AROTC Downsizing

[Aglahad]

Thanks for the clarification.

Just so I am understanding correctly, are you saying that a MS4 cadet that passed LDAC, has a low but passing APFT, a low OML score, which leads to reserves not removal from ROTC, and poor scores as a TAC. Other then below average scores if these MS4 cadets were within the parameters of the contract they signed, they were still removed from the program. If any of these MS4 cadets or even MS3's were they required pay back scholarship if they were scholarship cadets even though they were fulfilling, albeit barely, the contract they signed.

Removing 20 cadets....that's a lot of fat to trim. I was surprised when my son's battalion let one cadet go, a MS1.

Well to be fair most of of the let gos were non scholarship underclassmen who had been for the most part competing for a couple on campus scholarships.These MS1s were not bad by any means but it was a simple,"Hey thanks for coming out but there just isn't any money". The MS 4s let go were the kicker especially since they had 4 year scholarships. I have to check my scholarship paperwok again, but I believe that even if a cadet makes minimum standards the ultimate yay or nay can come from the PMS for not upholding PMS he or she thinks as adequate officer standards.

 

[kinnem]

Well to be fair most of of the let gos were non scholarship underclassmen who had been for the most part competing for a couple on campus scholarships.These MS1s were not bad by any means but it was a simple,"Hey thanks for coming out but there just isn't any money". The MS 4s let go were the kicker especially since they had 4 year scholarships. I have to check my scholarship paperwok again, but I believe that even if a cadet makes minimum standards the ultimate yay or nay can come from the PMS for not upholding PMS he or she thinks as adequate officer standards.

Ouch. Please report back on the contract.

That sounds somewhat arbitrary and subjective to me if they are within parameters. But then if they were MS 4s I suppose they shouldn't be commissioned if they're not up to snuff given the coming RIF. I always think of Marist's signature line in situations like this.

I would assume in this case that they do not have to repay since its the Army terminating the contract.

 

[dunninla]

^ this is interesting. I had thought that an MSIV who has passed LDAC, APFT, acceptable GPA, is not a conduct case, etc. will, if in the opinion of the PMS not commissionable into Active Duty, then be forced into either Reserves or Guard. But dropped from the program (thus not commissionable into Reserves or Guard) is another level of severity.

1. Top 10%, Branch of Choice
2. Distinguished Military Graduate (Top 20%)
3. Above the Active Duty cutoff line (about top 60%, depending on year)
4. Below Active Duty cutoff, and forced into either Reserves or Guard (about 10-15% of cadets last year)
5. Dropped from the program as an MSIV

Level 5 is apparently new this year. This tells me that Reserves and Guard don't have room either for the bottom few %.

 

[Aglahad]

Ouch. Please report back on the contract.

That sounds somewhat arbitrary and subjective to me if they are within parameters. But then if they were MS 4s I suppose they shouldn't be commissioned if they're not up to snuff given the coming RIF. I always think of Marist's signature line in situations like this.

I would assume in this case that they do not have to repay since its the Army terminating the contract.

I still believe they have to pay back the amount owed to the army. From what Heard the main issue leading to their termination was consecutive semesters with bad grades.

On a side note I met a SPC at CTLT who branched reserve transportation and was kicked out apparently a day before commissioning or so he said.

Another MS IV will be gone within the month if he doesn't pass his PT test.

Moral of the story: Don't slack off even if you are branched and LDAC is in the rear view mirror.

 

[Jcleppe]

^ this is interesting. I had thought that an MSIV who has passed LDAC, APFT, acceptable GPA, is not a conduct case, etc. will, if in the opinion of the PMS not commissionable into Active Duty, then be forced into either Reserves or Guard. But dropped from the program (thus not commissionable into Reserves or Guard) is another level of severity.

1. Top 10%, Branch of Choice
2. Distinguished Military Graduate (Top 20%)
3. Above the Active Duty cutoff line (about top 60%, depending on year)
4. Below Active Duty cutoff, and forced into either Reserves or Guard (about 10-15% of cadets last year)
5. Dropped from the program as an MSIV

Level 5 is apparently new this year. This tells me that Reserves and Guard don't have room either for the bottom few %.

I don't think we are quite to the #5 you listed yet.

After a little clarification it looks like the MS4's dropped had issues with grades and the next MS4 in trouble has not passed the APFT.

In the past 4 years only one MS4 has been dropped from my son's battalion and that was due to a DUI he received during his senior year.

There are plenty of reasons a cadet can be let go, I'm not sure a PMS will broadcast to the entire battalion the reason, leaving some to wonder and assume various reasons.

If a cadet is on a scholarship and contracted, they meet every requirement outlined in the contract, attend all classes, labs, and training, and are let go due only to the PMS's decision, and then are required to pay back the scholarship. I would think there would be a line of military attorneys just waiting to take the case. Not being recommended for Active Duty is one thing, being kicked out is another.

Aglahad is spot on.....don't slack off your senior year, your not done until they pin the bars on.

 

[NorwichDad]

There are plenty of reasons a cadet can be let go, I'm not sure a PMS will broadcast to the entire battalion the reason, leaving some to wonder and assume various reasons.

This is what it is really about. Unless it makes the papers the reason will stay between the PMS and the cadet. They may tell their friends at school one thing but it really could be something else. All you can do is wish them well.

 

[Aglahad]

This is what it is really about. Unless it makes the papers the reason will stay between the PMS and the cadet. They may tell their friends at school one thing but it really could be something else. All you can do is wish them well.

Pretty much. One can speculate, talk to the dismissed cadet and formulate reasons yet in the end only the PMS and that cadet know. What I can tell you is that these cadets were sub par in their peers' eyes and it showed in tangible results. We all wondered why they were contracted in the first place.

 

[goaliedad]

Pretty much. One can speculate, talk to the dismissed cadet and formulate reasons yet in the end only the PMS and that cadet know. What I can tell you is that these cadets were sub par in their peers' eyes and it showed in tangible results. We all wondered why they were contracted in the first place.

Sounds like the memo about cleaning things up got through in time. If these characters were slacking in their responsibilities (GPA,APFT,etc.) the Army doesn't have the need for them as warm bodies any more.

As to the why they were contracted, unfortunately the military must meet its numbers and in difficult times, quality takes a back seat to quantity. Looks like the pendulum has swung back....

Thanks for your letting us know this is going on.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

Jcleppe - glad to hear the changes on your DSs' school won't impact DS2 too much. Will have my DS tune in to hear if anything is changing in his school(no other close AROTC programs to combine, but I'm learning anything is possible).

DS has heard that MS2 and 3s are being warned that contracts are not written in stone. A few MS2s were told by new PMS that they could be subject to disenrollment -- GPA,APFT issues. House cleaning is probably happening in a lot of AROTC programs.

Since I posted about DS's school having only 16 contracts to offer next fall for roughly 40 SMP/non-scholarship cadets, 10-12 cadets have dropped ROTC already. Most of these MS1 cadets were in the bottom of the OML and not willing to stay knowing the easy contracts were a thing of the past. DS is still in top 10 and is waiting to take end of quarter APFT, which will secure his spot for now. He is still struggling with the run - cold weather isn't his friend apparently and hopfully the mild Ohio winter will continue for a another week or two so it won't be 20 degrees when he runs. Thank goodness LDAC is in the summer

 

[goaliedad]

Jcleppe - glad to hear the changes on your DSs' school won't impact DS2 too much. Will have my DS tune in to hear if anything is changing in his school(no other close AROTC programs to combine, but I'm learning anything is possible).

DS has heard that MS2 and 3s are being warned that contracts are not written in stone. A few MS2s were told by new PMS that they could be subject to disenrollment -- GPA,APFT issues. House cleaning is probably happening in a lot of AROTC programs.

Since I posted about DS's school having only 16 contracts to offer next fall for roughly 40 SMP/non-scholarship cadets, 10-12 cadets have dropped ROTC already. Most of these MS1 cadets were in the bottom of the OML and not willing to stay knowing the easy contracts were a thing of the past. DS is still in top 10 and is waiting to take end of quarter APFT, which will secure his spot for now. He is still struggling with the run - cold weather isn't his friend apparently and hopfully the mild Ohio winter will continue for a another week or two so it won't be 20 degrees when he runs. Thank goodness LDAC is in the summer

At least you know who is up to the challenge...

You might want to tune into the Weather Channel... Nasty storm going across the upper plains heading your way IIRC. Not sure where your temps may get to though. Could be ugly.

 

[Marist College ROTC]

My son's battalion has a new PMS this year, when the PMS finishes his time at the school the battalion will lose it's Host status. The battalion will not get another PMS, they will get a Major.

This will be the case for many, but less than half, of the programs in our brigade. Transition will take 2-3 years.

 

[NorwichDad]

This will be the case for many, but less than half, of the programs in our brigade. Transition will take 2-3 years.

Marist,
I remember Robert Gates was pushing for opening ROTC at Ivys last summer. With the repeal of DADT the schools seemed warm to starting ROTC. Is there still talk of that?

Just wondering

 

[Marist College ROTC]

Marist,
I remember Robert Gates was pushing for opening ROTC at Ivys last summer. With the repeal of DADT the schools seemed warm to starting ROTC. Is there still talk of that?

Just wondering

Despite the overall reduction in recruiting efforts, some new initiatives will be funded and pursued. It appears that the Army will let the other services take the lead at the Ivys. The main Army push will most likely be to increase the number of Cadets from the major urban centers. There is currently a large effort to increase the NYC market and in doing so increase the Cadet presence at the CUNY campuses. I believe there is a similar initiative in Southern California.

 

[Jcleppe]

Despite the overall reduction in recruiting efforts, some new initiatives will be funded and pursued. It appears that the Army will let the other services take the lead at the Ivys. The main Army push will most likely be to increase the number of Cadets from the major urban centers. There is currently a large effort to increase the NYC market and in doing so increase the Cadet presence at the CUNY campuses. I believe there is a similar initiative in Southern California.

It's going to be very interesting to watch over the next couple years.

How will this impact the Southeast and the Northwest, not to mention the Central US. Will these areas see a decrease in ROTC enrollement and contracts. Do you think the Army will try to centralize the programs into these major urban areas leading to a decreased presence in other areas of the country. Do you think it would ever get to a point where if you wanted to participate in ROTC then you would need to go to a college in one of these urban clusters.

Sorry for so many hypothetical questions, your post just made my mind wonder a bit.

 

[Marist College ROTC]

It's going to be very interesting to watch over the next couple years.

How will this impact the Southeast and the Northwest, not to mention the Central US. Will these areas see a decrease in ROTC enrollement and contracts. Do you think the Army will try to centralize the programs into these major urban areas leading to a decreased presence in other areas of the country. Do you think it would ever get to a point where if you wanted to participate in ROTC then you would need to go to a college in one of these urban clusters.

Sorry for so many hypothetical questions, your post just made my mind wonder a bit.

I don't believe you will see anything more than a marginal decrease in the number of Cadets coming from areas that have traditionally outpunched their weight. The efforts I am talking about are part of a drive to get ROTC to look more like the overall population. The impact in the underserved urban areas will be significant. The decrease in numbers from other areas necessary to allow the growth in urban areas will be spread across all of the programs. The impact on any one program should be marginal.

 

[Pima]

Interesting post Marist.

The efforts I am talking about are part of a drive to get ROTC to look more like the overall population. The impact in the underserved urban areas will be significant.

I agree with you because if you look at the SA's diversity has been their drive currently, and as you stated a lot has to do with underserved urban areas.

 

[bgrant94]

What do you mean by undeserved urban areas? Are you saying that just because I live in an area with low poor education systems and low income families that we are undeserving of more opportunities to receive the higher education that so many of us dream of but can rarely, truly afford? Why should people who HAPPEN to live in a better place that HAPPENS to have great programs and opportunities and HAPPENS to be surrounded by more people with the same personal/system established educational standards be provided even more opportunities? I only heard about the ROTC college program because I my enlisted Marine cousin went back for his degree and to become an officer at Georgia Tech. Of course though, I could have completely misinterpreted that so if I have I apologize for getting on my soap box. It just bugs me that because of my location I have to deal with an incompetent school system(to be fair I've had some awesome and difficult teachers within that system) and me and so many of my peers have lost out on opportunities we didn't even know existed.
On a side note this site is such a great source of information, I have 4 younger siblings so I'm going to push for them to take advantage of so many of the opportunities I never new about

 

[Pima]

You have mis-read it completely.

You read undeserving.

Marist stated undeRserved.

Too big differences. Easy mistake from reading fast. Been there, done that have more checks in that square than I have fingers or toes!

What you discussed in your life is why it has become a push in the military.

 

[dunninla]

Despite the overall reduction in recruiting efforts, some new initiatives will be funded and pursued. It appears that the Army will let the other services take the lead at the Ivys. The main Army push will most likely be to increase the number of Cadets from the major urban centers. There is currently a large effort to increase the NYC market and in doing so increase the Cadet presence at the CUNY campuses. I believe there is a similar initiative in Southern California.

Perhaps so. When my DD checked out the UCLA Battalion, she was surprised to find the vast majority of the Battalion members were actually studying at crosstown Cal State Northridge, which has its own PT, Labs, and Classes, with the UCLA Battalion PMS having offices on both campuses. In other words, the tail is wagging the dog in LA, as far as prestige of the host college is concerned.. There really isn't a huge difference in cost -- tuition+fees at UCLA are about $12,500, while at Cal St. Northridge about $7,000. For some reason the ROTC program has become quite popular and more than tripled in size at the CSUN campus over the past five years whereas it has remained the same size on the UCLA campus.

 

[bgrant94]

Oh OK then, I apologize Pima. I was hoping that that wasn't what you were saying because I've met people with that mindset and it really ticks me off, but I've read a lot of your posts and have come to respect you (even though this is all completely anonymous lol), so I was a little surprised by what I thought you said