people applied to said college and how many are needed to fill the incoming class. There are many different things that would really be impossible to tell. Its comparing apples to oranges. You just can't do it, although many will try
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Answer
It's good to hear from you, Alex. Congratulations on your acceptance into the Class of 2012.
The typical numbers run like this: There are 10,000 to 12,000 files opened each year; of those approximately 5,000 to 7,000 complete their file for consideration for admission; of those approximately 3,000 to 4,000 receive a nomination; of those approximately 2,000 to 2,500 are fully qualified; and of those approximately 1,200 are offered admission and enter West Point each year.
Another interesting measure is the acceptance rate of offers of admission. That rate presently exceeds 80%, which has been the highest acceptance rate of any major college or university over the past three to four years!
I hope that answers your question, Alex. Good luck at West Point!
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I found the above doing an internet search.... with all those numbers it would be interesting to see how someone would come up with 14%...
I think if you want to figure out the true acceptance rates you have to use the number of those that actually have nominations.. so that would actually make the % higher for USNA, USAFA and USMA correct?
It's good to hear from you, Alex. Congratulations on your acceptance into the Class of 2012.
The typical numbers run like this: There are 10,000 to 12,000 files opened each year; of those approximately 5,000 to 7,000 complete their file for consideration for admission; of those approximately 3,000 to 4,000 receive a nomination; of those approximately 2,000 to 2,500 are fully qualified; and of those approximately 1,200 are offered admission and enter West Point each year.
Another interesting measure is the acceptance rate of offers of admission. That rate presently exceeds 80%, which has been the highest acceptance rate of any major college or university over the past three to four years!
I hope that answers your question, Alex. Good luck at West Point!
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I found the above doing an internet search.... with all those numbers it would be interesting to see how someone would come up with 14%...
I think if you want to figure out the true acceptance rates you have to use the number of those that actually have nominations.. so that would actually make the % higher for USNA, USAFA and USMA correct?
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I concur.
"Most Competitive" is relative and based on many variables. There is whether or not a congressional nomination is needed, or how many people applied to said college and how many are needed to fill the incoming class. There are many different things that would really be impossible to tell. Its comparing apples to oranges. You just can't do it, although many will try
Oranges are better than apples.
Luigi59
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Number of appointments offered (approx 1,400) divided by number of applications (approx 10,000) = 14%.
The numbers for the Class of 2010 were:
USMA: 10,276 applications, 1,605 offers, 1,311 sworn (81.7%)
USNA: 10,747 applications, 1,510 offers, 1,228 sworn (81,3%)
USAFA: 9,255 applications, 1,720 offers, 1,336 sworn (77.7%)
I don't have a Class of 2010 profile for USGCA, but I have 2011 and 2012 to compare:
(2011) USCGA: 3,345 applications, 341 offers, 275 sworn (80.6%)
(2012) USCGA: 2,804 applications, 412 offers, 293 sworn (71.1%)
Some academies use a very inflated number (>10,000) by counting anyone who starts an application (even if you just type in your name and address an go no further) as an application.
For example, for the Class of 2011 at USNA, they said they received 11,999 applications, yet they only deemed 8,822 as "candidates" which is a more realistic number.
Just A Mom said:
Which we have proved to be false, at least for USCGA. The numbers are there to see, regardless of what The College Baord reports.
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Those numbers are wrong though... 10,000 applications were not completed.. those were started... it should count only the applicant that are actually completed.. and even those with nominations so that makes the numbers higher.. like the post I had found on the internet search from a guy involved with USMA... even if you use the 5-7k number the percentage is still higher.
approximately 5,000 to 7,000 complete their file for consideration for admission; of those approximately 3,000 to 4,000 receive a nomination; of those approximately 2,000 to 2,500 are fully qualified; and of those approximately 1,200 are offered admission and enter West Point each year.
comparing all the schools would be impossible, and admissions would be interpeted differently by everyone,whether you count those that filled out two lines on an application or one that completed the entire thing... and if nominated or not... etc.....etc etc etc
Why do you claim that those are not completed applications - at the Parents Club Presidents meeting at USNA in September, when admissions spoke they indicated that those where completed application - not all went on to apply for nominations or pursue medical waivers but for comparison sake they were fully completed on the USNA side. They only report completed apps to US News, college board, and other publications like Fisk. They made that fairly clear at the Presidents conference.
usna1985
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Trying to figure out "most competitive" is an exercise in futility. The SA acceptance rate is skewed (for all) b/c it is based on the number of candidates who open an application, not the number who complete the process. Not sure that is the same for civilian schools.
Suffice it to say that all of the SAs are extremely competitive and compare favorably in their selection rate to the Ivies and other top schools. As to which of the SAs is most competitive . . . it too varies from year to year and the fact one may be "more competitve" in a particular year may be due largely to the fact that, for some reason, it's more "popular." All SAs are great choices.
Suffice it to say that all of the SAs are extremely competitive and compare favorably in their selection rate to the Ivies and other top schools. As to which of the SAs is most competitive . . . it too varies from year to year and the fact one may be "more competitve" in a particular year may be due largely to the fact that, for some reason, it's more "popular." All SAs are great choices.
Just_A_Mom
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This is impossible to do. You must complete the preliminary application. This includes - much more than your name and address.
You must report your academic record.
One big difference between the academies and other schools is that anyone can apply and complete the full application to Harvard - if they pay the application fee. For the academies - you must pass the preliminary phase to move on in the application process.
All statistics from US News and the college board are self reported. They don't make up the numbers the academies make them up.
USNA1985 is right - it is an exercise in futility. I have been reading forums for nearly two years - I have seen kids get into one academy and not the other. I have seen kids get accepted to Ivy league schools (Harvard) and not the SA to which they applied and vice versa.
You are right that they use every applicant but, so does almost every other school in the college catalog. Factor in that the SA's don't charge an application fee and you really get a lot of applicants.
Whistle Pig
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By most traditional measures ...% of applicants accepted, SAT/ACT mean scores, mean gpa's, #s of NM scholars, etc. ...year in, year out USNA is the most difficult to gain admission. USCGA, USMMA are less so even excluding that one does not need the nom process @ USCGA. Our Mid was asked if he'd accept a nom to USMMA even tho he did not apply. (He gratefully declined.)
The best way to look at the applicant pool is taking a 3-5 year rolling average. USNA always wins in that one.
So I'll stand by both claims:
1. USNA is the most competitive
2. Among the USMA, USAFA, and USNA, it's splitting hairs, makes no difference.
I'm convinced that service options (USNA has the greatest variety by far), location (Annapolis is closer to the masses than Colorado Springs), and uniforms (let's face it, those USNA white covers and dress chokers beat the gray flannelettes of Army or being disguised as a greyhound driver
) drive the numbers. 
The best way to look at the applicant pool is taking a 3-5 year rolling average. USNA always wins in that one.
So I'll stand by both claims:
1. USNA is the most competitive
2. Among the USMA, USAFA, and USNA, it's splitting hairs, makes no difference.
I'm convinced that service options (USNA has the greatest variety by far), location (Annapolis is closer to the masses than Colorado Springs), and uniforms (let's face it, those USNA white covers and dress chokers beat the gray flannelettes of Army or being disguised as a greyhound driver
) drive the numbers.
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Absolutely agree with one addition...and I know this is not popular here but, the USMA doesn't really have a flight program (read that as: fighter jets) and the sobering fact of being a ground pounder as your first billet.
USMA grad wants out of military
Times Herald-Record (Hudson Valley, NY) ^ | 7/17/07 | Greg Bruno
West Point — A 2004 West Point graduate who found God after graduation has turned to the courts to win approval for a conscientious objector discharge.
Capt. Peter D. Brown, currently stationed at Camp Stryker in Iraq, has retained the help of the New York Civil Liberties Union to battle Uncle Sam.
"Jesus taught that I should bless those who curse me and not fight back against evil with force," Brown wrote in court papers filed last week in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.
"So instead of paying back others with force, I am supposed to love everyone; killing others is not loving them," he wrote.
Deborah Karpatkin, an attorney representing Brown, said her client sought legal assistance from the NYCLU after an Army review board refused his conscientious objector application last year.
The Pentagon had no immediate comment about the case yesterday. In a statement, the Army said it reviews each conscientious objector request on its individual merits, but added, "Soldiers serve in an all-volunteer Army because they chose to."
According to court papers, Brown's anti-war sentiment surfaced between 2004 and 2006, while he was stationed at Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Drum, N.Y. But it wasn't until training in April 2006, at the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, Calif., that a religious aversion to force was cemented.
"Although it was only blank ammunition, I experienced what it would be like to kill another person," Brown wrote, according to court papers. "It appalled me. And I found that it hurt my performance as an infantry officer. I realized that I could not protect my men."
Since the Army's initial rejection, Brown, a native of Spring, Texas, has been accepted to a seminary in St. Louis and plans to attend if the Army grants him an honorable discharge, Karpatkin said.
He is assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 14th Infantry Regiment, and tasked with noncombat-related duty dealing with alleged insurgents. He was not available for comment yesterday.
In April, Karpatkin helped another Fort Drum soldier, Sgt. Corey Martin, 24, win approval from the Army Conscientious Objector Review Board. But the fate of Brown's case is far from certain.
Since 2001, roughly 275 Army soldiers have sought conscientious objector status, defined as a solider with moral or ethical beliefs prohibiting the use of force in combat. Less than half of those were approved, according to the Army.
J.E. McNeil, executive director of the Center on Conscience & War in Washington, said she's seen the number of requests for help with conscientious objector applications from all four branches of service spike from about one per month before 9/11 to as many as three a day now.
Only about a third of those applications are ever granted, McNeil said.
Karpatkin is confident Brown will be among them.
"In general this is the toughest discharge to get from the Army. It is not easy; it is not convenient," the attorney said.
"But Capt. Brown is unable to do the job he was trained to do. He cannot kill, he cannot fire a weapon, he cannot lead men in battle. He cannot be a warrior."
USMA grad wants out of military
Times Herald-Record (Hudson Valley, NY) ^ | 7/17/07 | Greg Bruno
West Point — A 2004 West Point graduate who found God after graduation has turned to the courts to win approval for a conscientious objector discharge.
Capt. Peter D. Brown, currently stationed at Camp Stryker in Iraq, has retained the help of the New York Civil Liberties Union to battle Uncle Sam.
"Jesus taught that I should bless those who curse me and not fight back against evil with force," Brown wrote in court papers filed last week in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.
"So instead of paying back others with force, I am supposed to love everyone; killing others is not loving them," he wrote.
Deborah Karpatkin, an attorney representing Brown, said her client sought legal assistance from the NYCLU after an Army review board refused his conscientious objector application last year.
The Pentagon had no immediate comment about the case yesterday. In a statement, the Army said it reviews each conscientious objector request on its individual merits, but added, "Soldiers serve in an all-volunteer Army because they chose to."
According to court papers, Brown's anti-war sentiment surfaced between 2004 and 2006, while he was stationed at Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Drum, N.Y. But it wasn't until training in April 2006, at the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, Calif., that a religious aversion to force was cemented.
"Although it was only blank ammunition, I experienced what it would be like to kill another person," Brown wrote, according to court papers. "It appalled me. And I found that it hurt my performance as an infantry officer. I realized that I could not protect my men."
Since the Army's initial rejection, Brown, a native of Spring, Texas, has been accepted to a seminary in St. Louis and plans to attend if the Army grants him an honorable discharge, Karpatkin said.
He is assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 14th Infantry Regiment, and tasked with noncombat-related duty dealing with alleged insurgents. He was not available for comment yesterday.
In April, Karpatkin helped another Fort Drum soldier, Sgt. Corey Martin, 24, win approval from the Army Conscientious Objector Review Board. But the fate of Brown's case is far from certain.
Since 2001, roughly 275 Army soldiers have sought conscientious objector status, defined as a solider with moral or ethical beliefs prohibiting the use of force in combat. Less than half of those were approved, according to the Army.
J.E. McNeil, executive director of the Center on Conscience & War in Washington, said she's seen the number of requests for help with conscientious objector applications from all four branches of service spike from about one per month before 9/11 to as many as three a day now.
Only about a third of those applications are ever granted, McNeil said.
Karpatkin is confident Brown will be among them.
"In general this is the toughest discharge to get from the Army. It is not easy; it is not convenient," the attorney said.
"But Capt. Brown is unable to do the job he was trained to do. He cannot kill, he cannot fire a weapon, he cannot lead men in battle. He cannot be a warrior."
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Just_A_Mom
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Not sure what the above article has to do with the discussion - I am lost. 
not sure I agree with this - the options for USNA grads are not as numerous as those from USMA. Being the largest branch of service by far - the opportunities in the Army and those out of USMA are far more varied than from USNA.
Sure one is not going to be a fighter pilot - but I was at the A/N game in 2006 and one of the pilots in the flyover was a USMA grad - but a USNA grad is not going to go into Field Artillery either.
To truly see the options one would need to look at the graduating class and see where they go and what they end up doing. I can provide this info from USMA can you provide the same from USNA?
As far as being selective - SAT scores and GPA are simply a function of the quality of applicants. For USMA at least the prep school undoubtedly draws down the SAT number. Any soldier in good standing with a 1050 SAT (M & CR) will get a shot at prep and USMA. This is why they report some very low SAT's.
Some kids with very high SAT's will not get an appointment.
I have never seen any numbers on how many NM scholars win appointments - if you have those figures Whistle Pig - gladly share, please.
If you want to count Rhodes Scholars - West Point beats every SA hands down.
The bottom line is competitivness varies by geography. The academies are looking for future officers for the US Military from across the country. They want those who fit the scholar/leader/athlete model. They are NOT necessarily looking for those with perfect SAT's or 4.0 GPA's.
One criteria you didn't mention is that of being physically qualified. USMA requires the highest scores on the CFA. Lots of candidates who pass for AF and Navy don't have passing scores for Army. This is probably because Army has the most rigourous summer basic training program.
not sure I agree with this - the options for USNA grads are not as numerous as those from USMA. Being the largest branch of service by far - the opportunities in the Army and those out of USMA are far more varied than from USNA.
Sure one is not going to be a fighter pilot - but I was at the A/N game in 2006 and one of the pilots in the flyover was a USMA grad - but a USNA grad is not going to go into Field Artillery either.
To truly see the options one would need to look at the graduating class and see where they go and what they end up doing. I can provide this info from USMA can you provide the same from USNA?
As far as being selective - SAT scores and GPA are simply a function of the quality of applicants. For USMA at least the prep school undoubtedly draws down the SAT number. Any soldier in good standing with a 1050 SAT (M & CR) will get a shot at prep and USMA. This is why they report some very low SAT's.
Some kids with very high SAT's will not get an appointment.
I have never seen any numbers on how many NM scholars win appointments - if you have those figures Whistle Pig - gladly share, please.
If you want to count Rhodes Scholars - West Point beats every SA hands down.
The bottom line is competitivness varies by geography. The academies are looking for future officers for the US Military from across the country. They want those who fit the scholar/leader/athlete model. They are NOT necessarily looking for those with perfect SAT's or 4.0 GPA's.
One criteria you didn't mention is that of being physically qualified. USMA requires the highest scores on the CFA. Lots of candidates who pass for AF and Navy don't have passing scores for Army. This is probably because Army has the most rigourous summer basic training program.