If so, that is a part of the issue also. If there is a problem (i.e. hazing, bullying, targeting), everyone needs to do their part to fix the problem. The victims have responsbility to speak out. Leadership, cadre, and fellow cannot take actions to correct a problem, when or if they are not sure there is a problem.
Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!
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If so, that is a part of the issue also. If there is a problem (i.e. hazing, bullying, targeting), everyone needs to do their part to fix the problem. The victims have responsbility to speak out. Leadership, cadre, and fellow cannot take actions to correct a problem, when or if they are not sure there is a problem.
-Bull-
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It was in jest, of course. I just finished a course where AF JTACs were the instructors, they most certainly have done some pretty cool and "warrior" stuff in real world operations.
Freda'sMom
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I brought up the exact scenario as above, even posted that I heard it directly from the cadre who admitted their actions.
The next thing I read is ~10 posts telling me "it can't happen," followed by ~10 posts saying "it could happen," followed by ~10 posts saying "it happens but is not the norm."
I also did not specifically name which academy or SMC where this occurred.
USAFA83GradWife
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I certainly won't disagree with that, but this particular issue has been around for decades. The article I posted was written by a USMA grad talking about his girlfriend's experience at USMA back in the 80s. It also isn't exclusively an Academy issue but more societal. I also want to point out that it wasn't the cadre who were bullying but a handful of the girls' classmates. When discovered, then it was handled. As for the girls' decision to not report -- again, the problem is that they are viewed as weaker and less able than the boys by those boys. The perception was that reporting meant weakness. BTW, all those girls were accepted into the wing.
Christcorp
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Not downplaying, but I think things have changed quite a bit in the last 25-30 years. Are there still problem? Yes. But I believe the academies are more receptive, as are the cadets, in addressing problems. I also believe there are a lot more checks in place to ensure issues get reported. I've noticed over the last 10 years or so, the cadet wing as much more accepting of women and everyone at the academy. There are still a few narrow minded individuals that come to the academy that have sexist and racist beliefs, but the overwhelming majority of those get confronted quickly. They either realize that what they "Were Taught" and believed growing up is wrong; or they are forced to change due to unacceptance by the cadet wing and academy.
I will never downplay any social conflict. Whether it's at the academy or in society in general. But I've seen the growth and maturing of both. I grew up in New Jersey and remember the race riots of the 60's. I remember the ERA movement. I remember how it was and how it is today. There's been a lot of progress and improvement. But I also believe that "Situations" don't translate into an organizational or social problem. Unfortunately, our society, mainly the media, does still seem to concentrate too much on situations and make it appear that it's a social problem; rather than a situational issue. I've seen the attitudes of the people change throughout the last 50 years. I truly believe, that if we could find a way to keep the media out of it, we would be so much further along than we are today. Which is still light years ahead of where we were not too long ago.
I will never downplay any social conflict. Whether it's at the academy or in society in general. But I've seen the growth and maturing of both. I grew up in New Jersey and remember the race riots of the 60's. I remember the ERA movement. I remember how it was and how it is today. There's been a lot of progress and improvement. But I also believe that "Situations" don't translate into an organizational or social problem. Unfortunately, our society, mainly the media, does still seem to concentrate too much on situations and make it appear that it's a social problem; rather than a situational issue. I've seen the attitudes of the people change throughout the last 50 years. I truly believe, that if we could find a way to keep the media out of it, we would be so much further along than we are today. Which is still light years ahead of where we were not too long ago.
USAFA83GradWife
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Don't get me wrong. I think things are much better today than 30 years ago, too. As an engineer and only woman in my major, I have direct knowledge of what it used to be like. 
All I'm saying is that there are still pockets of this attitude as evidenced by my DD's experience. Other squadrons accepted the girls with no issues what-so-ever. Let's face it, you bring people from all over the country, even all over the world, and you will find some with a more archaic attitude. It is what it is & I personally think you'll always find some with the attitude.
I also think its a maturity thing. As I said, the attitude came from the younger boys. The cadre did address it when they saw it. Unfortunately, they didn't always see it.
All I'm saying is that there are still pockets of this attitude as evidenced by my DD's experience. Other squadrons accepted the girls with no issues what-so-ever. Let's face it, you bring people from all over the country, even all over the world, and you will find some with a more archaic attitude. It is what it is & I personally think you'll always find some with the attitude.I also think its a maturity thing. As I said, the attitude came from the younger boys. The cadre did address it when they saw it. Unfortunately, they didn't always see it.
832 as of 7/15
Kanye's Dad's Sock Puppet
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Are you kidding? Only 832 left of 1035... a ~ 20% drop rate over the summer!? Is that normal?
Christcorp
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That number seems about right. About 19.5% drop from the beginning to the end.
For the class of 2012, there were 1348 who processed in. At graduation, there were 1073. That's a loss of 20.4%.
You'll find similar numbers for most classes. 2013 had 1024 graduate, but less were brought in than 2012, and less dropped out. But the numbers are similar. 2014 had 995 graduate with 1294 starting. That's a loss of 23%.
So, keeping in ine with this thread, the class of 2019 started with 1250. In 4 years, there will be approximately 1000 that graduate. Some say it's harder to get INTO the academy than it is to stay. This is partially true. I think what happens is, the majority of those who apply and do receive an appointment, don't really know what they're getting into. So more "Drop Out" than are kicked out. Don't get me wrong, plenty are let go because of academics or behaviour. But more quit than are let go. They realize that it's simply not what they thought it was going to be, and not for them. So, it's not really a matter of is it's harder to get in than to stay in. More of a; do you still want the academy and the military once you get in, as much as you wanted it while you were applying. For many, that answer is no.
For the class of 2012, there were 1348 who processed in. At graduation, there were 1073. That's a loss of 20.4%.
You'll find similar numbers for most classes. 2013 had 1024 graduate, but less were brought in than 2012, and less dropped out. But the numbers are similar. 2014 had 995 graduate with 1294 starting. That's a loss of 23%.
So, keeping in ine with this thread, the class of 2019 started with 1250. In 4 years, there will be approximately 1000 that graduate. Some say it's harder to get INTO the academy than it is to stay. This is partially true. I think what happens is, the majority of those who apply and do receive an appointment, don't really know what they're getting into. So more "Drop Out" than are kicked out. Don't get me wrong, plenty are let go because of academics or behaviour. But more quit than are let go. They realize that it's simply not what they thought it was going to be, and not for them. So, it's not really a matter of is it's harder to get in than to stay in. More of a; do you still want the academy and the military once you get in, as much as you wanted it while you were applying. For many, that answer is no.
BlahuKahuna
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2016 hasn't lost 20% of their class over the summer, but since June 2012 when they inprocessed.
If you mean the class of 2019, the number was 1171 as of 7/31/15. That's from the parents newsletter the academy sent. I believe there were 1235 basics this year.
Kanye's Dad's Sock Puppet
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Thanks for the added clarity. So the class of 2019, entering this year, had a 5% drop rate over the summer. I'm guessing that is pretty consistent with the past.
Christcorp
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Yes, a 5% drop out of BCT isn't unreasonable. And the drop by mid-way (2 year mark), will be about 15%. And in the last 2 years, there will be another small amount, around 5 %. That last 5% isn't usually "Voluntary". It's usually because of academics. Sometimes the occasional behavioural issue.
Badge250
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25 June 1979: Enter the Class of 1983, all 1,516 of them!
1 June 1983: Exit the Class of 1983, all 956 of them.
(Typical attrition rate at the time)
Steve
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USAFA '83
Wow! 37% attrition rate was typical ? What began to slow down the attrition rate and when did it happen? Did USAFA react right away to the changing attrition rates or was it a delayed reaction because of the number of graduates they began to produce (that were too many)?
Christcorp
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Different requirements at the time. But one thing that most people don't know, is that federal law basically says that a maximum of 1000 cadets can graduate and commission per year. If there's more than that, they aren't going to usually deny a graduate from commissioning, but they have to explain to air force, DOD, and congress, what they are doing to offset that number. Usually, they allow them to bring in less the next year or so, believing that the "AVERAGE" graduation rate won't exceed 1000.
FWIW: The law also states, that the academy isn't suppose to exceed 4400 cadets "AT" the academy. Again, they arent going to throw anyone out normally, but they have to show how they will compensate. That's why one year they might bring in 1200-1300 cadets, and the next year they may only bring in 1100.
Also, prior to 2008 and the economy "Melt-Down", choosing the military and the academy as a "Job" wasn't as important. Unemployment was lower and outside jobs were more abundant. As such, the academy would offer approximately 1700 appointments, KNOWING that approximately 500 would turn them down. (Yes, believe it or not, not everyone who applies to the academy have it as their #1 choice for college). For many, it's their #2, 3, 4 or 5. If they get their #1 or such, they turn down the academy. Well, after 2008, unemployment skyrocketed. The military was a more sure thing for a job. They realized they couldn't offer 1700 appointments, because not as many would turn it down. Hence, the reason for more of a rolling appointment process whereby some appointments are given out, regroup, some more given out, regroup again, etc. until they've given out the number they want.
Sorry for the novel, but a lot of people have wondered and asked my "HOW" the academy decides how many appointments they will give out each year.
FWIW: The law also states, that the academy isn't suppose to exceed 4400 cadets "AT" the academy. Again, they arent going to throw anyone out normally, but they have to show how they will compensate. That's why one year they might bring in 1200-1300 cadets, and the next year they may only bring in 1100.
Also, prior to 2008 and the economy "Melt-Down", choosing the military and the academy as a "Job" wasn't as important. Unemployment was lower and outside jobs were more abundant. As such, the academy would offer approximately 1700 appointments, KNOWING that approximately 500 would turn them down. (Yes, believe it or not, not everyone who applies to the academy have it as their #1 choice for college). For many, it's their #2, 3, 4 or 5. If they get their #1 or such, they turn down the academy. Well, after 2008, unemployment skyrocketed. The military was a more sure thing for a job. They realized they couldn't offer 1700 appointments, because not as many would turn it down. Hence, the reason for more of a rolling appointment process whereby some appointments are given out, regroup, some more given out, regroup again, etc. until they've given out the number they want.
Sorry for the novel, but a lot of people have wondered and asked my "HOW" the academy decides how many appointments they will give out each year.
Badge250
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Great explanation CC on this topic. The 2008 economic problems and job forecast caused USAFA to offer fewer appointments and also would explain the change in attrition rates too for cadets. Did USAFA "project" this would happen in or around 2008 and change their numbers, or did they "react" after a problem of having too many cadets/graduates?
Christcorp
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Well, prior to the 2008 selection (Class of 2012), the air force academy had a pretty good idea how many would apply; how many would turn it down; and how many would accept; and how many would graduate. My son's class (Class of 2012) by coincidence still gave out the appointments pretty much immediately. My son actually RECEIVED his appointment, actual letter in hand, at the end of October. (Obviously, the only way to get an actual appointment, was if you had a NON-MOC nomination, like a presidential, which he had). Many received LOA (Letters of Assurance) then too.
The next year, class of 2013, they did similar. But also realized the rise in applicants and appointees. They brought in a little less that year, but the kids "Stuck it out" and there were 1024 graduates for that class. But in 2009-2010 the academy started changing the appointment process. By around 2012 (Class of 2016), they really started controlling the number of offers, number of appointments, etc. The air force and congress knows that the academies can't "Guarantee" a certain number of appointees will be there in 4 years. Some quite early. Many quit in the first 2 years. Most make it. In a high unemployment society, more apply and more stick it out.
Remember; there's a difference between making a "CHOICE" and having a "Lack of Options". So, the academy is always trying to balance cadets, graduation, mission requirements, active duty retention, (They may take less in if less officers are getting out after 5 years), sometimes a RIF (Reduction in Force), etc. There's a lot that goes into giving appointments to the academy. It's not simply, let take 1200 and move on. They have to look 5-9 years out and see how this impacts the real air force. Of course, military conflicts, pentagon budgets, etc. all play into it to. Remember, the academy isn't primarily a University and/or Job's program. It's there to develop military officers to do a military job. The college education and technical training after graduation, are simply tools used to make these officers the most effective and efficient leaders they can be. (Yes, there's a reason commissioned officers require a college degree). So when they are determining the appointments, they use all the info they have from history of those dropping out; all the way to how many O-4 captains are doing the "Five and Dive" and not staying in the military. This is all used to make these decisions.
The next year, class of 2013, they did similar. But also realized the rise in applicants and appointees. They brought in a little less that year, but the kids "Stuck it out" and there were 1024 graduates for that class. But in 2009-2010 the academy started changing the appointment process. By around 2012 (Class of 2016), they really started controlling the number of offers, number of appointments, etc. The air force and congress knows that the academies can't "Guarantee" a certain number of appointees will be there in 4 years. Some quite early. Many quit in the first 2 years. Most make it. In a high unemployment society, more apply and more stick it out.
Remember; there's a difference between making a "CHOICE" and having a "Lack of Options". So, the academy is always trying to balance cadets, graduation, mission requirements, active duty retention, (They may take less in if less officers are getting out after 5 years), sometimes a RIF (Reduction in Force), etc. There's a lot that goes into giving appointments to the academy. It's not simply, let take 1200 and move on. They have to look 5-9 years out and see how this impacts the real air force. Of course, military conflicts, pentagon budgets, etc. all play into it to. Remember, the academy isn't primarily a University and/or Job's program. It's there to develop military officers to do a military job. The college education and technical training after graduation, are simply tools used to make these officers the most effective and efficient leaders they can be. (Yes, there's a reason commissioned officers require a college degree). So when they are determining the appointments, they use all the info they have from history of those dropping out; all the way to how many O-4 captains are doing the "Five and Dive" and not staying in the military. This is all used to make these decisions.