CristalLee
5-Year Member
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This breaks my heart. Wow and quite amazing that no facts were checked. Best to you and yours.
2016 USNA Mailbox Stalkers Club...
- Thread starter profsparrow
- Start date
This breaks my heart. Wow and quite amazing that no facts were checked. Best to you and yours.
usna1985
15-Year Member
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- Jun 9, 2006
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First of all, I know this is a tough moment for so many on this site and beyond.
Want to clarify the statement above. Your BGO does not even see the activities record or any other part of a candidate's packet other than SAT/ACT scores. Nothing -- for privacy reasons. Most importantly, it is not his/her job to "verify" anything. Most BGOs ask candidates about their activities. However, being honest, if a kid lies to us, there's not a whole lot we can do to detect it. And even if we suspect the kid is lying, there's nothing we can do beyond alerting USNA that it's a possibility that the kid is being untruthful; there's almost no way for us to prove it short of calling the school and, again, we'd run into privacy issue with any school. Believe me, BGOs are also frustrated when great candidates get turndowns, but we are not the all-powerful gods people think us to be.
The person who is supposed to verify the school activities is your school counselor. However, I would imagine that at most schools it's a huge undertaking given the number of students and gaps exist. Not fair but probably a reality.
If the candidate you describe is a habitual liar, he won't last long at USNA. I realize that won't change your son's situation but bad acts eventually catch up with you.
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Don't really know. The number is not published, but given the radical cutback to in school scholarships this year and the big emphasis on awarding in state scholarships certainly the money was very tight. I don't think the variable costs per student at USNA are very high. Most of the costs there are fixed so there us not much to be saved there. But variable costs per NROTC midshipman can be high so there is an opportunity for considerable savings there. Not that I have any insight, but that's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
Supposedly ROTC and Academies don't talk. That's why you'll see some folks get awarded both, so I doubt your husband's theory is correct. I also expect the number of ROTC applicants is higher than to the Academies. Most academy applicants apply to ROTC as well, but there are many ROTC applicants who do not apply to an academy. So the ROTC pool is larger and just numerically speaking one's odds would be lower.
Is it worth the effort?
After watching the USNA selection process turn out so poorly for so many excellent candidates, I would have a hard time recommending the USNA as a way for young people wanting to serve their country. It seems the USNA has lost its way. I am starting to believe the recent articles in the Washington Post - the academy has sold itself out to meet diversity quotas and to have a better football team.
Even the BGOs seem confused. The best candidates they have seen in years are getting rejection notices. Something is wrong in admissions at the USNA, and the Government Accountability Office should investigate. Until that investigations happens, it seems the process of applying to the USNA for many, is time foolishly spent.
After watching the USNA selection process turn out so poorly for so many excellent candidates, I would have a hard time recommending the USNA as a way for young people wanting to serve their country. It seems the USNA has lost its way. I am starting to believe the recent articles in the Washington Post - the academy has sold itself out to meet diversity quotas and to have a better football team.
Even the BGOs seem confused. The best candidates they have seen in years are getting rejection notices. Something is wrong in admissions at the USNA, and the Government Accountability Office should investigate. Until that investigations happens, it seems the process of applying to the USNA for many, is time foolishly spent.
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- 2,418
First, the class profile is easy to access, so to think that USNA is one of the easier ways to serve their country, well that simply is not true, given the number of candidates and class sizes (even looking at the past).
Second, I'm pretty sure the same exact issues you mention here exist at USMA/USAFA. So should we shut down USNA, USMA, USAFA?
I'd argue that for every football player or every MIDN in a "diversity" category, you could find another MIDN, not in those categories, who is not fitted for the challenge at USNA. Don't blame these groups of people or "quotas."
BGOs are confused because we have no idea on how the decisions (or thought process) are made and all of us think WE have the best candidates! I thought 2 of my candidates would get appointments, none did! This year (as many BGOs on here have stated) had so many curve balls thrown at Admissions -- reduction in class size, increase in candidates -- combined with a tough economy -- the competition must of been EXTREMELY tough. I don't think there is anything wrong with the process, it's the same one they have used for years.
If there is something to complain about, march to Congress and ask them to expand the Brigade size so that more "well qualified" candidates are appointed.
USNA2016Dad
5-Year Member
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- Dec 4, 2011
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- 290
Poorly for Many, Excellent for Some
I know this is a very stressful and anxious time for many USNA applicants and their families but you appear to be questioning the integrity of the Admissions Board at USNA. Your statements imply many of the applicants who have received appointments for the class of 2016 are undeserving and that, IMHO, is not credible. If any young people ask me about the opportunities at USNA I will wholeheartedly encourage them to look into USNA and pursue it with all their dedication and energy just as the 87 (by last count) who have posted their appointments on this forum and thousands of others have done.
Sincerely...
I know this is a very stressful and anxious time for many USNA applicants and their families but you appear to be questioning the integrity of the Admissions Board at USNA. Your statements imply many of the applicants who have received appointments for the class of 2016 are undeserving and that, IMHO, is not credible. If any young people ask me about the opportunities at USNA I will wholeheartedly encourage them to look into USNA and pursue it with all their dedication and energy just as the 87 (by last count) who have posted their appointments on this forum and thousands of others have done.
Sincerely...
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Admissions
Fresh back tonight from a campus tour at UVA with my DS (part of plan B). The admission lady giving the talk discussed their selection process. Basically, she said grades were tossed. Hard to reasonably compare students on that criteria since schools use such different rating systems. Class rank was a key factor used for consideration for classroom performance. I think she said 90% were top 10% of class. SAT/ACT were secondary factor. Course rigor was major factor. Taking AP/IB courses important but relative to what your school had to offer. Some offer 5, some offer 25. Did you challenge yourself and take advantage of what was available? PS - she is not saying you have to take all that is offer. Also, the school profile provided by your counselor likely inidicates the more difficult courses your school offers. Did you take them or opt for easier? Did the student seek challenges? ECA's important (quality not quantity). Essays very key. All of the above were similar to what we have heard at other schools.
Bottomline, numbers don't always tell the full story. It's what behind the numbers. To applicants considering starting the application don't get hung up on the stats you see posted here. Look at your own record and ask yourself the hard questions. Where can I do better? What can I do better? Be smart and don't go overboard (balance). Competition/Circumstances in your district will very year to year. What gets you in USMA this year may not get you into USNA and vice versa. Next will look totally different. Some stuff you just can't control! Control the things you can. Most inportantly you can't get an appointment if you don't apply!!!
I think USNA's greatness is in it's diversity. There are few schools that pull students from every corner of our country. The cutural and ethnic diversity of each class strengthens our ranks and leadership.
Fresh back tonight from a campus tour at UVA with my DS (part of plan B). The admission lady giving the talk discussed their selection process. Basically, she said grades were tossed. Hard to reasonably compare students on that criteria since schools use such different rating systems. Class rank was a key factor used for consideration for classroom performance. I think she said 90% were top 10% of class. SAT/ACT were secondary factor. Course rigor was major factor. Taking AP/IB courses important but relative to what your school had to offer. Some offer 5, some offer 25. Did you challenge yourself and take advantage of what was available? PS - she is not saying you have to take all that is offer. Also, the school profile provided by your counselor likely inidicates the more difficult courses your school offers. Did you take them or opt for easier? Did the student seek challenges? ECA's important (quality not quantity). Essays very key. All of the above were similar to what we have heard at other schools.
Bottomline, numbers don't always tell the full story. It's what behind the numbers. To applicants considering starting the application don't get hung up on the stats you see posted here. Look at your own record and ask yourself the hard questions. Where can I do better? What can I do better? Be smart and don't go overboard (balance). Competition/Circumstances in your district will very year to year. What gets you in USMA this year may not get you into USNA and vice versa. Next will look totally different. Some stuff you just can't control! Control the things you can. Most inportantly you can't get an appointment if you don't apply!!!
I think USNA's greatness is in it's diversity. There are few schools that pull students from every corner of our country. The cutural and ethnic diversity of each class strengthens our ranks and leadership.
nofodad
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2011
- Messages
- 554
worth it
As a frequent lurker and ocassional poster to this forum, I have to say that our family's experience applying for both NROTC and USNA although neither fruitful, was very valuable. The "process" of applying to both was tedious but tested his desire to become a Naval Officer and I think cemented it. We all think our children are the best and the brightest, and qualified candidates get denied each year (our BGO, Naval Science Instructor and guidance counselor were all surprised our DS received neither the NROTC scholarship nor a USNA appointment). As I told DS, sometimes the best thing in life is to NOT get what you wanted. It's the same thing my father told me when I had disappointments. There are many paths, and the last time I checked the top graduate form the Academy and the bottom finisher from OCS both hold the same rank.
As a frequent lurker and ocassional poster to this forum, I have to say that our family's experience applying for both NROTC and USNA although neither fruitful, was very valuable. The "process" of applying to both was tedious but tested his desire to become a Naval Officer and I think cemented it. We all think our children are the best and the brightest, and qualified candidates get denied each year (our BGO, Naval Science Instructor and guidance counselor were all surprised our DS received neither the NROTC scholarship nor a USNA appointment). As I told DS, sometimes the best thing in life is to NOT get what you wanted. It's the same thing my father told me when I had disappointments. There are many paths, and the last time I checked the top graduate form the Academy and the bottom finisher from OCS both hold the same rank.
usna1985
15-Year Member
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- Jun 9, 2006
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- 7,855
Trust me, this happens with civilian schools as well. Years ago, I was told by the dean of admissions of a prestigious northeastern liberal arts college that I was a "shoo-in" for an acceptance. Got a flat turndown.
I've no doubt that thousands of applicants to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, UVA, UT, and on and on are opening TWEs and WL letters this week. And that all of them and their parents think they are truly outstanding students (which most of them undoubtedly are).
I understand that the SAs are federally-funded institutions. However, college admissions at all highly competitive schools are fundamentally the same: too many well qualified students for too few places. Somehow, each admissions office has to decide who to admit and no method they use will ever leave everyone satisfied.
I've no doubt that thousands of applicants to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, UVA, UT, and on and on are opening TWEs and WL letters this week. And that all of them and their parents think they are truly outstanding students (which most of them undoubtedly are).
I understand that the SAs are federally-funded institutions. However, college admissions at all highly competitive schools are fundamentally the same: too many well qualified students for too few places. Somehow, each admissions office has to decide who to admit and no method they use will ever leave everyone satisfied.
Eagle One-
Please stop with the diversity thing. My very well qualified Hispanic son was also turned down. I have seen many postings of accepted students with scores lower than his, and he has all of the volunteer, varsity letters, leadership of other kids. Our MOC did not have a slot open so he was in the NP. Sometimes it is just geography and nothing more.
And someone was asking about NROTC. My son received NROTC Marine Corps Scholarship to University of Michigan. I was told that there were only 270 Marine Corps scholarships given out this year- that number seems very low to me but since someone was asking, I thought I would share.
Please stop with the diversity thing. My very well qualified Hispanic son was also turned down. I have seen many postings of accepted students with scores lower than his, and he has all of the volunteer, varsity letters, leadership of other kids. Our MOC did not have a slot open so he was in the NP. Sometimes it is just geography and nothing more.
And someone was asking about NROTC. My son received NROTC Marine Corps Scholarship to University of Michigan. I was told that there were only 270 Marine Corps scholarships given out this year- that number seems very low to me but since someone was asking, I thought I would share.
I agree your DS is very well qualified. The statistics do show diversity is big advantage though. Sorry it didn't work out for your DS.
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profsparrow
5-Year Member
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- Dec 7, 2010
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- 240
From what I've gathered from reading many of the SA forums, "diversity" is the attempt by the SA to match the diversity of the Active Duty serving at the time. And as in all other things that the Academies do while selecting appointees, it's complicated in that they are also seeking diversity not only in culture, but in lifestyles, leadership, athletics, academic interests, etc. I'm sure they have some kind of plan to put all this together, but I'm glad it's not MY job. 
Got a TWE today but was happy when I read that I have been placed on the waitlist for NAPS. At least the door is not completely shut. Not sure what my chances are of getting a spot from the list but I'm going to remain hopeful but very cautiously. I'm moving forward as though I'll be going to The Citadel in August, and if I get a call that my name has been pulled from the list, then great but if not, The Citadel is a great place and I know good things will come. Best of luck to everyone still waiting. Looks like I'll be waiting a little longer here in NC...
curious
I know it's difficult to write on this thread having son that was very qualified get a rejection letter, without sounding like a parent with sour grapes--we are working to accept that the process is imperfect overseen by imperfect people, etc....
However, I am curious about what exactly is the role of the Regional Admissions Officer assigned to each candidate in the application process? I've heard some candidates say their regional officer was their advocate and really went to bat for them, yet in our experience, my son had to put in several calls and/or emails to get a response, etc... any ideas? Just trying to figure out the real rules to the game before deciding to re apply next year... willing to play by the rules, but they seem to be different in different situations...
I know it's difficult to write on this thread having son that was very qualified get a rejection letter, without sounding like a parent with sour grapes--we are working to accept that the process is imperfect overseen by imperfect people, etc....
However, I am curious about what exactly is the role of the Regional Admissions Officer assigned to each candidate in the application process? I've heard some candidates say their regional officer was their advocate and really went to bat for them, yet in our experience, my son had to put in several calls and/or emails to get a response, etc... any ideas? Just trying to figure out the real rules to the game before deciding to re apply next year... willing to play by the rules, but they seem to be different in different situations...
That would make me want to question the counselor. Is there some relationship between the counselor and the candidate (i.e. friend of family, relative). Bottomline, that person didn't do his/her job and should be held accountable. Not that your DS would have received the appt. if the other person was DQ'd (since the selection process is such a mystery) but I know it would make me feel better to have all parties held accountable. So sad that some people feel it's acceptable to lie and brag about it. I can say it happens in my son's small school too. Our community foundation gives one full ride a year to any in-state public school. If it's awarded to a student who I know is applying and has cheated several times on exams, I will be sick!
Best of luck to your DS on his future success! Sometimes I think the failures and the unfairness that our children face, will help them in the long run.
My stalking is over 
. No USNA appt and no NROTC scholarship. Found out 1 day apart. The one thing that does ease the pain is reading the thread where people w/ appts. are posting their stats. Quite an impressive group so my DS has nothing to be ashamed of. He was competitive until the end. Plan C, here he comes. Ironically, he is going through informal rush today at one of the universities he was accepted to. I need to believe that God's plan is not what I thought and I look forward to seeing what it is. Now, for some much needed retail and chocolate therapy for DM (Dear Mom) 
! Onward and upward we go.
. No USNA appt and no NROTC scholarship. Found out 1 day apart. The one thing that does ease the pain is reading the thread where people w/ appts. are posting their stats. Quite an impressive group so my DS has nothing to be ashamed of. He was competitive until the end. Plan C, here he comes. Ironically, he is going through informal rush today at one of the universities he was accepted to. I need to believe that God's plan is not what I thought and I look forward to seeing what it is. Now, for some much needed retail and chocolate therapy for DM (Dear Mom) ! Onward and upward we go.
USNA2016Dad
5-Year Member
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- Dec 4, 2011
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- 290
A Fine Example
Your positive attitude will take you wherever you desire. I'm sure you've heard misery loves company but I hope you've also heard that leadership is contagious. Your positive outlook will allow you to see the liver lining in less than ideal situations while some around you have their eyes closed.
Good Luck to You and Others Like You...
Your positive attitude will take you wherever you desire. I'm sure you've heard misery loves company but I hope you've also heard that leadership is contagious. Your positive outlook will allow you to see the liver lining in less than ideal situations while some around you have their eyes closed.
Good Luck to You and Others Like You...
a little bit of luck.....
DS applied last year and got the dreaded TWE. This year received an appointment. It became clear to us during this 2-year application process that all the young adults applying were superb, well rounded, outstanding individuals with leadership capabilities. We knew of one of the candidates appointed in our state last year to one of the academies, and she was incredible (national merit scholar, Div 1 athlete, great person). DS said she deserved an appointment (though he was disappointed he was not chosen). He was fortunate this year but we decided we were going to be positive regardless of the outcome, because all he could do was his best, and even his best might not be good enough as there are a lot of other factors involved in whether or not an appointment is issued (ie/how many spots are available, who else is applying in your geographic area, etc). (I have tremendous respect for the committee that has to review all these applications; they have a really difficult job and I am sure they agonize over these choices).
So though the wait/disappointment seems overwhelming (I remember last year....sigh.....) dont let this process get you down because you are all great, will be successful, and in many cases there is just a little bit of luck
between a TWE and a BFE.
My stalking is over
DS applied last year and got the dreaded TWE. This year received an appointment. It became clear to us during this 2-year application process that all the young adults applying were superb, well rounded, outstanding individuals with leadership capabilities. We knew of one of the candidates appointed in our state last year to one of the academies, and she was incredible (national merit scholar, Div 1 athlete, great person). DS said she deserved an appointment (though he was disappointed he was not chosen). He was fortunate this year but we decided we were going to be positive regardless of the outcome, because all he could do was his best, and even his best might not be good enough as there are a lot of other factors involved in whether or not an appointment is issued (ie/how many spots are available, who else is applying in your geographic area, etc). (I have tremendous respect for the committee that has to review all these applications; they have a really difficult job and I am sure they agonize over these choices).
So though the wait/disappointment seems overwhelming (I remember last year....sigh.....
) dont let this process get you down because you are all great, will be successful, and in many cases there is just a little bit of luck between a TWE and a BFE.