White papers, Embassy Guards, is this for real?

S

Small Team Bacsi

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2020
Messages
1,573
I didn't read the comments but there have been lots of changes already and more to come in the Marine Corps. This commandant has a different view to the future and it has a lot to do with the pivot to the Western Pacific and China in particular. He's talking about retaining an older force, retaining talent, and treating people like people instead of inventory. He also wants to bring in people laterally to a pay grade equal to their skills and capabilities.

There's an article I got this from but General Berger mentions "medic" and I can't bring myself to post it. Maybe I'm reading it out of context or it might be the author's word. I personally have no issues with medics but don't want to be called one and certainly not by a career infantry officer who is also the Commandant of the Marine Corps.
 
The most recent articles I have read seems to have USMC returning to its roots of amphibious assault. While we have always been amphibious assault we have gotten away from it due to the recent past needs but like Doc said the focus does seem to be shifting to the Pacific. And …… I would guess that is the authors mix up. I can’t image The Corps without our Corpsman. No way Marines are getting in the business of medicine.
 
I'll post it. I see the spirit of the statement but... "I think the machine gunner who's also a ... medic also has to be able to talk to MQ-9 UAVs and bring in orders, and understand the satellite connection is required to do that," Berger said.

Naval Special Warfare stopped using corpsmen in 2006. They were by then sending HMs to the special operations medic and advanced course in place of Independent Duty Corpsman school at Ft. Bragg anyway. MARSOC and the rest of the Corps still need us so that's good enough for me.

www.military.com

The Corps' New Plan Aims to Treat Marines 'Like Human Beings Instead of Inventory'

According to the plan, the service must become an older, more agile and talent-driven force with more emphasis on retaining people.
www.military.com www.military.com
 
Devil Doc said:
I'll post it. I see the spirit of the statement but... "I think the machine gunner who's also a ... medic also has to be able to talk to MQ-9 UAVs and bring in orders, and understand the satellite connection is required to do that," Berger said.

Naval Special Warfare stopped using corpsmen in 2006. They were by then sending HMs to the special operations medic and advanced course in place of Independent Duty Corpsman school at Ft. Bragg anyway. MARSOC and the rest of the Corps still need us so that's good enough for me.

www.military.com

The Corps' New Plan Aims to Treat Marines 'Like Human Beings Instead of Inventory'

According to the plan, the service must become an older, more agile and talent-driven force with more emphasis on retaining people.
www.military.com www.military.com
Click to expand...
That‘s interesting 🧐 I really am struggling to wrap my head around how this will work. Especially the lateral move into a rank part. A lot to process from a short article. I almost feel as if he is throwing it out there to see what the reaction will be and then evaluate from there.

The old throw it at the wall and see what sticks.
 
Old Enlisted Marine said:
That‘s interesting 🧐 I really am struggling to wrap my head around how this will work. Especially the lateral move into a rank part. A lot to process from a short article. I almost feel as if he is throwing it out there to see what the reaction will be and then evaluate from there.

The old throw it at the wall and see what sticks.
Click to expand...
It will happen with the nerd community. They need geek skills.
 
CMC wrote, "My assumption is we will not have a technological advantage, we will not have a numerical advantage. And it will be an away game for us. We will be on the short end of all three. What we will have, what we need is the intellectual edge. That's what we have to have...."
 
Old Enlisted Marine said:
The most recent articles I have read seems to have USMC returning to its roots of amphibious assault. While we have always been amphibious assault we have gotten away from it due to the recent past needs but like Doc said the focus does seem to be shifting to the Pacific. And …… I would guess that is the authors mix up. I can’t image The Corps without our Corpsman. No way Marines are getting in the business of medicine.
Click to expand...

The last successful Marine Corps amphibious assault was at Inchon in September 1950. Over 71 years ago. And that was largely unopposed. The Marine Corps over the 70+ years has been that of a 2nd army, dedicated to land-based campaigns.

Even with a transition to training against potential adversaries like China, I can't see where amphibious assaults would be a future thing. China might have more need for this training, with their eyes set on Taiwan. Where would the Marines undertake amphib ops? Invading the Chinese mainland? Not likely.

Less glamorous but more likely would be garrison duties, i.e. defending allied countries from Chinese attack using local forces. And, of course, air-naval power. Vietnam, the Philipines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. are all increasing their defense budgets by double digits annually. India, Japan, Australia, etc. are all also taking newly-aggressive Chinese foreign policy a lot more seriously.

Turning the Marines into a light infantry force, devoid of armor & artillery, would be an error in rehearsing for war against a conventional foe like China.
 
Day-Tripper said:
...The last successful Marine Corps amphibious assault was at Inchon in September 1950. Over 71 years ago. And that was largely unopposed. The Marine Corps over the 70+ years has been that of a 2nd army, dedicated to land-based campaigns...
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. There was Operation Starlite (Vietnam) in 1965 and Operation Urgent Fury (Grenada) in 1983 to name a couple.
Those were pretty successful.
 
The United States Marine Corps will always need the guy who can take a punch in the nose and stay in the fight. He will need enough intelligence to put rounds on target, react to adversity, and master his equipment. Anything extra is a bonus.

He will need the grit to push past the pain and the discomfort. And he will need the strength to carry on when dog tired.

In CMC Berger's vision, the Marine Corps will island hop throughout the Pacific to secure land for rockets and or airfields and then use these to push to the next objective. Those are "amphibious landings" of a different color.

The USMC has moved further and further away from "light infantry". I don't see the pendulum swinging back anytime soon.

Equipment will get more complicated and we may require a "smarter Marine" but you need to combine that with the grit and toughness needed to succeed. That is a tall order. Geeks need not apply.

Note: when I was a Platoon Commander I would bet less than half my platoon had high school diplomas. By the time I resigned my commission, I wasn't aware of any Marine without a HS diploma and many had some college credit. The USMC has gotten more "intelligent" over time.

The CMC should challenge the organization on these things but refrain from making changes that makes Marines any less lethal.
 
The Marine Corps changed from amphibious to expeditionary decades ago.

We have a big training base in the Mohave 140 miles from the beach for a reason.

America will always have a Marine Corps. The MEU can land within hours and not days. Need a hasty evacuation from an embassy? USMC.
Humanitarian mission to include feeding babies. USMC. Attack vertically or horizontally? USMC. From the beach or over the horizon? No prob.

I hope the Marines can get away from the occupying army mission. There are others for that.

Different factions have been trying to dismantle the Marine Corps for a couple centuries. But, America loves her Marines and there will always be a Marine Corps.
 
IMHO it is unlikely that another large scale, all-out war with a symetric opponent like China will occur. However, we need forces like Marine Expeditionary Units to be able to defend our interests and allies' interests in local or regional conflicts around the World that are more likely to occur. There will always be a need for Fleet Marines. And, regional conflicts are really all we can afford to budget and plan for.

If the SHTF with China, and an all-out war were to commence, nothing we have now in the Defense Dept. would be adequate. We would have to re-think everything and up-scale every force and re-institute a draft. In such event, the role of the USMC would likely have to change a bit again to meet the new contingency. If we were to spend a high enough % of our GDP planning for an all-out war now, it would likely wreck our economy. So we have to use the limited resources wisely. That is what the Commandant is trying to do. No one has a crystal ball, we just do our best.
 
Last edited:
Day-Tripper said:
The last successful Marine Corps amphibious assault was at Inchon in September 1950. Over 71 years ago. And that was largely unopposed. The Marine Corps over the 70+ years has been that of a 2nd army, dedicated to land-based campaigns.

Even with a transition to training against potential adversaries like China, I can't see where amphibious assaults would be a future thing. China might have more need for this training, with their eyes set on Taiwan. Where would the Marines undertake amphib ops? Invading the Chinese mainland? Not likely.

Less glamorous but more likely would be garrison duties, i.e. defending allied countries from Chinese attack using local forces. And, of course, air-naval power. Vietnam, the Philipines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. are all increasing their defense budgets by double digits annually. India, Japan, Australia, etc. are all also taking newly-aggressive Chinese foreign policy a lot more seriously.

Turning the Marines into a light infantry force, devoid of armor & artillery, would be an error in rehearsing for war against a conventional foe like China.
Click to expand...
they have already been stripped of their armor, of course with it you aren't 'light infantry'
 
NJROTC-CC said:
If the SHTF with China, and an all-out war were to commence, nothing we have now in the Defense Dept. would be adequate. We would have to re-think everything and up-scale every force and re-institute a draft.
Click to expand...
Not sure about re-instituting a draft. I would hate to fight alongside unmotivated and otherwise poorly trained troops that have no desire to serve their country. I would only agree with a draft if our nation was under attack.

Besides, warfare has changed these days. If we get into a war with China, we will see war in domains that we have never seen before (Space, Cyber, AI, and Hypersonic Missiles). All these domains make a large military look small and turn the tides of war fast.

We need to diversify and spread our troops across the Western Pacific. Equip them with the best equipment and most advanced weaponry possible to deter a Chinese Military attack. We shouldn't have a large force focused on one area, if a Chinese missile strikes an LHD, we would lose over a thousand troops already. An LHD's air defenses (CIWS, RAM) are inadequate against a fast moving Chinese Anti ship missile. We need to spread our troops out.
 
Can you think of the insanity of instituting a draft, and then trying to train troops, while we are in an actual shooting war and the US being attacked by x or y or z country?

If a draft makes any sense at all it needs to be instituted years before we are attacked In an all out shooting war.
 
"If the SHTF with China, and an all-out war were to commence, nothing we have now in the Defense Dept. would be adequate."

IF such a scenario were to play out; a full peer-on-peer military conflict...it would escalate to nuclear. I don't see how that could be avoided.
 
The Marines have some awesome weapons, tactics, and other toys these days. I've heard about a few of them.

John Basilone would recognize today's Marine but not his Marine Corps. Wouldn't it though be a fine Marine Corps day if Gunnery Sergeant Basilone walked on deck and asked, "What in the world's this #^&$?"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top