2nd Thoughts

I cannot express any opinion on whether you should go or not. But I have met many of the class of 2017 this past year, and ALL I met, including my kid, had lots of buyers remorse the 4 weeks and up until the morning of R-Day.....and then it got worse! -; By two weeks in, it wasnt worth quitting over (well, it was for 10 or 20 kids), but it definitely sucked, but by A Day, 'it wasn't so bad'. Then it just got better and better. He loved the first year, and like most of them, is really excited to be an Officer, already looking past being a Cadet. He is right now palling around with those who are already his closest friends in Manhatten, with two shiney silver dollars given to him by Firsty sports team mates who honored him by asking him to give them their Commissioned first salute at pin on yesterday. It was also kind of cool to have the President stop by yesterday -;, recognizing the importance of this elite group of 4200 very young people. Buyers remorse in the weeks leading up to R day is common, if not universal. After the first year, I see a ton of pride. As was said in "Absolutely American", West Point Cadets are 'Grand, Epic, Complainers, and probably the happiest college students in America.' That has been my observation as well.

Now to the 7 figure annual aspirations. Hmmm. I got there (no where close in my 20's though). My dad (A grad) always told me money is made by being extraordinarily good at what you do, and that takes love, and the ability to get other people to embrace and accelerate your vision. In fact, and he was very successful, he said 'The World is becoming so highly technical and specialized, that the real value is from becoming a translator among specialists. That is what I learned to be at West Point".

The economy has seriously changed. There are no 20 something fast track programs for BA's at Xerox, or GE or Merrill Lynch, like there were a generation ago. You can do CS or Chemistry or Double E, and make $100k in your early 20's, (and $150k at 50) but other than that, its more likely than not you will be living at home in your 20's doing unpaid internships, trying to have a resume that interests someone. At that same time, the USMA grad is going to have serious responsibility for over 100 people. The civilian world has very little use for 20 somethings today unless you can code or do chemistry. The military assigns much greater responsibility to its Officers, and the commercial world highly values that. Private careers dont really start now until you are in your 30's, at least the ones you aspire to. Being a Captain entering the commercial world at 27 is far more interesting to an employer than having been at 4 internships and finally getting to run a 2 or 3 man marketing team at 26.

Just my two cents.

Your input is greatly appreciated and resonated with me a lot. Although, I plan to be self-employed so impressing an employer is irrelevant. Thanks!
 
Your input is greatly appreciated and resonated with me a lot. Although, I plan to be self-employed so impressing an employer is irrelevant. Thanks!


Thats a really good theory, but you still have to bring something very special to the table to get the money to BE self employed, from ME, the Venture Capitalists who fund the entrpreneurs -;

A number of our very best entrepreneur/CEO's are Academy Grads or OCS, then HBS/Stanford/Wharton, then the Goldman or Mckinsey drill, then they are fundable by people like me. You would be really amazed how many of the most elite of th elite 30 something young business guys were Officers first. A Far higher percentage in my world than are Harvard or Yale undergrads. Really.....
 
Thats a really good theory, but you still have to bring something very special to the table to get the money to BE self employed, from ME, the Venture Capitalists who fund the entrpreneurs -;

A number of our very best entrepreneur/CEO's are Academy Grads or OCS, then HBS/Stanford/Wharton, then the Goldman or Mckinsey drill, then they are fundable by people like me. You would be really amazed how many of the most elite of th elite 30 something young business guys were Officers first. A Far higher percentage in my world than are Harvard or Yale undergrads. Really.....

And even if you win the lottery, and don't need capital......you still have to impress customers, AND the people you will need to hire -;

Some good advice given to me as a college intern by an Academy Grad at his little start up called Electronic Data Systems. "Careers are Marathons, not sprints".... Ross Perot
 
Thats a really good theory, but you still have to bring something very special to the table to get the money to BE self employed, from ME, the Venture Capitalists who fund the entrpreneurs -;

A number of our very best entrepreneur/CEO's are Academy Grads or OCS, then HBS/Stanford/Wharton, then the Goldman or Mckinsey drill, then they are fundable by people like me. You would be really amazed how many of the most elite of th elite 30 something young business guys were Officers first. A Far higher percentage in my world than are Harvard or Yale undergrads. Really.....

You must live in a military rich environment. In 30 years of business I have run into maybe one Academy grad and could count the prior military officers on one hand. In all fairness, I do live in Seattle.

Great advice though.
 
Wow, what a thread! You've received some very good input and it does not appear to be sinking in. And perhaps some judgmental comments as well, but you sort of asked for it with tone.

You are thinking of entering a very rigid, harsh, and somewhat unforgiving environment. Where the focus is the team & mission, possibly at the expense of "me". You are going to be competing with some very motivated people.

Appointees enter for very different reasons. Not all are motivated the same:

The ones who seem to thrive generally have a passion for being an officer, and all that means. Servant leadership, excellence, improving the team, etc. And often view the adversity as the path to being the best officer they can. "Embrace the suck!"

There are others who tough it out, are somewhat miserable, but feel the outcome is worth the experience. They have a specific goal or plan, and are executing to it. They also make it through in most cases and do well in their path.

Then there are the ones had unrealistic expectations, living someone else's dream, or had just not thought things through. They tend not to last long.

The fact you have stated no desire or passion to be an officer tells me you are not in the first group.

You've not stated a plan ("Graduate, join XYZ branch, get an MS, then go do ABC"). So my guess is you are not in the 2nd group.

Which tells me that unless something changes or we missed something, you are in the third group. And should probably let someone else have your slot.

The big question is what is your plan B? Accepted to Stanford, Princeton, Duke, Emory, Harvard, Wharton, Yale???? You've stated a goal of reaching the top .3% of US income by 28... what is the path you plan to take if you decline USMA?

No matter what, if you decline your appointment please let us know who you are so we can watch for you in INC, Forbes, or Fortune! :)
 
Thats a really good theory, but you still have to bring something very special to the table to get the money to BE self employed, from ME, the Venture Capitalists who fund the entrpreneurs -;

A number of our very best entrepreneur/CEO's are Academy Grads or OCS, then HBS/Stanford/Wharton, then the Goldman or Mckinsey drill, then they are fundable by people like me. You would be really amazed how many of the most elite of th elite 30 something young business guys were Officers first. A Far higher percentage in my world than are Harvard or Yale undergrads. Really.....

Very interesting...Noted.
 
And even if you win the lottery, and don't need capital......you still have to impress customers, AND the people you will need to hire -;

Some good advice given to me as a college intern by an Academy Grad at his little start up called Electronic Data Systems. "Careers are Marathons, not sprints".... Ross Perot

Does anyone at all need to be impressed? Can you not find a market and fulfill the needs therein? What's your take on this? Interesting quote; makes sense.
 
You must live in a military rich environment. In 30 years of business I have run into maybe one Academy grad and could count the prior military officers on one hand. In all fairness, I do live in Seattle.

Great advice though.

Yes, am in DC, but a pure commercial VC. There are a lot of former Officers. Jim Kimsey got the AOL Chairman gig from Classmate Frank Caulfeld who started Kleiner Perkins.

In our more contemporary portfolio, we have an Ivy grad Marine OCS Intel Officer who did his 5, HBS, then focussed on the Education area and is CEO of a great start up in the Valley.

An OGA Field Officer, then HBS, big company, then start up CEO.

Seal out of Harvard, then McKinsey.

USNA, then HBS, McKinsey, then a hugely successful start up.

Know another USNA grad who commanded a Six Team. Wharton, and has done very well. (Call that path '15 and fly' -;)

Stanford, not so much, but Harvard and Wharton B Schools are loaded with Officers. I think the West Coast self selects people who are 'on the make'. On the east coast, and Wall Street, its more old fashioned. You don't get rich by wanting to get rich. You get rich (not always, but usually) by wanting to make a difference, you are trusted, and you have demonstrated you can attract and grow talent.

I am not suggesting Service is a ticket to Fortune. Its not. I am suggesting that the traits of leaders (one of which is to be able to see 10 years out at 18) are very common in todays young Officers, and in successful entrepreneurs. Lots of Officers are by the books guys who simply cannot see out of the box. So are lots of 22 Harvard grads crunching numbers at a buyout firm deluding themselves that they will be a partner.

Cream rises in every field, and the traits that lead people to the top, in my experience, are more common in 27 year old Officers who 'branch' industry, than they are in 27 year old kids who branch 'money' with some puffed up volunteer work in 'financial services'.

My Dad wanted nothing but to be a General. Couldn't stomach the firing of his hero, McCarthur, and quit and joined his generations McKinsey, Booz Allen, and then was one of the Computer Industry pioneers (called in by a USMA grad/Rhodes Scholar to help him with a tough turnaround). His best friend from HS wanted nothing more than a Scholarship out of USMA, and out. He retired MG.

You just never know, but Perot had it wrong. Eagles do indeed flock.
 
Wow, what a thread! You've received some very good input and it does not appear to be sinking in. And perhaps some judgmental comments as well, but you sort of asked for it with tone.

You are thinking of entering a very rigid, harsh, and somewhat unforgiving environment. Where the focus is the team & mission, possibly at the expense of "me". You are going to be competing with some very motivated people.

Appointees enter for very different reasons. Not all are motivated the same:

The ones who seem to thrive generally have a passion for being an officer, and all that means. Servant leadership, excellence, improving the team, etc. And often view the adversity as the path to being the best officer they can. "Embrace the suck!"

There are others who tough it out, are somewhat miserable, but feel the outcome is worth the experience. They have a specific goal or plan, and are executing to it. They also make it through in most cases and do well in their path.

Then there are the ones had unrealistic expectations, living someone else's dream, or had just not thought things through. They tend not to last long.

The fact you have stated no desire or passion to be an officer tells me you are not in the first group.

You've not stated a plan ("Graduate, join XYZ branch, get an MS, then go do ABC"). So my guess is you are not in the 2nd group.

Which tells me that unless something changes or we missed something, you are in the third group. And should probably let someone else have your slot.

The big question is what is your plan B? Accepted to Stanford, Princeton, Duke, Emory, Harvard, Wharton, Yale???? You've stated a goal of reaching the top .3% of US income by 28... what is the path you plan to take if you decline USMA?

No matter what, if you decline your appointment please let us know who you are so we can watch for you in INC, Forbes, or Fortune! :)

Not sure what part of my responses gave you the impression that it's not "sinking in." My desire to be an officer is not to "defend freedom and serve." You missed the part where I said my desire to be an officer is grounded more in self development, becoming a better leader and manager, and positively impacting those under me. You seem to be insinuating that 7 digits is unrealistic? I could be off here (wouldn't be the first time). If that's the case, all I can do is laugh.
 
I felt 100% sure of my decision when I re-applied, and up till about 2 months ago. You helped me dial it in I believe- I feel that I may be scared of missing opportunities. This sounds silly when I say it, and pretty vague. Thanks for your input.

Are you a gambler? I recall something like for gamblers not gambling is like losing as they only think about what they could win. They don't think about what they could lose.

Best of luck to you as odds are against you. What you think as you might be missing are not likely to be there to be missed. Perhaps you might be the next founders of Google or Facebook, or if you take your time Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Michael Dell, or Kevin Plank. The difference between these folks and average folks, and "failures" is something called life, which we don't control.
 
Yes, am in DC, but a pure commercial VC. There are a lot of former Officers. Jim Kimsey got the AOL Chairman gig from Classmate Frank Caulfeld who started Kleiner Perkins.

In our more contemporary portfolio, we have an Ivy grad Marine OCS Intel Officer who did his 5, HBS, then focussed on the Education area and is CEO of a great start up in the Valley.

An OGA Field Officer, then HBS, big company, then start up CEO.

Seal out of Harvard, then McKinsey.

USNA, then HBS, McKinsey, then a hugely successful start up.

Know another USNA grad who commanded a Six Team. Wharton, and has done very well. (Call that path '15 and fly' -;)

Stanford, not so much, but Harvard and Wharton B Schools are loaded with Officers. I think the West Coast self selects people who are 'on the make'. On the east coast, and Wall Street, its more old fashioned. You don't get rich by wanting to get rich. You get rich (not always, but usually) by wanting to make a difference, you are trusted, and you have demonstrated you can attract and grow talent.

I am not suggesting Service is a ticket to Fortune. Its not. I am suggesting that the traits of leaders (one of which is to be able to see 10 years out at 18) are very common in todays young Officers, and in successful entrepreneurs. Lots of Officers are by the books guys who simply cannot see out of the box. So are lots of 22 Harvard grads crunching numbers at a buyout firm deluding themselves that they will be a partner.

Cream rises in every field, and the traits that lead people to the top, in my experience, are more common in 27 year old Officers who 'branch' industry, than they are in 27 year old kids who branch 'money' with some puffed up volunteer work in 'financial services'.

My Dad wanted nothing but to be a General. Couldn't stomach the firing of his hero, McCarthur, and quit and joined his generations McKinsey, Booz Allen, and then was one of the Computer Industry pioneers (called in by a USMA grad/Rhodes Scholar to help him with a tough turnaround). His best friend from HS wanted nothing more than a Scholarship out of USMA, and out. He retired MG.

You just never know, but Perot had it wrong. Eagles do indeed flock.

Very interesting. Your posts are very intriguing to me.
 
Are you a gambler? I recall something like for gamblers not gambling is like losing as they only think about what they could win. They don't think about what they could lose.

Best of luck to you as odds are against you. What you think as you might be missing are not likely to be there to be missed. Perhaps you might be the next founders of Google or Facebook, or if you take your time Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Michael Dell, or Kevin Plank. The difference between these folks and average folks, and "failures" is something called life, which we don't control.

Thanks for your input.
 
Very interesting. Your posts are very intriguing to me.

Great success is a bi product of great contributions (mostly...life is indeed unfair....but it usually gets it pretty much right at the end of the day)

It is the TYPE of people that serve today that tend to contribute a lot in every field they pursue. The military is full of ticket punchers as is Industry. Most get 'found' but we all know 4 stars who are empty suits -- and their classmates laugh at them. It sounds to me like you are mainly driven by wanting to be respected, and you think money does that. It doesn't, but if thats the game, become a Cardio doc, or anesthesia. If you don't want late calls, a good braces doc can make $600k and not work late.

I think you are missing that the passion about the journey as being the key signature of successful people. End states come from work, and good end states come from putting others first (customers are not 'marks' -- they are what good businesses are obsessed with)

I think its worth an hour to watch this. He nailed what this all about, and it certainly isn't for everyone, nor the only path. http://www.c-span.org/video/?169463-1/book-discussion-absolutely-american-four-years-west-point

Maybe I am reading you wrong, but I am not sure if you think you are too good for your appointment, or if you truly believe that 'desire' is anything more than a 5% input to creating value, and you are good to go at 22 with your BA. Ideas are cheap. People who can be trusted to execute, and to do right when no one is looking, are the guys that I am looking for to give my Willy Wonka ticket when I move on.

Not being critical at all. Just trying to help you, and others, to think a little longer.
 
Not sure what part of my responses gave you the impression that it's not "sinking in." My desire to be an officer is not to "defend freedom and serve." You missed the part where I said my desire to be an officer is grounded more in self development, becoming a better leader and manager, and positively impacting those under me.

Yes, you mention those desires later, but in your "why I want to attend" did not mention it. And as other's have pointed out, not all are driven/attracted to the role of an Army officer, much less the career oriented one.

But since you will spend 13 years around officers, expected to behave like one, measured against other officers, then serve as one... it helps to have a passion for it or a plan/goal on how you will use the USMA & officer experience to further your career. Much more than just "boost my resume".

I know cadets not that different from you, but they have a plan. More than "go to USMA, 5 & dive, then magic occurs and I'm making 7 figures".

It usually involves a clear career path, advanced education, specific branches/duties, and internships/AIAD's along the way to position for that.

Maybe you have all that laid out, but you've not even hinted such.

You seem to be insinuating that 7 digits is unrealistic? I could be off here (wouldn't be the first time). If that's the case, all I can do is laugh.

Seven digit income would be top .3% of US incomes. Many of the people you seem intent to debate with here are in the top 1-2%, myself included.

So is 7 figure annual income by 28 realistic for you? Don't know. (But I'd be willing to place a bet) Even if you discount the non-working, what do you plan to do that would allow you to earn more than 95% of others, much less 99.7%? Especially if you chose the easier route bypassing USMA.
 
Great success is a bi product of great contributions (mostly...life is indeed unfair....but it usually gets it pretty much right at the end of the day)

It is the TYPE of people that serve today that tend to contribute a lot in every field they pursue. The military is full of ticket punchers as is Industry. Most get 'found' but we all know 4 stars who are empty suits -- and their classmates laugh at them. It sounds to me like you are mainly driven by wanting to be respected, and you think money does that. It doesn't, but if thats the game, become a Cardio doc, or anesthesia. If you don't want late calls, a good braces doc can make $600k and not work late.

I think you are missing that the passion about the journey as being the key signature of successful people. End states come from work, and good end states come from putting others first (customers are not 'marks' -- they are what good businesses are obsessed with)

I think its worth an hour to watch this. He nailed what this all about, and it certainly isn't for everyone, nor the only path. http://www.c-span.org/video/?169463-1/book-discussion-absolutely-american-four-years-west-point

Maybe I am reading you wrong, but I am not sure if you think you are too good for your appointment, or if you truly believe that 'desire' is anything more than a 5% input to creating value, and you are good to go at 22 with your BA. Ideas are cheap. People who can be trusted to execute, and to do right when no one is looking, are the guys that I am looking for to give my Willy Wonka ticket when I move on.

Not being critical at all. Just trying to help you, and others, to think a little longer.

I don't think I am too good to go to WP, hell I feel blessed to have the opportunity, and in all honesty, I don't even think i'm all that great compared to a lot of the kids I met during WP functions. One of the SEO guys I was following for a while made a point to express that creating value was #1 to being successful. While i'm not sure that he formulated that himself, it really resonated with me and makes a lot of sense. I will definitely take the time to watch that. You stated that your Dad is a grad, and that your son is currently there. Did you yourself attend? How old are you out of curiosity? Thanks again.
 
Mr. Positivity, Congratulations on your appointment as a CC to the USMA Class of 2018. You must be a remarkable young man to have achieved this. This is a very interesting discussion/post on the Service Academy Forums. There is a lot of information here. There is always angst with change and life altering decisions. You know yourself better than anyone else here. I wish you the best with your decision. My DS CC will get your back and I am sure you will for him if you report for R Day and persevere through Beast and Plebe year.
 
I don't think I am too good to go to WP, hell I feel blessed to have the opportunity, and in all honesty, I don't even think i'm all that great compared to a lot of the kids I met during WP functions. One of the SEO guys I was following for a while made a point to express that creating value was #1 to being successful. While i'm not sure that he formulated that himself, it really resonated with me and makes a lot of sense. I will definitely take the time to watch that. You stated that your Dad is a grad, and that your son is currently there. Did you yourself attend? How old are you out of curiosity? Thanks again.

53

My Dad was '52 and very hard core about honor, duty, country, and that what we have as individuals, was paid for by those who came before us, and honoring them is first of all our duties. Service to them, more than service to our Country, no matter what it costs us personally, we owe. His brother was shot at Bastogne. He went to Harvard Law. Made Millions. His oldest brother flew B-24's. Shot down 3 times. Harvard Business. Made millions. It is their service, not their millions, that their grandchildren respect.

Their Dad was gassed in WW I and died when mine was was 10. He thought that that physical/money rewards were secondary and a bi product of creating value for others. He also had great disdain for silver spoon kids. He had made a lot of money. So I wanted a car at 16.....so I worked 40 hours a week at Kentucky Fried Chicken and got one. My grades weren't great. 40th percentile. But I was not only a great chicken man. I was also a National Merit Scholar Finalist. I got lots of letters from schools that wanted NMSF's but the very first was from West Point. That got Dad off my back -;

I had a two foot steel bar put in my back at 16 and that was that. So no uniformed service for me. But the DNA is still there. The Military collects smart people who are innovative. I do a lot of stuff to help out. They pay me $1 dollar a year. (So they can hold my tickets). I am overpaid, and I hope they don't read these pages, because I would do this for free -;
 
Yes, you mention those desires later, but in your "why I want to attend" did not mention it. And as other's have pointed out, not all are driven/attracted to the role of an Army officer, much less the career oriented one.

Fair enough.

But since you will spend 13 years around officers, expected to behave like one, measured against other officers, then serve as one... it helps to have a passion for it or a plan/goal on how you will use the USMA & officer experience to further your career. Much more than just "boost my resume".

I never said I was in it to boost my resume, and in fact said quite the opposite.

I know cadets not that different from you, but they have a plan. More than "go to USMA, 5 & dive, then magic occurs and I'm making 7 figures".

It usually involves a clear career path, advanced education, specific branches/duties, and internships/AIAD's along the way to position for that.

Maybe you have all that laid out, but you've not even hinted such.

I don't have it all laid out, but I have a drive to make something happen. Of course I have ideas about where to start, but I don't think anyone can plan out success. I could be wrong here.


Seven digit income would be top .3% of US incomes. Many of the people you seem intent to debate with here are in the top 1-2%, myself included.

So is 7 figure annual income by 28 realistic for you? Don't know. (But I'd be willing to place a bet) Even if you discount the non-working, what do you plan to do that would allow you to earn more than 95% of others, much less 99.7%? Especially if you chose the easier route bypassing USMA.

Seem intent to debate with? I haven't argued with a single person, and in fact thought I acted politely to everyone who took their valuable time to offer advice. All I can do at this point is observe and recognize than 99% of people don't read, meditate, workout, eat on a nutritional pattern, push themselves socially. Regardless, I do appreciate your wisdom- thank-you.
 
Mr. Positivity, Congratulations on your appointment as a CC to the USMA Class of 2018. You must be a remarkable young man to have achieved this. This is a very interesting discussion/post on the Service Academy Forums. There is a lot of information here. There is always angst with change and life altering decisions. You know yourself better than anyone else here. I wish you the best with your decision. My DS CC will get your back and I am sure you will for him if you report for R Day and persevere through Beast and Plebe year.

I have great parents who always push(ed) me to act with character. I am glad I created this post as it has given me reassurance; there is much wisdom on these forums and I am grateful for the advice imparted. I look forward to meeting your son and conquering BEAST:thumb:
 
53

My Dad was '52 and very hard core about honor, duty, country, and that what we have as individuals, was paid for by those who came before us, and honoring them is first of all our duties. Service to them, more than service to our Country, no matter what it costs us personally, we owe. His brother was shot at Bastogne. He went to Harvard Law. Made Millions. His oldest brother flew B-24's. Shot down 3 times. Harvard Business. Made millions. It is their service, not their millions, that their grandchildren respect.

Their Dad was gassed in WW I and died when mine was was 10. He thought that that physical/money rewards were secondary and a bi product of creating value for others. He also had great disdain for silver spoon kids. He had made a lot of money. So I wanted a car at 16.....so I worked 40 hours a week at Kentucky Fried Chicken and got one. My grades weren't great. 40th percentile. But I was not only a great chicken man. I was also a National Merit Scholar Finalist. I got lots of letters from schools that wanted NMSF's but the very first was from West Point. That got Dad off my back -;

I had a two foot steel bar put in my back at 16 and that was that. So no uniformed service for me. But the DNA is still there. The Military collects smart people who are innovative. I do a lot of stuff to help out. They pay me $1 dollar a year. (So they can hold my tickets). I am overpaid, and I hope they don't read these pages, because I would do this for free -;

Again, extremely appreciative of all your wisdom. I hope the tickets you are referring to are for football:thumb:
 
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