Value of Education

[cmakin]

Yeah, but my kid doesn't have to worry about any 'special deal'.. he works under a contract that guarantees his time off.. and he's more than satisfied with the money he makes. I worked out of the MM&P for 34 years, and I'll tell you this; you couldn't pay me enough to go to work at MSC in any capacity.

Oh, yeah. . . when the bottom fell out in US Flag shipping in the early 80s, I dabbled with the thought if MSC. . . .but then I moved to the tug world. I feel that I made the better choice.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

Some academies' literature declares a 'value' of the education provided. For instance, I believe (but don't hold me to it) the USCGA says it's $280,000. I can't find a similar number for the USMMA. I'm just curious what that value may be, but haven't found one online. Does anyone know what that number may be, at this time?

As someone who has overseen a very tiny chunk of the federal budget

If the bosses want to know how much we are spending in a certain general subject area, an estimate , not a specific line item. number, and they want a big number I can find a big number. If they want a smaller number I will just look at things differently and get a smaller number.

These numbers do serve as a form of self generated advertisement for Congress or the public.

 

[shiner]

As someone who has overseen a very tiny chunk of the federal budget

If the bosses want to know how much we are spending in a certain general subject area, an estimate , not a specific line item. number, and they want a big number I can find a big number. If they want a smaller number I will just look at things differently and get a smaller number.

These numbers do serve as a form of self generated advertisement for Congress or the public.

Attached is the document sent to parents inquiring about this figure for 529plans - and it puts the total figure at just over $289k

 

[Mr2020]

@justdoit19 This is a bit of a drift off the thread topic, but since you asked.. Lack of time off would be the primary reason. That and I didn't want to work for the government.. There are other issues with working at MSC too.. read through some of the below linked Gcaptain forum threads and it'll give you a pretty good idea what those issues are..

The way I see it, if you're on a federal contract, GOCO, COCO, MSP, etc at the end of the day you work for the OPCO who works for the government. No argument that without government subsidies US flag shipping would be really dead.

 

[KPEngineer]

unless you're talking about european crews or a well paid nationality. blatantly false info.

And you know this how?

I have been on literally hundreds of foreign flagged vessels and conducted MLC Audits which includes a reviewing of employment agreements for a variety of nationalities only some of which were european. There are plenty of foreign flagged officers making over 100K US.

 

[deepdraft1]

The way I see it, if you're on a federal contract, GOCO, COCO, MSP, etc at the end of the day you work for the OPCO who works for the government. No argument that without government subsidies US flag shipping would be really dead.

Let me clarify it for you, since you obviously didn't comprehend what I was trying to get across to justdoit19.. I didn't want to work DIRECTLY for the government.. You capiche?

 

[Mr2020]

Let me clarify it for you, since you obviously didn't comprehend what I was trying to get across to justdoit19.. I didn't want to work DIRECTLY for the government.. You capiche?

In a way whatever "company" you work for on these types of contracts is an extension of the government. A company that only exists because of a subsidy, tariff, law etc is hardly a company, because in an unregulated market it wouldn't exist. the conmars working for the opcos today have DoD 'contractor' ID cards, but no...they work for the company.

 

[cmakin]

And you know this how?

I have been on literally hundreds of foreign flagged vessels and conducted MLC Audits which includes a reviewing of employment agreements for a variety of nationalities only some of which were european. There are plenty of foreign flagged officers making over 100K US.

Yup. Frankly, when I started with ABS, I didn't realize how much of their fleet was not US flag. Most of my surveys were on foreign flag vessels, and, like any part of the business, there are some real sad vessels and crews out there, for the most part, I found most to be capable and the officers well paid.

 

[KPEngineer]

Yup. Frankly, when I started with ABS, I didn't realize how much of their fleet was not US flag. Most of my surveys were on foreign flag vessels, and, like any part of the business, there are some real sad vessels and crews out there, for the most part, I found most to be capable and the officers well paid.

The US Maritime industry is insulated quite a bit from the rest of the world. I have met many mariners with extensive experience sailing internationally who have serious misconceptions of how the international system works. I have met people in senior roles with the CG who should know better but don't about how far behind the rest of the world the US has fallen. USCG is very good at being Port State but not so much a Flag State.

 

[cmakin]

The US Maritime industry is insulated quite a bit from the rest of the world. I have met many mariners with extensive experience sailing internationally who have serious misconceptions of how the international system works. I have met people in senior roles with the CG who should know better but don't about how far behind the rest of the world the US has fallen. USCG is very good at being Port State but not so much a Flag State.

Oh, exactly. When those Flag State inspections got ramped up in the 90s, it really added to my workload. A ship would get a letter, and I would have to attend, often to produce a "Statement of Fact" letter. There was a real issue about 10% of the time. The rest were their misunderstanding of the various conventions. Getting away from sailing in US vessels really opened my eyes. Some of the most modern vessels, and well maintained often had an FOC on the stern.

 

[KPEngineer]

Some of the most modern vessels, and well maintained often had an FOC on the stern.

Look at the various MOU White lists. The US ranks well behind the major "FOC"s. I have been on several foreign flagged vessels after they reflagged from US and they were complete trash.

 

[deepdraft1]

Look at the various MOU White lists. The US ranks well behind the major "FOC"s.

Do you know where I can find those rankings? I'd be interested in seeing them.. I have an account on Equasis.org and looked around that site, but couldn't find any ranking by flag state.. I did however find a Flag State Performance Table, published by the International Chamber of Shipping, which somewhat supports what you've posted..

 

[cmakin]

Look at the various MOU White lists. The US ranks well behind the major "FOC"s. I have been on several foreign flagged vessels after they reflagged from US and they were complete trash.

I will say that the worst vessel I ever boarded was Cypriot flagged. A real death trap. It was dropped from ABS during (and because of) my attendance. The Polish Class society accepted it and it sailed with little delay. But, as I stated, back in the 90s, I didn't survey too many new US flag vessels, but a lot FOC ones.

 

[KP Eng]

Flags of convenience exist for one reason. To generate revenue for the flag state by providing operators a reduced cost option for their fleet. That reduced cost can come in many ways beyond material inspection, particularly a more favorable legal environment to operate in. A thought of a significant seaman’s claim under the Jones Act makes that FOC look good of I don’t absolutely have to go between US ports.

 

[KPEngineer]

I did however find a Flag State Performance Table, published by the International Chamber of Shipping, which somewhat supports what you've posted..

Paris MOU
Tokyo MOU

The Paris MOU is listed Good to Bad while The Tokyo MOU is listed from Bad to Good.

Marshall Islands, Bahamas, Liberia, Malta, and AnB all rate higher than the US which is barely above Panama in Paris MOU and lower than Panama in Tokyo MOU.

 

[KPEngineer]

I will say that the worst vessel I ever boarded was Cypriot flagged. A real death trap. It was dropped from ABS during (and because of) my attendance. The Polish Class society accepted it and it sailed with little delay. But, as I stated, back in the 90s, I didn't survey too many new US flag vessels, but a lot FOC ones.

What scares me the most are the non-IACS societies acting as Recognized Organization for third world FOCs.

 

[deepdraft1]

Paris MOU
Tokyo MOU

The Paris MOU is listed Good to Bad while The Tokyo MOU is listed from Bad to Good.

Marshall Islands, Bahamas, Liberia, Malta, and AnB all rate higher than the US which is barely above Panama in Paris MOU and lower than Panama in Tokyo MOU.

Thanks!

 

[Persistence]

the value of the education is literally priceless. I remember when I was applying, I thought it was too good to be true. Free education basically and 6 figure pay right after graduation. I really didn’t believe it. And honestly there’s probably people on this forum that still doubt it. Here is a picture of my paycheck. The year to date is the bottom number it is only one month out of the year thus far. so all of you can truly understand how valuable the education is. Keep in mind this is just third mate pay with MSC.

 

[cmakin]

What scares me the most are the non-IACS societies acting as Recognized Organization for third world FOCs.

And then Underwriters. . . .

 

[KPEngineer]

And then Underwriters. . . .

Interesting. I am not familiar with the role the underwriters play in this context.