AF ROTC Enrollment Allocation Results

[Jcleppe]

And those cadets who aren't on scholarship who are taking similar course loads, doing the same ROTC work as well as having part time jobs??? The same expenses exist. It's the fact that people are complaining about what is essentially free money. Scholarship cadets are being paid for doing the same things non scholarship cadets do. I was also rubbed the wrong way by the reactions when all contracted cadets in my class found out stipends were being lowered. Why are we complaining about getting less money when that's still 250-400 more dollars than a lot of other cadets are getting every month. That is why I also don't like your job analogy. At a job everyone is being paid, and if not you don't complain in front of the volunteers who wish they were on payroll!

If actual scholarship awards were being changed I could see the issue but this is stipend. I personally think it is foolish to budget for a paycheck you haven't received. I am tired of hearing scholarship cadets complain about this outside of the scholarship cadet community. You're rubbing the fact that you even get this free money in non scholarship cadets faces and you're being ungrateful. JMPO

To be honest, I'm not sure what your complaining about, or if you even read my post correctly.

My post was about Non Scholarship Cadets, that was my point, these cadets don't have the luxury of having tuition paid for. eventually all cadets whether they are scholarship or not will receive a stipend, money that these non scholarship cadets will use for expenses the scholarship cadets don't have.

You can "Not" like my job analogy if you like, the problem is you don't understand what I was saying. I was talking about students that have "Jobs", the ones that need those jobs to help pay for school, not volunteers.

Not exactly sure where I was sounding ungrateful.

And "Foolish" to complain about a paycheck you haven't received?? They are receiving a paycheck, again not really sure what your talking about. You might also want to complain to the AFA, cadets there get paid a lot more then the stipend for ROTC, and their school is completely paid for.

If I was a scholarship cadet would I be upset if the stipend was cut, sure, it was advertised at a certain rate and then cut once enrolled, would I get over it, sure. If I was a non scholarship cadet would I grumble because someone who earned a scholarship gripped a bit over the stipend being cut...again no.

And what the heck is the "Scholarship Community" Does your Det. divide you into groups, sad if they do.

 

[Adelita]

To be honest, I'm not sure what your complaining about, or if you even read my post correctly.

My post was about Non Scholarship Cadets, that was my point, these cadets don't have the luxury of having tuition paid for. eventually all cadets whether they are scholarship or not will receive a stipend, money that these non scholarship cadets will use for expenses the scholarship cadets don't have.

You can "Not" like my job analogy if you like, the problem is you don't understand what I was saying. I was talking about students that have "Jobs", the ones that need those jobs to help pay for school, not volunteers.

Not exactly sure where I was sounding ungrateful.

And "Foolish" to complain about a paycheck you haven't received?? They are receiving a paycheck, again not really sure what your talking about. You might also want to complain to the AFA, cadets there get paid a lot more then the stipend for ROTC, and their school is completely paid for.

If I was a scholarship cadet would I be upset if the stipend was cut, sure, it was advertised at a certain rate and then cut once enrolled, would I get over it, sure. If I was a non scholarship cadet would I grumble because someone who earned a scholarship gripped a bit over the stipend being cut...again no.

And what the heck is the "Scholarship Community" Does your Det. divide you into groups, sad if they do.

Well, maybe I did read your post wrong. When I said "you" are being ungrateful it wasn't directed at yourself but scholarship cadets who are complaining about getting the same amount of money they are getting right now (GMC, because that's who I'm around and hear complaining).

What I meant by a paycheck you haven't gotten is people (again mainly GMC) complaining about not getting more money next year. If they're all getting by now and even their 100 yr, what difference does this stipend cut make? Did they sign leases for apartments they couldn't afford on their current budget? That would be an example of the "foolish budgeting for a paycheck you haven't received". Also, just because a cadet isn't on scholarship doesn't mean they aren't deserving. Of course that's a topic of another discussion

No. Our wing isn't divided into groups. There are more scholarship cadets that are 200s and up than non scholarship cadets in my detachment so stipend and scholarship requirements are spoken about all the time. I just wish that those on scholarships would keep their complaints about stipend to themselves or other scholarship cadets. Some cadets are clocking in for a comparable paycheck and scholarship cadets have the luxury of being given that money. That's what I meant with the volunteers/work thing. I've had scholarship cadets tell me if the AF wasn't paying for their schooling they wouldn't be in ROTC. That just rubs me the wrong way personally, but that doesn't matter lol.

I don't think you understood my post either *shrugs* I was just backing up what impulse224 said, because I have some similar feelings. It seemed like your post was a rebuttal to his (Again, I may have read it wrong). I'm just watching this thread to see if there have been anymore updates about ROTC and EAs since we started Spring Break

 

[Nateman15]

TBH I couldn't care less about the stipend cut. It doesn't matter for me if I don't get an EA. Sure, it is unfortunate but these are rough times we live in and i'm just grateful to have a scholarship. Only 5/14 in my FTP flight have scholarships so I imagine there aren't many people that are going to be genuinely upset by this.

It's amazingly hard to stay positive being in this position throughout all of this. After all we have been through for the past 2 years and even prior to AFROTC, it is going to be rough seeing guys not make it due to circumstances that we only read about. You hear about how poorly the world is doing economically, but you hardly ever notice it in real life until it hits you like a freight train in situations like this.

 

[Pima]

Nateman,

Your det. CoC understands your fears and frustrations. I am assuming they are an O5 or O6. If so they probably have about 20- 25 yrs ADAF and saw 1st hand how their AFROTC peers commissioned only a yr or two ahead of them were RIF'd. In some yr groups it was 95% of ALL AFROTC grads including fliers. We had a friend that got a Silver Star in the Gulf a yr earlier, was at WIC at that time and the AF cut them. Bullet's friends that commissioned only 1 yr in front of him were all cut. These were guys he was with for 4 yrs in AFROTC, than at UNT, and some were flying the same airframe, some were at our wedding.

They get the fear, they lived it for 4 yrs. watching everyone taking a hit. Pipelines for UPT came to a screeching halt, 60% promotion rate for O4s. SERBs for O5s. Bases being closed, and planes being boneyarded. It was scary no matter what yr group because you never knew what would happen next and if you were on the next hit list. From 92-96 it was not pretty.

They are trying to do it better than they did it in the 90's. I think the AF had got it right until sequestration happened. AFHQ had been slowly lowering their numbers, so they didn't have to repeat the 90's. Yet, sequestration happened and instead of having 6 months to fix it for the next budget, they had to cut their budget to be next yrs numbers while already having spent half of it. It left them with very hard decisions. SFT is an easy choice to save money.

In previous yrs. they dis-enrolled the cadets. Don't assume that this will happen for your yr group. It will probably not happen if you look at it from AFHQ's manpower needs for ADAF. They need those numbers. MPC always has a 5 yr plan. FY15 is already in place for the amount they want commissioned.

Logically, the AFA is already at 900, probably will go down to mid 800's by graduation. Yrs past they commissioned 1000 cadets. Thus, they are short there. They cut 1/3 of AFROTC or 600, they are going to need a lot of OCS candidates. The problem is they can't predict the economy for 15. When the economy is good, military retention drops. Thus, it is a high risk to place a large number like that on OCS.

It would just be easier to roll them over to 500's because they aren't making their commissioning numbers. For our DS's class, even though they had 55% selection rate, some of them were rolled over to 500's, some were dis-enrolled. For 13, if memory serves me correctly they did not offer 500, or if they did it was extremely rare. This was the yr. group that the bulk of them bolted to AROTC.

I think the hard part is going to be for those that become 500s. For some they will be happy just to be a 500....half glass full. For some they will be disappointed...half glass empty. There will only be 1 month left, so morale will be different, but not like it will be in the fall. The reason why is those that go to SFT will be POCs. They will be able to move forward with the next step. The others will be living through the board selection again.

 

[USMCGrunt]

They are trying to do it better than they did it in the 90's. I think the AF had got it right until sequestration happened. AFHQ had been slowly lowering their numbers, so they didn't have to repeat the 90's. Yet, sequestration happened and instead of having 6 months to fix it for the next budget, they had to cut their budget to be next yrs numbers while already having spent half of it. It left them with very hard decisions. SFT is an easy choice to save money.

In previous yrs. they dis-enrolled the cadets. Don't assume that this will happen for your yr group. It will probably not happen if you look at it from AFHQ's manpower needs for ADAF. They need those numbers. MPC always has a 5 yr plan. FY15 is already in place for the amount they want commissioned.

Just a quick question for those who have been around the Air Force for awhile: it seems to me that they must have a very different approach to manning than the other branches. Reading all these posts (and others over the last few years), it seems they create very big swings of feast and famine. Too many personnel in the pipeline at one point requiring dis-enrollment followed by too few people in the pipeline.

I haven't seem the same discussion with the other branches. No one can predict manning needs with much accuracy too far in the future and no one can predict the economy from one week to the next. Yet the other branches manage this complexity differently (or so it appears to me). So I assume it is a philosphical difference of approach. Have I got this correct?

Puzzled.

 

[CH24]

If a 200 is on scholarship, are they guaranteed of getting an EA?

 

[Pima]

USMC,

The quick and easy version.

AFROTC prior to 2014 class did not hold mini-boards at the det level. If you were a 200 you were put up for SFT. Their rate was @55%. For 14 and now 15 they did min--boards. Many of the dets. looked at the historical numbers. I.E cgpa, pft, sat, and rec. If they thought the cadets weren't going to get a slot they informed them before meeting the board, thus, the rate jumped from 55% to 93%. The class sizes were still the same @2200 cadets would be selected.

It was the approach that changed, not the number....until now because of sequestration.

Now for ADAF, AFHQ saw the writing on the wall several yrs ago from an operational needs issue. The economy was not improving, thus those that they expected to do a 5 and dive, weren't. They than slowed down the pipeline a few yrs ago, by giving out less AFA appointments, less AFROTC scholarships, dis-enrolling cadets, and cancelling OCS boards. They also were cutting ADAF members busting UPT/UNT instead of washing them back or allowing them to transfer to a new AFSC. They had a handle on meeting the numbers for FY15 for ADAF.

Again, had sequestration not occurred the famine would not have really been felt, it would have been just like the previous yrs for AFROTC. They would have been the same amount at SFT, actually about 100 more than 2 yrs ago.

AFROTC is also different from AROTC because there is no guard, or reserve option. It is like NROTC in that when you commission you will go AD. SFT is basically the last chance for MPC to get the numbers in line for their commissioning yr. group.


That being said yes, the AF swings like a pendulum, but so does all the branches. For example, AFA now has their numbers under control...less than the 4000 marker, so this yr., they expect a little bit more to get appointments, whereas, USmA has announced this will be their smallest yr.

It makes sense why the AFA is starting to come back now. The AFA cut earlier because operationally they will drawing down, meanwhile the Army wasn't. Now that the Army is drawing down, they are going to address what to do with all of their personnel, especially with sequestration.

It was like this in 92. The AF had started their RIFs in 92, the Army didn't start their bulk until 93. AF had come home way before the Army.

The AF also has one other problem...many of the officers fly fix wing planes. When the airlines come back hiring at tremendous rates like they did in the late 90's they start leaving at a very fast pace, and the AF knows this. However, it is hard to keep that pipeline steady in an economy like this. The AF is trying to be proactive now because anyone in the airline industry knows they really have not hired since 2001. By law pilots can only fly until 62. If the last ones came on 12 yrs ago, avg age of 42 (20 yrs ADAF), they are now at 53. There will be a lot of them hitting that 62 age very shortly....within the next 5 yrs, and for at least 5 yrs more after that.

UPT is a 10 yr commitment from winging. That means the class of 11 will still be at a high rate of airlines hiring. That is how far out they have to plan. Thus, when a 9/11 occurs and than an economy failing for the last 5 yrs., it messes with their numbers. The only way to correct it is be surgical cuts for specific yr groups and career fields.

 

[Pima]

CH24, NO they are not guaranteed unless they have a specialty scholarship...i.e CSO/ABM...not sure about nursing, but think they are too.

Caveat it isn't guaranteed, but the board will give them preference. I.E. if they are carrying at least the AFROTC min (2.5), PFT and commander's rec. than they will be fine.

Otherwise, scholarship is not a factor when it comes to how points are awarded for SFT selection. It was they call masked/blind. The board does not know which cadet has a scholarship and which cadet does not have a scholarship.

 

[impulse224]

If a 200 is on scholarship, are they guaranteed of getting an EA?

No, It all depends on their stats after Commander ranking, GPA, ACT/SAT and PFT.

 

[S72004]

That is weird how the scholarship works. You would assume that the Air Force spending on them that they will receive "special treatment" in a way.

So lets say that a cadet on scholarship does not get picked up for SFT. What would happen then? Would they have to pay back all that money, even if they satisfied scholarship minimums?

 

[impulse224]

That is weird how the scholarship works. You would assume that the Air Force spending on them that they will receive "special treatment" in a way.

So lets say that a cadet on scholarship does not get picked up for SFT. What would happen then? Would they have to pay back all that money, even if they satisfied scholarship minimums?

I think there are many different scenarios, but a few years ago our DET had a couple people not get spots due to low GPA and PFT scores. They repeated FTP year and are still on scholarship. They're POC now.

 

[CH24]

Oh I see. Thank you. He has around 3.4 GPA, computer science major, PFT of 98, he volunteers for most everything, yet colonel told him he was on the cusp between middle and bottom third. Don't understand why.

 

[CH24]

Oh, and ACT of 28

 

[Pima]

CH,

He probably has an overachieving det.

S72004,

A lot of the scholarship cadets get picked up because many of them have college merit scholarships too. Colleges typically require a 3.0-3.2 cgpa to maintain the merit, which is significantly higher than the AFROTC scholarship of 2.5. Our DS carried a 3.3-3.4 gpa every semester because he needed to keep the merit just as much as he needed the AFROTC scholarship too.

I think this is why many people believe scholarship cadets get an edge, because they see so many get the slot over non-scholarship cadets, but it is all in the numbers.

Also if you look at the SAT/ACT scores a Type 1 or 2 recipient is ranging between 31-34. I believe the 7 avg is @29-31. This is 10 or 15% of the score.

Right there @ 25% of the score they have an edge. When the det. commander sees these 2 things, add in a strong PFT, plus if they are in outside things, like AAS or Silver Wings. They are going to rank them higher because the cadet has the whole package. That is 50% of the score.

It all starts to pile on, giving the illusion that they have an edge. It is also why I tell candidates to keep taking that SAT/ACT if you are not breaking 28 or 1250+, because it will come back and bite you as a sophomore for SFT.

UA's det may have rolled them into 500's a couple of yrs ago, our DS's det. did not. It was over for them. Many of them went to AROTC and commissioned that way.

The point is it varies yr by yr and det by det. If I recall correctly during those yrs., the det CoC had to request permission from AFROTCHQ to allow them to become a 500. Basically, they were putting their name on the line for the cadet. Many CoC's had to think about it because in the ADAF world promotion above zone is rare. If they were not in the top 55%, next yr. they already had a strike against them for the next yr. Most of the time, there was an extending circumstance for them to get support. I recall one cadet here did get to become a 500, his circumstances was over the summer his parent was diagnosed with cancer, and his grades dropped, along with everything else. The AF is not heartless, they understood and allowed it, but he knew that the pressure was on the next yr. He had to get back to where he was as a 100 regarding everything.

Nobody fret, I still stand by my position I don't think you are going to see 600 200's dis-enrolled. I think you will see the majority become 500's.

This yr is unique. SFT is going to be unique. AFROTCHQ is also going to have figure out how to handle the rated board for next yr. Typically AFROTC finds out in the spring for rated. They find out before AFA cadets, and AFROTC non-rated cadets. Because SFT ranking is part of the OML. and they now have changed the PCSM, they may hold off and have the rated board meet in the fall so they can place the 500's in the equation too.

The talk has been for a while now that the rated board would be pushed back, but than like dominoes, it creates a new set of problems. As a rising 400 with a rated slot they go to WPAFB for a 3 day FC1 physical. They also start their TS clearance paperwork, which takes months to complete. It just makes it that much harder regarding everything later on.

 

[USMCGrunt]

The quick and easy version.

Thanks Pima for the explanation.

In the end, my advice to all those considering a military career or in the pipeline (as well as those active duty folks) is to focus on what you can control and not what you you can't.

Do your best to prepare yourself for entering the military - grades, leadership, physical fitness. Do your best to excel in whichever path you take to active duty. If you make it to active duty, learn everything you can and constantly seek self-improvement. Enjoy the journey and the hard work will pay off in personal growth and experience gained. Whatever happens, happens.

By the way, it is no different in the civilian world. No one knows when a downsizing, acquisition, divestiture, etc will hit. Do your best, seek excellence, learn every day and you will be fine no matter what happens.

 

[CH24]

Thank you for your replies. I appreciate your helping me to understand the situation. Thanks again!

 

[Pima]

+1 USMC.

You can never rest on your laurels. You cannot assume because last yr you were lucky enough to be 1 of the 900 that got a scholarship nationally, you will be the star in your det. if only 2 of 20 cadets are on scholarship. Non-scholarship kids that applied for HSSP tend to have the fire in them so they can get an ICSP. They are hitting the ground running accepting nothing for granted. They need to prove that AFROTCHQ got it wrong by not offering them a scholarship. The scholarship cadet has it in hand, they still want to prove their worth, but it is different.

Just like you can be the CWC, number 1 cadet, get ENJJPT out of AFROTC, and think you will def. get a 16 or a 22 or not bust. Every step you make regarding the next level, will mean that much more work to prove yourself over again.

Nobody in ADAF gives a rats arse how you did in AFROTC. Just like nobody in AFROTC cares about how you did in JROTC.

It is all about today and tomorrow, and how you perform in your current job.

 

[aglages]

. . lets say that a cadet on scholarship does not get picked up for SFT. What would happen then? Would they have to pay back all that money, even if they satisfied scholarship minimums?

In my daughter's Detachment the scholarship cadets (class of 2014) that were not selected for SFT lost their scholarships even if they were fortunate enough to be selected for 500 status. They were not required to pay back the monies paid to them for stipends or tuition.

 

[Pima]

OBTW, carrying on with agagles post. This is why it is important to understand if you accept an AFROTC scholarship as the only way to pay for college, understand that you are truly only guaranteed for 2 yrs.

It is also why many of these posters are extremely worried. This is not just about their ADAF career ending, but also trying to figure out they will pay for school for the next 2 yrs.

Again, this yr may be unique, and for those posters that are this yr., and if you become a 500, and keep the scholarship, remember 2 yrs from now when you are a 300, don't use your yr as an example that they will let them become a 500.

It is more likely they will return to the yrs prior like 12, 13 and 14..

You will always be known, even a decade from now as the sequestration yr group when you talk to other AFROTC grads as an ADAF member about SFT. All you will have to say is my yr group was the yr sequestration happened and AFT took a hit. Everyone will look at you and say Oh yeah, I remember that yr....you guys got hit hard.

 

[aglages]

Again, this yr may be unique, and for those posters that are this yr., and if you become a 500, and keep the scholarship, remember 2 yrs from now when you are a 300, don't use your yr as an example that they will let them become a 500.

This may be the most difficult part of trying to understand AFROTC. Each year is different and when you factor in unusual/unexpected circumstances like RIFs and Sequestration, it is difficult to predict with any certainty how matters will be handled.