Venting about parents on FB

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jebdad said:
Did/do you have any children that go to a civilian school. Did you drop them off at the gate? Not go to their dorm room? Not tour the campus before or while attending? Go to the bookstore to buy a souvenir supporting your child's school choice? I am not sure what is wrong with that. I spent 18 years living with my child. Seems reasonable that I can get acquainted with where they are moving to. Why would it be best for everyone if I am not allowed to do that?

I have to agree with others. The tone of this thread wanders in a strange way at times - feels like a whole lotta condescension. The whole idea that there is this massive group of helo parents running around WP and on social media..... I am sure there are some but they are a distinct minority.
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This is what I've been trying to point out in my post on this thread. That there are different degrees on what an individual would consider another to be a helo parent and that grey area is a lot bigger than what most think.

VelveteenR expressed an opinion nothing more nothing less. You gave a valid reasoning why it's no different. I just want to point out we are not talking about a civilian school and there should be differences. I agree with you that going around the school isn't one that should be different especially our SAs with their rich history and incredible sites.

Unless I missed something no one said there is a massive group of helo parents running around WP and on social media. The only post that comes close to that is where I posted where a group that is very close to the AFA sent out a remark asking parents to "chill out." Showing that this is a growing concern of the AFA and the service the AOG provides. I agree with you that they are a very distinct minority but one with a very loud voice and if left unchecked could end up shutting down a service that the AOG provides. Now we can discuss if that service should be around would be a good discussion.

Once again I am the OP. I was the only one that has complained about any parents so I take full responsibility for that. Others which have posted on the varying post have given examples from their personal experiences of this topic. I read them as that as stories they weren't naming parents or calling them out. Just what it takes to deal with them.

I do agree that there was one post where which I chose to ignore which had very condescending remarks in it. And I only mention it now because of the road this thread is taking.

Last but not least Moderators as the OP I'm asking you shut down this thread. If people feel they are being called out and it's turning condescending I want it shut down please. Thanks for all the replies I know this thread has helped me.
 
Ah yes, people read things they don't want to... Time to shut it down.... The concept is at the root or helicopter parenting.
 
OK, I have been reading this thread and frankly, some of it just shocks me!

My kids went in 2008 to USAFA with no cell phone, no phone card either. We talked to them on the sponsor family's home line (our dime) on DDO and not again until PW.

Parents are now attending their college-graduate adult-childrens' job interviews?

After they got THEIR OWN CELL PHONES, we heard from them Sunday. Any other time, like PIMA, we said, "Hello dear son. WHAT'S WRONG?" We didn't know the details of their lives, not because we didn't want to, but because they were adults now.

We still hear from them every Sunday (when they are not TDY to someplace special), and it's just a great time, but we don't know what shirt they bought at the mall, or whether they subscribe to a newspaper, or even what color they've painted their kitchens.
 
So which came first, the technology or the helicopter parenting? Or did technology just make it easier to become a helicopter parent? Did it just make more people aware there was such a thing as helicoptering parents?

Technology is moving so fast now. Back in the day when we had to cart a bucket of change on a Sunday to call home, there was a built in "buffer", not because our parents didn't care, but because the affordable mass communication/technological means were not available.

With the growth of technology, there is an impact on society. Some of it is obvious and others are more subtle.

A whole new social media frontier has been created which seems to be endless. Everyone seems to be creating their own set of rules when defining interactions in this medium. Social media is moving faster than society at this point, and to some extent I think social media is starting to define/influence society (interactions, norms, etc.) instead of the other way around.

Back in the 1980's, touching base once a week was considered "within the norm" of a loving supportive family. Why? Because of the cost and the long line for the payphone.

Now it is 2015 with the advent of affordable cell phone plans and free email addresses etc. etc. etc.. What is the "norm" for a loving supportive family now? With the "technology/affordability" restraint removed, the family can now define the "norm".

Technology is both a blessing and a curse.
 
The problem with the label of Helocopter Parent is that there is no definition for it. So one person's helo parent definition is another parent's definition of just being a good parent.
Everyone's favorite example of Helo Parent is Douglas MacArthur's mother. What we will never know is if her actions (and I think we can all agree that they were pretty egregious) helped to make him a fine general.
 
I think maybe it would be better not to label people. It's really up to the young men and women to decide if a parent is too helo or not. We're talking about how they need to become independent. Well, step 1 ... if a parent is too involved - tell 'em!

The first time that my DD said, "Mom stop. I've got this handled", I smiled and realized that she really does. :)
 
I have been stalking this most interesting thread... Here are my thoughts, just agree to disagree if you do. I see nothing wrong with walking around USAFA during parent's weekend to see the dorms and the military school my child is in. I have never been in one and we are not a military family so for me it is very educational, and in fact I love walking around USAFA during PW. It is the ONE time every year and the closest us parents will ever get to see what the cadets do, where they live and what they eat and I look forward to that opportunity. I support the bookstore and the visitor center by spending way too much but I save up for that all year. Maybe some parents want to be less active with their adult children lives and some parents want to be more. That's their choice, not anyone else's. Go drop your kid off at the gate, say goodbye and walk away, don't talk to them everyday, don't care to hear what they had for lunch, call and just say hi once every 2 months - that's your choice. But please don't force (maybe too strong of a word) the other parents to all be like that. Some parents want to hear what was at Mitch's today. what their kid did in Aero class, who is dating who and what shirt they bought - that's their choice. Does that make them a helo parent? Does that make you a better parent than them? As was mentioned before, one's helo parent is another's loving and concerned parent.

As Momba said, technology and social media has grown exponentially by leaps and bounds. In 2000, a cell phone call was i think $1.99/ minute and if you were roaming you would be paying more. Phone calls were brief, you did not talk about anything and everything. Now it's all unlimited mobile to mobile calls and texts. Skype, Viber, Oovoo, Instant Messenger have opened up instant and limitless opportunities to communicate. I'm sure that if parents had this technology in 70s, 80s, 90s they would be doing the same exact thing parents are doing now. It's all about the "Back then when it was hard..." mentality. I think we need to be open to change and progress and accept the fact that what was the norm in 1975 in no longer the norm in 2015. We can't live in the past (and make other people live in the past as well.) We all have to learn from the past that's why the SAF has been successful with all the input from former and present parents, AD, retired etc giving their words of wisdom. But sometimes I feel that we want everybody else to get stuck in that past. Social media is here to stay and more and more baby boomer parents are heavily invested in their kids. This will not end with facebook posts or calls to AOG, I think it will get a lot more involved; and us "old people" will just wring our hands and shake our heads and say back then when...

Change can be good or bad but it always happens and we all have to learn to adapt to it. Now imagine this - ringside seats at Jack's Valley during BCT...hmmm.
 
I've been thinking about this whole Parent Weekend thing & how some see it as a good thing (no different than touring a civilian college) and others see it as a bad thing (it's a military training facility) and encourages helo parenting.

I see it differently. What better way to showcase the academies than allowing parents/friends/etc to visit and see what it's like? Why do this?
  • Generate interest in applying (siblings, cousins, friends, etc.)
  • The academies are tax-payer funded. A little advertisement, public relations, etc. is always a good thing. Pictures and stories of the visit all contribute to educating the public and generating support for the Academies.
  • Give the cadets the opportunity show off they're choice of career. As officers, they have to learn how to interact with the public. This is just another training opportunity.
  • Give people with little experience with the military (only see what Hollywood decides to portray) an opportunity to see what its really like... sort of.
Those are just a few of my thoughts. I just thought I'd add another perspective. :cool:
 
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Parent's Weekend and Plebe Parent Weekend are awesome. They are the appropriate occasions for inside looks.

As far as contact and social media, we talk to/text our cadet often. I read Yik Yak - it's hilarious and "informative" (if you are good at filtering) about what's going on.

My beef was with the parents on R-day, and the rest of Beast barracks, purposefully trying to get as close as possible for pictures of their cadet in training. Or, for example, the parents that whine to the supe about it being too dangerous for their cadet to travel in uniform.
 
Seriously shut it down, shut it down now. I am incredibly sorry I even ever posted this. So much for the 3 or 4 post where I said I WAS FREAKING WRONG for thinking the way I did and even changed the way I thought about the situation. Sorry for trying to have an open discussion where me and other can get different viewpoints so we can LEARN from.

What I can't wrap my poor little mind around is where someone can within the same post say that we shouldn't make comment or we come off as holier than thou but continue to tell us how they do it. Yeah pot definitely meet the kettle. Where no one called any parent a name or made fun of but we get statements like this:

MDDADD said:
I don't think I have seen so many stupid statement in one place as this thread in a long time.
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MDDADD said:
What a bunch of hypocrites. Old grumpy hypocrites that should spend some time looking in a mirror and working on their own glass house.
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Yup you're right about the looking in the mirror and working on their own glass houses.

We all agree that there are some situations where it is appropriate to step in while other it falls into a grey area.

For all those that gave constructive views on this I thank you it has helped me a ton and how my view on this wasn't right and I needed to adjust it.

I'm seriously done posting here.
 
MDDADD said:
They market themselves as a top notch educational experience compared to civilian colleges. They want Mom and Dad to be comfortable with the decision because they know in most cases Mom and Dad have the influence to have the kid not come. So they paint a picture (for parents and kids). Decide for yourself how real that picture is
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This!

This has been my whole thing for about the past decade. SAs were universally known as schools for soldiers. Now they sell the uninitiated (both candidates and parents) on it as a superior educational experience that happens to require uniforms. And they spend a little time in the woods. Occasionally there is a slappingly good parade! And the football games……oh, the football games!
 
This discussion has moved on quite a bit, but I’d like to apologize if my previous post sounded condescending. I didn’t mean it to. My comment was coming from the perspective that (as Sledge posted later) the SAs are NOT civilian schools; they are military training academies and are not even close to a regular college experience. Our kids are not living in dorms; they are living in barracks. It is not a campus; it is a garrison. There are soldiers at the gates. Our kids are learning to kill with precision. They have already been gassed. None of these lessons is in the course books of any other college my kid was accepted to. The thought of buying souvenirs while my child was being shaved and suited up for combat did not enter my head. (My head, not anyone else’s.) What bothered me at R-Day was seeing parents having one experience while their children were having a very different one. There is a disconnect between what our sons and daughters are there to learn and what some parents want for themselves from this experience, and I think the academies are much to blame for this as they struggle to send the right message. I think that right message is that this is “NOT COLLEGE” as that Navy tee-shirt so clearly expresses. I have internalized that, and it affects my outlook on my son’s choice and, therefore, my comments and behavior.

DH and I went to our first, and probably last, local West Point Parents Club meeting a couple of weeks ago. We met some lovely people, but they were definitely pretending that USMA is just like good ol’ <civiliancollegehere>. There were a lot of congratulations for our kids getting into such an elite school, discussions of curriculum and career choices, the football games, parents weekends, and fund raising efforts for boodle boxes and the annual black-tie Christmas ball where parents can show off their cadets in full dress uniform--as though that uniform were just some kind of tux. All of these folks were well-meaning, but they talked about the academy as a college experience leading eventually to comfortable civilian lives. Every one of the experienced parents I talked to made some mention of how desirable my son will be to the business world after his commitment. Our son is not concerned about his civilian marketability. He wants to learn military strategy, understand the rules of engagement, handle all manner of weapons with competence, lead men in battle, and rise to a position of authority and influence in the army where he may have some input into how America participates in conflicts, sets military example, and uses our technology, weapons and soldiers efficiently and more safely. Along the way, he will see combat, and he thinks deeply about what it means to kill another human directly or indirectly and what that will do to his internal self and that of his soldiers. He is in the process of coming to terms with his own mortality and how to squeeze the most meaning out of an existence that may be short. He has sat up late at night discussing these things and much, much more with us as I’m sure many of your sons and daughters have too. Our son is not thinking of USMA as college; he is thinking of it as preparation for leading in a time of war. So how can I think of it any other way?

So, maybe I should have framed my comment about leaving them at the gates more in a metaphorical sense, dividing soldier from civilian. Our children have serious business to attend to on their side of the gate. We are on other side of that divide. Go ahead, buy the swag, purchase the football tickets, send the care packages, miss the heck out of your cadet and savor every contact, but never forget—this is NOT college.
 
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MDDADD said:
For sure its none of my business how a kid/parent relationship works or said parent's decisions/actions.
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This is correct.

I ran a homeschool group K-6 and I regularly published rules:
Rule #1: Thou shalt not judge another person's parenting style.
That kept the nastiness somewhat at bay.

MDDADD said:
If so-called helo parenting is a problem and to whatever extent, then perhaps the SAs ought to look in a mirror. They maybe created what they have by their need to do outreach, recruiting, and marketing.
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Honestly don't think this is unique to the SAs. All universities market, do outreach, recruit, etc.
I saw helo parenting while homeschooling, in my kids' high school, at the Taekwondo school, etc. This style of parenting isn't something that SAs can create. It is solely dependent upon a parent's personality and experiences. For instance, a parent with an accident prone child may tend toward helo parenting more than a Teflon coated kid.

MDDADD said:
They market themselves as a top notch educational experience compared to civilian colleges.
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They should! They do provide a top notch education experience compare to MOST civilian colleges.

MDDADD said:
They want Mom and Dad to be comfortable with the decision because they know in most cases Mom and Dad have the influence to have the kid not come. So they paint a picture (for parents and kids). Decide for yourself how real that picture is but in so doing ask why everyone other than the SA calls it Summer Scaminar.
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DD went to Navy & AF SS. She told us a mid called it Summer Scaminar, so it's no secret. She also said that AF's SS was tougher & meaner (still nothing compared to BCT.) She never once thought it was anything but a small taste of Academy life.

She also spent a lot of time on youtube looking up what its really like. There's no reason these tech-savvy kids can't do this. I never felt that any of it was hidden from us. In fact, the AOG sells a video: A Year in the Blue, which I highly recommend. It does a good job detailing what to expect. (No, I do not work for the AOG!)

MDDADD said:
I can tell you that we are surprised as sponsor parents how often we have the kid's parents reaching out to us confused by what they thought it was and what it turned out to be - and there are two sides to every story - but one thing that is common is that they are seeking information from an organization that can be extremely opaque.
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They're confused about their kid joining the military? Ok, that just confuses me! LOL!
Anyway, that's why they get 2 years to decide if its right for them. If its not what you wanted, leave.

MDDADD said:
Somebody else posted wondering who is watcing their kid after day-surgery (I gather in relation to the indecent at USAF).
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I guess I don't understand what "indecent at USAF" means.

My daughter just went through surgery at USAFA. I asked if she wanted me to fly out. She said, "That's ok Mom. My roommate is driving me to the hospital & back, and I have a couple of friends who are spending the night with me." Right after the surgery, the surgeon CALLED ME personally and gave me an update & answered any questions I had. Then he told me about the pain meds he prescribed and what to expect. He sent that information to her AOC and AMT as well. Her AOC and AMT both stopped by after the surgery and a few times during the following week to check up on her. Her profs all made allowances for and were caring and accommodating.

MDDADD said:
My wife and I sat at dinner with a midshipman's Mom who balled her eyes out over how her kid had been (un)treated after a day surgery. Having witnessed what happened (or rather didn't happen) I was actually surprised at her restraint. So, no I don't think some concern and prying eyes on the part of parents (or others) is always bad.
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I'm sorry your friend had such a bad experience. I did not experience the same trauma and feel that USAFA did an excellent job taking care of her. Her "wingmen" did most of the watching out for her, which is exactly what I would expect.

Honestly, I think you can find anecdotal evidence at any university to fit a narrative.

MDDADD said:
But we are also not blind to the fact things are not all lilly white because its an SA or the military. That the marketing is marketing and not reality. Past, present, and future, there is a dark side too. The net result is many shades of grey. How any family or kid deals with that is their business not mine and I am not going to judge them for it. Yea, I thought the situation with the plebes grabbing their gear and being hustled up the stairs while the detailers yelled... in front of a hoard of parents snapping photos and taking video was very much a zoo. Not our cup of tea and we walked away quickly when we stumbled upon it. But USNA clearly wanted and created that very event. It was almost imposible to not stumble upon it. They dropped the gear and the plebe 20 feet from the entrance to the Midshipman store where they knew almost every parent would go. They took pictures of it and post pictures on their very own facebook page. Their own facebook page. They invite the media to come... who BTW then hound the local parents - and kids - as we know from personal exprience. Its so much fun trying to duck and hide from reporters who were given your contact info while saying goodbye to your kid... heck they even stage the parent weekend reunion photos. Gotta love that we have reporters contacting us at home (wonder where they got our info) to arrange the PPW reunion. Thanks for that; we are going to pass. But wait, bedbugs, no food, a Supe that can't follow security protocol at the gate, Fat Albert, day surgery, kids to travel in uniform (there have been attacks AFAIK).... then its oh no go away we don't want to hear from these helo parents?
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Must be much different at USNA. I don't remember ever seeing reporters at USAFA I-day, nor having heard anything remotely like what you're describing. We USAFA parents don't see the cadre yelling at the basics as they get on the bus ... the yelling starts after the bus turns the corner and the parents can't see. :) There are plenty of youtube videos showing what happens on the bus. Some kids even decide not to get off the bus. That's ok.

USAFA has Webguy, who posts pictures of snapshots in time -- which I believe is what started this thread. I personally see nothing wrong with seeing these pictures. In fact, I collected several pictures of my daughter & created a BCT picture book as a gift for Christmas. She said it was better than the yearbook!

I guess all our experiences are truly personal and each will react according to their nature. One person's helo parent is another's concerned parent (see Rule #1 above).

I am truly sorry for those who have bad experiences. As my husband likes to remind me: Our DD is now in the military. Of course its tough. Better to train hard now and learn how to survive under all circumstances because you never know when you might need it!
 
Oh, I just realized what "indecent at USAF" means. "Incident at USAFA" -- right?

If you read the news articles, the "incident" did not happen because of the wisdom teeth surgery.
 
USAFA83GradWife said:
I guess I don't understand what "indecent at USAF" means.

My daughter just went through surgery at USAFA. I asked if she wanted me to fly out. She said, "That's ok Mom. My roommate is driving me to the hospital & back, and I have a couple of friends who are spending the night with me." Right after the surgery, the surgeon CALLED ME personally and gave me an update & answered any questions I had. Then he told me about the pain meds he prescribed and what to expect. He sent that information to her AOC and AMT as well. Her AOC and AMT both stopped by after the surgery and a few times during the following week to check up on her. Her profs all made allowances for and were caring and accommodating.
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I think your daughter is lucky to have such caring friends who are willing to look after her like that. But not all the kids do. Also, not all AOCs and AMTs are equal. Some can be more involved than others with their cadets.

Part of the problem is that some kids do not authorize their doctors to speak with the parents. So the parents can be left in the dark. Other times, you may not get a great communicator for a doctor, and this can cause far more concerns and worries. And other times, things go south because something wasn't expected or monitored correctly. Then there are times that kids think they can handle more than they actually can. Also, an inexperienced cadet may not recognize the signs of a medical complication until that complication has become a serious issue.

When things go "as usual," then it appears everything works fine. But its when things go pear shaped that the flaws in the system become obvious.

As to the suicide this past spring at the USAFA, if the kid was not under the influence of the pain medication, would this have happened? Suicide is a very personal, tragic and controversial subject. If someone was checking on him every hour after surgery, would this have happened? Who knows, but it might have been averted. Why wasn't someone directed (say at the head quarters desk) to check on a returning patient from surgery every hour, especially if there are classes that day and there is really no one around? I would think that would be part of the command structure in each squadron.

Though we usually agree on most things, this time I have to disagree. I do think there are reasons for concern.
 
MDDADD said: ↑
They want Mom and Dad to be comfortable with the decision because they know in most cases Mom and Dad have the influence to have the kid not come.

If Mom and Dad really do have "the influence" maybe the kid shouldn't be there to begin with. As Sledge says "it's a military training academy" ...the operative word being " military, also called the armed forces, authorized to use deadly force, and weapons, to support the interests of the state and some or all of its citizens ".
 
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