West Point Cadets involved with Drugs on Spring Break

ajp15433 said:
NYT reporting that five were cadets.


Thousands of potential appointees would willingly give their lives for service to this country and the honor of attending a SA. As a hopeful candidate, this profoundly disappoints me, and even makes me question how a process that puts so many people through such an involved application process, can result in failures of this magnitude. The 2020 math cheating scandal I was willing to brush off as just some relatively harmless stupidity. This kind of news cuts to my core.

I hope everyone recovers but this makes me question this process and whether USMA is for me.
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EVERYONE falls off their pedestal at some point in their lives. Hits a brick wall. EVERYONE. Sometimes is a short distance, happens privately, no one knows and the ramifications are relatively painless. Sometimes, it’s a story like this. But everyone fails. Because we are human. Make dumb decisions. Have free Will.

But thinking everyone who attends a SA is infallibile, perfect, unable to make a mistake is wrong. If you think you are perfect, your fall off your own pedestal will be more painful when it happens. BC it will. This isn’t unique to a SA. It’s all part of growing up. Adulting. Your own decision making will be challenged wherever you go.

I would suggest talking this out with your school counselor. They have seen their fair share of stories of good people, making bad choices. Alcohol is a BIG contributor bc it inhibits your decision making abilities in the moment. Setting yourself up for the best outcome, before the situation presents itself, is key (not speaking to the specifics of this situation, but rather in general). Maybe that means having a buddy crew. Maybe it means foregoing an event. Idk. But challenging social decisions will be something you deal with no matter where you attend.
 
ajp15433 said:
I hope everyone recovers but this makes me question this process and whether USMA is for me.
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At the risk of piling on @ajp15433: Beware the “best and brightest” mythology. Receiving the BFE — and even the vaunted LOA — neither ratifies nor confers some level of impeccable character that will always do right and never do wrong. If only!

These cadets in question may not be (probably are not) officer material. But let’s not conflate “willingness to die for our country” with outstanding character and flawless decisions.

You’re wise to rethink your decision to attend an SA. Every accepted candidate, every single year, should do so amid the rush and adrenaline and celebration of getting a BFE. Make sure you’re joining “your tribe” — as best you can tell. And if it’s impeccable moral rectitude you want in a college, you’ll be looking for a very, very long time.
 
ajp15433 said:
NYT reporting that five were cadets.


Thousands of potential appointees would willingly give their lives for service to this country and the honor of attending a SA. As a hopeful candidate, this profoundly disappoints me, and even makes me question how a process that puts so many people through such an involved application process, can result in failures of this magnitude. The 2020 math cheating scandal I was willing to brush off as just some relatively harmless stupidity. This kind of news cuts to my core.

I hope everyone recovers but this makes me question this process and whether USMA is for me.
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I commend you for your high ideals - hopefully you will always be That Guy who inspires others around you to be the their best selves and do the right thing.

And that is the point - pivot your mindset.

Instead of asking if USMA is for me, why not think: This, more then ever, is why USMA needs me.
 
moho said:
Ok buddy. I am sure USMA senior staff are shaking at the core knowing you feel this way. What's the weather like up there on that high horse? :biglaugh:
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Putting yourself in a position where something like this could happen is wrong. Period. It does not matter if this is in connection with a SA or not. You can impugn me in any way you want, within whatever is considered legally permitted. But that's not going to change my opinion on this topic. I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. That's a lot of what we fight for. That's what many have died for. And that's what the people of Ukraine are fundamentally dying for as well. I'm not gong to compromise what I believe in just people some folks think I'm being overly preachy. Go ahead and continue to believe what you want in this regard. But if you think these cadets are right in any material respect, then you are simply wrong.

I'm not 45 or 55 with years of life experience. I'm 18. Behavior that generates situations like this are almost never simply picked up in college. This means that these cadets all lied on their applications. Are these the only ones that lied? Common sense says that that probably impossible. I'm not saying that we should be taking a polygraph to earn admission into a SA, but with all that we need to do, we might as well do that - and maybe that will help generate the kind of culture that this country needs and deserves.

So you might dismiss me. But frankly, I simply don't care. If you do, that just tells me that your opinion is not one that I give two licks about.
 
ajp15433 said:
NYT reporting that five were cadets.


Thousands of potential appointees would willingly give their lives for service to this country and the honor of attending a SA. As a hopeful candidate, this profoundly disappoints me, and even makes me question how a process that puts so many people through such an involved application process, can result in failures of this magnitude. The 2020 math cheating scandal I was willing to brush off as just some relatively harmless stupidity. This kind of news cuts to my core.

I hope everyone recovers but this makes me question this process and whether USMA is for me.
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When my DD attended she saw things other cadets do that I could never repeat on this forum. From her point of view, when they were granted leave many went a little wild to say the least. These are young people trying to experience a little life maybe not in a good way but none the less this happens at every school, SA or not. The majority graduated and are now upstanding army officers I would depend my life on.
 
ajp15433 said:
Putting yourself in a position where something like this could happen is wrong. Period. It does not matter if this is in connection with a SA or not. You can impugn me in any way you want, within whatever is considered legally permitted. But that's not going to change my opinion on this topic. I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. That's a lot of what we fight for. That's what many have died for. And that's what the people of Ukraine are fundamentally dying for as well. I'm not gong to compromise what I believe in just people some folks think I'm being overly preachy. Go ahead and continue to believe what you want in this regard. But if you think these cadets are right in any material respect, then you are simply wrong.

I'm not 45 or 55 with years of life experience. I'm 18. Behavior that generates situations like this are almost never simply picked up in college. This means that these cadets all lied on their applications. Are these the only ones that lied? Common sense says that that probably impossible. I'm not saying that we should be taking a polygraph to earn admission into a SA, but with all that we need to do, we might as well do that - and maybe that will help generate the kind of culture that this country needs and deserves.

So you might dismiss me. But frankly, I simply don't care. If you do, that just tells me that your opinion is not one that I give two licks about.
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I think comparing yourself, in any way, to how the people of Ukraine are struggling right now is absurd.
 
ajp15433 said:
Putting yourself in a position where something like this could happen is wrong. Period. It does not matter if this is in connection with a SA or not. You can impugn me in any way you want, within whatever is considered legally permitted. But that's not going to change my opinion on this topic. I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. That's a lot of what we fight for. That's what many have died for. And that's what the people of Ukraine are fundamentally dying for as well. I'm not gong to compromise what I believe in just people some folks think I'm being overly preachy. Go ahead and continue to believe what you want in this regard. But if you think these cadets are right in any material respect, then you are simply wrong.

I'm not 45 or 55 with years of life experience. I'm 18. Behavior that generates situations like this are almost never simply picked up in college. This means that these cadets all lied on their applications. Are these the only ones that lied? Common sense says that that probably impossible. I'm not saying that we should be taking a polygraph to earn admission into a SA, but with all that we need to do, we might as well do that - and maybe that will help generate the kind of culture that this country needs and deserves.

So you might dismiss me. But frankly, I simply don't care. If you do, that just tells me that your opinion is not one that I give two licks about.
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Right now, none of us know the full story. If these Cadets were doing drugs, they should be tossed immediately. I would say that about any service member. Zero tolerance is clearly stated from day 1 and well known by every military member. If it was others and Cadets jumped in to help save others… that is great. What they knew of the drugs, those they were hanging out with, etc… that is another discussion and should result in a lot of questions and possible dismissal. None of us were there or know what transpired to lead to that point. To assume they all lied on their applications is a huge leap. I hope everyone is okay and as they sort through what occurred everyone is held accountable based upon facts.
 
I had the pleasure and honor of meeting retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal (and the delightful Mrs. McChrystal) at a local event two weeks ago. He was gracious and engaging — so much so that, amid a room of some 80 guests, I managed to have a 15-minute conversation with him.

I mentioned my kids (one a USNA firstie, the other an ARTOC scholarship freshman) and asked what his best piece of advice for them would be. He said simply: “Be the kind of leader that you want to be led by.”

I later thought of the best leaders I’ve worked with in the corporate and academic world — quite a few of them being former military officers. And these were the commonalities: humble, empathetic, open to others’ opinions, the recognition that they were no better than those they led, and the acceptance that feedback is a gift that’s not to be squandered.

I appreciate that I could tie 55 years of life experience to the simple words of a four-star general whom former Defense Secretary Robert Gates called “the finest soldier of his generation.”
 
ajp15433 said:
NYT reporting that five were cadets.


Thousands of potential appointees would willingly give their lives for service to this country and the honor of attending a SA. As a hopeful candidate, this profoundly disappoints me, and even makes me question how a process that puts so many people through such an involved application process, can result in failures of this magnitude. The 2020 math cheating scandal I was willing to brush off as just some relatively harmless stupidity. This kind of news cuts to my core.

I hope everyone recovers but this makes me question this process and whether USMA is for me.
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Don't let the actions of a few dictate your decision. As the mom of an OG I can't tell you there are many..many fine cadets, most in fact.
Having said that...I'm traveling and glad I am not sporting my WP sweatshirt today.
 
ajp15433 said:
Putting yourself in a position where something like this could happen is wrong. Period. It does not matter if this is in connection with a SA or not. You can impugn me in any way you want, within whatever is considered legally permitted. But that's not going to change my opinion on this topic. I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. That's a lot of what we fight for. That's what many have died for. And that's what the people of Ukraine are fundamentally dying for as well. I'm not gong to compromise what I believe in just people some folks think I'm being overly preachy. Go ahead and continue to believe what you want in this regard. But if you think these cadets are right in any material respect, then you are simply wrong.

I'm not 45 or 55 with years of life experience. I'm 18. Behavior that generates situations like this are almost never simply picked up in college. This means that these cadets all lied on their applications. Are these the only ones that lied? Common sense says that that probably impossible. I'm not saying that we should be taking a polygraph to earn admission into a SA, but with all that we need to do, we might as well do that - and maybe that will help generate the kind of culture that this country needs and deserves.

So you might dismiss me. But frankly, I simply don't care. If you do, that just tells me that your opinion is not one that I give two licks about.
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Well said.
 
The significant lesson is that nearly all will at some point be in the awkward position of being pressured to participate in something that would never be considered in isolation. Just look at any picture of spring break kids everywhere. Foolish and reckless behavior that would embarrass both the participants and their families. Peer pressure is, at times, one of the biggest challenges any will face. Interestingly, it works both ways. If just one of the participants had stood firm and risked being ostracized by stating, "no way, not me!" "You guys are nuts to risk it all". This would have probably not have happened. Who knows?
It could be drinking and driving instead of Uber; showing up for a flight brief hungover; Group-think is sometimes dangerous and needs to be recognized.
The same forces that make camaraderie and fraternity so awesome in SA settings, or being part of a sports team, can be the same forces that urge those same kids into risky behavior. Something to consider and maybe talk to your DA/DS about, because its real.
 
ajp15433 said:
Putting yourself in a position where something like this could happen is wrong. Period. It does not matter if this is in connection with a SA or not. You can impugn me in any way you want, within whatever is considered legally permitted. But that's not going to change my opinion on this topic. I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. That's a lot of what we fight for. That's what many have died for. And that's what the people of Ukraine are fundamentally dying for as well. I'm not gong to compromise what I believe in just people some folks think I'm being overly preachy. Go ahead and continue to believe what you want in this regard. But if you think these cadets are right in any material respect, then you are simply wrong.

I'm not 45 or 55 with years of life experience. I'm 18. Behavior that generates situations like this are almost never simply picked up in college. This means that these cadets all lied on their applications. Are these the only ones that lied? Common sense says that that probably impossible. I'm not saying that we should be taking a polygraph to earn admission into a SA, but with all that we need to do, we might as well do that - and maybe that will help generate the kind of culture that this country needs and deserves.

So you might dismiss me. But frankly, I simply don't care. If you do, that just tells me that your opinion is not one that I give two licks about.
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I would only suggest that you will learn and experience more as you "age", whether that is this year or twenty years hence. I have had one or two situations that I can proudly say I stepped up and prevented the possibility of something horrible happening. I have also had great friends intervene to protect me from foolishness, more times than I would like to admit. And there have been many times in both my civilian and military careers when I wish either would have occurred and didn't. It WILL happen to you. How you handle it will be unknown until that day.
 
ajp15433 said:
Putting yourself in a position where something like this could happen is wrong. Period. It does not matter if this is in connection with a SA or not. You can impugn me in any way you want, within whatever is considered legally permitted. But that's not going to change my opinion on this topic. I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. That's a lot of what we fight for. That's what many have died for. And that's what the people of Ukraine are fundamentally dying for as well. I'm not gong to compromise what I believe in just people some folks think I'm being overly preachy. Go ahead and continue to believe what you want in this regard. But if you think these cadets are right in any material respect, then you are simply wrong.

I'm not 45 or 55 with years of life experience. I'm 18. Behavior that generates situations like this are almost never simply picked up in college. This means that these cadets all lied on their applications. Are these the only ones that lied? Common sense says that that probably impossible. I'm not saying that we should be taking a polygraph to earn admission into a SA, but with all that we need to do, we might as well do that - and maybe that will help generate the kind of culture that this country needs and deserves.

So you might dismiss me. But frankly, I simply don't care. If you do, that just tells me that your opinion is not one that I give two licks about.
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1. Who is "we" that you keep referencing as if you are in any way a member of the men and women who are actively serving this country?

2. Nobody said they were right. Abuse of illegal/legal drugs is unacceptable for any service-member, cadets and midshipmen included. You are making a lot of flash judgment calls based off of your own sense of moral superiority. The point being made here is to wait until all facts are discovered before making a decision. This is what good officers do - and as you pointed out, you're an 18 year old kid with zero life experience, so I suggest you take a lesson from some more experienced officers, veterans and people WITH life experience that are posting on this board.

3. Yes, you are only 18 years old with zero life experience, yet here you are acting as if you're a psychologist with knowledge of these individuals who are involved. Evidently you are an expert on learned behavior and how people act and respond in certain situations.

4. You are assuming that they were all drug users in the past and lied about it? That's quite a reach for someone who was not involved.
 
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ajp15433 said:
Putting yourself in a position where something like this could happen is wrong. Period. It does not matter if this is in connection with a SA or not. You can impugn me in any way you want, within whatever is considered legally permitted. But that's not going to change my opinion on this topic. I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. That's a lot of what we fight for. That's what many have died for. And that's what the people of Ukraine are fundamentally dying for as well. I'm not gong to compromise what I believe in just people some folks think I'm being overly preachy. Go ahead and continue to believe what you want in this regard. But if you think these cadets are right in any material respect, then you are simply wrong.

I'm not 45 or 55 with years of life experience. I'm 18. Behavior that generates situations like this are almost never simply picked up in college. This means that these cadets all lied on their applications. Are these the only ones that lied? Common sense says that that probably impossible. I'm not saying that we should be taking a polygraph to earn admission into a SA, but with all that we need to do, we might as well do that - and maybe that will help generate the kind of culture that this country needs and deserves.

So you might dismiss me. But frankly, I simply don't care. If you do, that just tells me that your opinion is not one that I give two licks about.
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I was 18 not long ago so I remember well what it’s like to be passionate about your ideals. I swallowed a healthy slice of humble pie when I got to Annapolis and realized I was no more smart or honorable than the other men and women around me, and that I still had so much to learn. Yes, older folks are still trying to figure stuff out and are certainly not infallible, but the more experience you have the more you can appreciate nuance. Nobody here is defending the cadets, but I think it is seriously incorrect to suggest that some institutional flaws are allowing many people deficient in integrity into SAs, or that people who commit serious misconduct like this were set on that path during their adolescence. The mind of an 18 year old entering an academy is still developing rapidly, and in some ways you aren’t the same person at 21/22 (hopefully for the better). I’ve seen people get tempted to do the wrong thing, whether that’s cheating, drugs, lying, etc. Most people resist but unfortunately that’s not always the case. And in a lot of those cases it was their first time screwing up that badly in life. It has happened that people with squeaky clean records who are top performers have committed a DWI, which is one of the worst decisions you can make in life. People are flawed. And in a military of over a million people, you can bet we won’t always be able to catch those who shouldn't be there at first. It’s easy to say that other people simply lack integrity. Talk is cheap. Do you have the fortitude to do the right thing when you, or even harder, your peer is tempted to do something irresponsible—That’s what I would be thinking about if I was getting ready to enter an Academy. As far as greater patterns in misconduct are concerned, I leave that to the O-6s. But if you are looking for the institution where everybody always makes the morally upstanding choice 100% of the time, you won’t find that at an Academy, or anwhere else for that matter.
 
Kierkegaard said:
I was 18 not long ago so I remember well what it’s like to be passionate about your ideals. I swallowed a healthy slice of humble pie when I got to Annapolis and realized I was no more smart or honorable than the other men and women around me, and that I still had so much to learn. Yes, older folks are still trying to figure stuff out and are certainly not infallible, but the more experience you have the more you can appreciate nuance. Nobody here is defending the cadets, but I think it is seriously incorrect to suggest that some institutional flaws are allowing many people deficient in integrity into SAs, or that people who commit serious misconduct like this were set on that path during their adolescence. The mind of an 18 year old entering an academy is still developing rapidly, and in some ways you aren’t the same person at 21/22 (hopefully for the better). I’ve seen people get tempted to do the wrong thing, whether that’s cheating, drugs, lying, etc. Most people resist but unfortunately that’s not always the case. And in a lot of those cases it was their first time screwing up that badly in life. It has happened that people with squeaky clean records who are top performers have committed a DWI, which is one of the worst decisions you can make in life. People are flawed. And in a military of over a million people, you can bet we won’t always be able to catch those who shouldn't be there at first. It’s easy to say that other people simply lack integrity. Talk is cheap. Do you have the fortitude to do the right thing when you, or even harder, your peer is tempted to do something irresponsible—That’s what I would be thinking about if I was getting ready to enter an Academy. As far as greater patterns in misconduct are concerned, I leave that to the O-6s. But if you are looking for the institution where everybody always makes the morally upstanding choice 100% of the time, you won’t find that at an Academy, or anwhere else for that matter.
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Thank you, @Kierkegaard for thoughtful deckplate wisdom from someone who is a few steps further down the road and “living the dream” at USNA (but happily enjoying spring break right now), but also someone who sees the reality of the population you are a part of.

I recall with great clarity many mids who broke down in front of me at USNA, shocked and surprised they had arrived in front of me for adjudication, never having put even a toe wrong in HS and arriving at USNA expecting everyone to be near-heroically shiny and bright, all the time, every day, and assuming they were just as shiny and immune to bad behavior. They were horribly surprised at how prolifically they could fail, and the immediate, secondary and tertiary consequences of bad decisions. If they were lucky, they learned huge lessons from discovering they too could stumble and fall but not have fallen so hard they got separated from USNA. They then shared their wisdom with others and looked out for others about to fall headlong - due to inexperience, hubris, lack of impulse control, susceptibility to peer pressure - into membership in the “I thought it was a good idea at the time” club. The thing that heartened me the most was watching mids come to the realization that this was the hard reality of leadership, flawed humans leading other flawed humans, but still committing to striving for the ideal, and most impressively, looking out for classmates, shipmates, their juniors, to help them stop and think things through.
 
@ajp15433 So much great advice from experience in this thread. I hope you are paying attention to those who have been there.

Here's another perspective. In 2 years, you could be leading underclassmen who sometimes make mistakes. In 4 years, you could be graduating and newly assigned a platoon of young soldiers who make mistakes or need a little guidance. My DH (USMA 96) dealt with a lot.more "personnel issues" as a platoon leader in the Army than I ever dealt with in the Air Force. A little humility, compassion, and grace go a long way.

Having sat on a court-martial for drug use, I expect USMA will swiftly deal with the infraction. There should be no tolerance for drug use. However, we should be careful not to demonize these cadets for a really dumb mistake. I just hope they learn from it.
 
A little different , but Capt MJs comments reminds me , that in sports at the highest level, it is often that the super star player who does not make the best coach.

Its those who have failed and over come adversity and then often failed again that usually make the best coaches.

I think they understand players and human nature and the fact that people can fall short in a way that the water walkers may not
 
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