Luigi59
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2007
- Messages
- 4,566
What are the "minimum requirements"?
FWIW - USNA is on record as saying that they have no "standard cut-off or minimum SAT for anyone."
Is the same true for USAFA?
Best way to get into USAFA
- Thread starter dpt135
- Start date
What are the "minimum requirements"?
FWIW - USNA is on record as saying that they have no "standard cut-off or minimum SAT for anyone."
Is the same true for USAFA?
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
- Messages
- 6,193
Luigi,
Yes, there is a "minimum" for both the SAT and ACT. I am not sure I am able to post it here as I'm not sure it's "for public dissemination." I will check on this, for everyone's benefit.
But the answer is "yes" there is a standard that must be met for USAFA.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
USAFA_2012
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2011
- Messages
- 29
yea, there is definitely a double standard for IC's, and not just for the application process.
example:
freshman IC's can't get trained in the morning because it breaks their training cycle, as outlined by NCAA rules.
BUT cadets have to pay, out of their own pockets, for football season tickets and we are mandated to go to the home games. according to NCAA rules, a school can do one or the other -- but not both.
double standard? i think yes.
however, i still proudly say GO AIR FORCE SINK NAVY!!!
example:
freshman IC's can't get trained in the morning because it breaks their training cycle, as outlined by NCAA rules.
BUT cadets have to pay, out of their own pockets, for football season tickets and we are mandated to go to the home games. according to NCAA rules, a school can do one or the other -- but not both.
double standard? i think yes.
however, i still proudly say GO AIR FORCE SINK NAVY!!!
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
- Messages
- 6,193
Everyone,
I contacted my "REALLY BIG BOSS" at USAFA and asked what I could say without causing any issues.
"USAFA has a set standard "minimum guideline" that is reviewed by the Admissions Directorate quite often. It is not published as its considered For Official Use Only as it pertains to admissions."
Those are my words, with some guidance from "THE BOSS" and after our conversation.
Please don't try to parse, second-guess, etc., what USAFA is trying to say here...it's just their process.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,382
I appreciate your concern. But I didn't start the thread, and I'm not the one looking for answers. Numerous people gave answers. For one reason or another, answers given have not been accepted and there are still doubts. Considering that this topic, in one form or another, has appeared more times than probably any other topic; (Especially at this time of the year); the only way certain individuals are going to get the answers they are looking for, is to go directly to the source. Flieger has suggested that instead of debating the validity of the answers you are being given, that you contact Dr. Mueh directly. I concur. That is the only way that some people are going to get a satisfactory answer.
And no, my response was not a "Left Field" response to a question concerning D1 athletes. It was completely on target. Everything about the appointment process revolves around diversity; which translates to equal representation. (To the best of the academy's ability). So no matter if we're talking about "Principal Nominees" who are guaranteed an appointment (Assuming they are qualified), whether the academy agrees or not that they are the most qualified; or we're talking about any other category of diversity; e.g. race, economics, athletics, life experiences, etc... There will ALWAYS be those who don't think it's fare that someone received consideration in the application process in an area(s) that others are not privy to being able to participate it. The academy's are in the position where this is necessary; whether you agree or not. That's because partly of the law, and because of the diversity of the men and women that these academy cadets will some day be leading.
Attributes of a good SA candidate? What the academies are attempting to instill in their students in order to make them good officers? Attributes of a good officer? What a blue chip athlete brings to a SA? All of the above? Actually, I copied this from a website assisting NCAA student/athletes on how to fill out their resumes. A blue chip athlete with better than the minimum SA academic standards will, as he/she should, receive WPM/WCS points for the assumed or actual mastery of the above areas. They are what the academies are looking for in identifying and training young officers. That is the sole purpose of the WCS/WPM system. He has demonstrated the above skills in order to achieve his blue chip level of skills. Acknowledging it in the Admissions process will make him competitive for admission without any other outside 'assistance'.
At least this is how USNA addresses the issue. Not sure about AFA but cannot imagine it being a whole lot different.
Actually, I have several BGO interviews coming up in the next few weeks. I could use the above quote as a checklist and get a pretty good feel for each candidate's suitability.
Last edited:
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,382
Mongo; very good post. I especially think your last paragraph would indeed be a very enlightening checklist for all candidates during the ALO/BGO interview.
Special consideration for non-Blue Chip athletes at AFA
Steve & Mike,
Thank you for your insight and answers. I made a statement about team athletes (non-recruits and Blue Chips) receiving priority/extra points/special consideration in the application process and this led to some good conversation. (I came to this conclusion based on the high percentage of D1 players at the AFA.) Obviously, Blue Chips receive special consideration for their special skill set.
Steve, you’ve stated that non-Blue Chips (other athletes coming out of D-1 sports in high school) receive no special consideration in the application process; while Mike, you’ve stated that they receive some diversity points. (I’m assuming that athletes who competed in lower divisions in high school sports do not receive these diversity points.)
From your comment, Steve, I now know that the process is revised yearly (“Colonel Benyshek and Dr. "Phil" PhD.... are the people that determine what the selection process will be each year…”)
Again, thank you both for your responses.
Steve & Mike,
Thank you for your insight and answers. I made a statement about team athletes (non-recruits and Blue Chips) receiving priority/extra points/special consideration in the application process and this led to some good conversation. (I came to this conclusion based on the high percentage of D1 players at the AFA.) Obviously, Blue Chips receive special consideration for their special skill set.
Steve, you’ve stated that non-Blue Chips (other athletes coming out of D-1 sports in high school) receive no special consideration in the application process; while Mike, you’ve stated that they receive some diversity points. (I’m assuming that athletes who competed in lower divisions in high school sports do not receive these diversity points.)
From your comment, Steve, I now know that the process is revised yearly (“Colonel Benyshek and Dr. "Phil" PhD.... are the people that determine what the selection process will be each year…”)
Again, thank you both for your responses.
I vowed I would not comment anymore on this thread but here it goes:
Steve and CC - Great help, advice and observations throughout!
Also look at class profile when asking the question about athletics. Majority of the cadets were athletes in high school. Yes some recruited but some were not. Athletics teaches you so many skills that are a benefit as a cadet at the accademy.
Lastly we were at a parents club mtg a month ago and learned, in addition to other areas such as additional quality letters of recommendations, athletics, vision, and diversity (what sets you apart from the person next to you, not traditional diversity definition) are 3 additional areas that add points or puts you in a better position for consideration.
As others have stated, there is no magic bullet so do the best you can in your position. Share every detail of experience, leadership and ability then sit back and see if you have truly done your best. If the answer is yes then you have done all you can but if the answer is no try harder. Keep your eye on the future and work as hard as you have ever worked for something understanding that this is a wonderful opportunity for those that truly seek it!
Best of Luck!
Steve and CC - Great help, advice and observations throughout!
Also look at class profile when asking the question about athletics. Majority of the cadets were athletes in high school. Yes some recruited but some were not. Athletics teaches you so many skills that are a benefit as a cadet at the accademy.
Lastly we were at a parents club mtg a month ago and learned, in addition to other areas such as additional quality letters of recommendations, athletics, vision, and diversity (what sets you apart from the person next to you, not traditional diversity definition) are 3 additional areas that add points or puts you in a better position for consideration.
As others have stated, there is no magic bullet so do the best you can in your position. Share every detail of experience, leadership and ability then sit back and see if you have truly done your best. If the answer is yes then you have done all you can but if the answer is no try harder. Keep your eye on the future and work as hard as you have ever worked for something understanding that this is a wonderful opportunity for those that truly seek it!
Best of Luck!
Last edited:
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,382
gotoplay2; I think I have found the verbiage that may be causing part of the confusion. Words such as "points" can be misleading. As Karek so eloquently just said, and as all of us know, the academy looks at the "Whole Person" concept when they evaluate your application.
I.e. If 2 individuals took Calc II in high school, should they receive the same exact amount of "Points" by the academy if they received the same exact grade??? The answer is: "It depends". If Calc II was the HIGHEST math class available to one student, and they therefor took the most challenging class available to them, that would mean something different than the other student whereby they may have had AP or IB math classes available that were higher level than Calc II, but they chose NOT to take those. So it's the WHOLE person that the academy is looking at.
In other words, don't look at POINTS as if it was: 10 points for boy scouts, additional 5 for eagle scout, 5 points for band, 15 point for boy's state, 12 points for football, 7 for track and field, etc.... It doesn't work that way. There isn't a check list whereby you fill out certain blocks and they give you "X" amount of points for each block. It's the WHOLE PERSON concept. They look at what was available to you; what you accomplished; how well you accomplished it; the amount of classes, tasks, extra curriculum, time volunteering, working, leadership, athletics, etc... and they make an INDIVIDUAL SCORE FOR YOU!!! That is the hardest part of this. It can be subjective, but it's the more fair method. How else to you compare 2 students who are applying, who come from 2 totally different environments. One is public/private school, every sport available, every academic class available, where the local tax base gives them every opportunity to excel, etc... with the student who has 3 AP classes available, no IB program, no large team sports like football, baseball, soccer, etc..., who doesn't have a lot of volunteering because the local school district is lower income and have to work all the time to assist their family, etc...
So when I say that a D1 level athlete coming out of high school gets "points" compared to the person who does sports but not at the quality level of D1 potential athletes, that's like comparing an individual who took AP/IB classes to those who had them available and didn't take them or didn't succeed at them. Or the same as you compare the individual who was such a standout that they were chosen to attend boy's state compared to the person who didn't have the same level of leadership experience. Or like you compare an Eagle scout to the individual who was simply a boy scout. Or the person who achieved a Mitchell award in Civil Air Patrol compared to the individual who was simply "IN" CAP. So yes, the D1 potential star athlete applicant in high school will probably be given a higher consideration in areas such as physical fitness, team activities, some leadership, being able to balance their lives with school/sports/family, (Notice how MOST ALO's ask questions similar to how you juggle and balance your life), etc... There are many areas of a person's application where a D1 level potential athlete applying from high school could gain some additional consideration.
But the academy is not lowering their standards for these applicants because they want their D1 athletes for their sports teams. This is not the academy's primary goal. When you see coaches refusing to allow athletes to practice, compete for a starting position, etc... because they are requiring them to work on their academics; this shows that the academy's primary goal is to produce military officers and leaders. So don't look at giving consideration or points to a D1 level athlete applicant as some "SCORE" where there's physical points. It's simply a part of the "Whole Person" application that the academy is looking at. There are plenty of individuals who have had a LACK OF ATHLETICS offset by very high academics, test scores, volunteer time, leadership, etc... Just like there are those who have had a LACK of CLUBS/Leadership and below average academic scores offset by very high levels of athletics. And remember, there is always an AVERAGE. You can't have everyone coming into the academy with a 4.0gpa. Some of those 4.0's will have nothing else. No volunteering, no working, no sports, no physical fitness, no leadership, etc...On the other hand, there are some 3.50 who have MORE leadership, MORE extra curricular, MORE volunteering, MORE athletics, MORE work experience, MORE Team involvement, etc... than many of the 4.0gpa brainiacs. That's why it's the WHOLE PERSON concept.
I.e. If 2 individuals took Calc II in high school, should they receive the same exact amount of "Points" by the academy if they received the same exact grade??? The answer is: "It depends". If Calc II was the HIGHEST math class available to one student, and they therefor took the most challenging class available to them, that would mean something different than the other student whereby they may have had AP or IB math classes available that were higher level than Calc II, but they chose NOT to take those. So it's the WHOLE person that the academy is looking at.
In other words, don't look at POINTS as if it was: 10 points for boy scouts, additional 5 for eagle scout, 5 points for band, 15 point for boy's state, 12 points for football, 7 for track and field, etc.... It doesn't work that way. There isn't a check list whereby you fill out certain blocks and they give you "X" amount of points for each block. It's the WHOLE PERSON concept. They look at what was available to you; what you accomplished; how well you accomplished it; the amount of classes, tasks, extra curriculum, time volunteering, working, leadership, athletics, etc... and they make an INDIVIDUAL SCORE FOR YOU!!! That is the hardest part of this. It can be subjective, but it's the more fair method. How else to you compare 2 students who are applying, who come from 2 totally different environments. One is public/private school, every sport available, every academic class available, where the local tax base gives them every opportunity to excel, etc... with the student who has 3 AP classes available, no IB program, no large team sports like football, baseball, soccer, etc..., who doesn't have a lot of volunteering because the local school district is lower income and have to work all the time to assist their family, etc...
So when I say that a D1 level athlete coming out of high school gets "points" compared to the person who does sports but not at the quality level of D1 potential athletes, that's like comparing an individual who took AP/IB classes to those who had them available and didn't take them or didn't succeed at them. Or the same as you compare the individual who was such a standout that they were chosen to attend boy's state compared to the person who didn't have the same level of leadership experience. Or like you compare an Eagle scout to the individual who was simply a boy scout. Or the person who achieved a Mitchell award in Civil Air Patrol compared to the individual who was simply "IN" CAP. So yes, the D1 potential star athlete applicant in high school will probably be given a higher consideration in areas such as physical fitness, team activities, some leadership, being able to balance their lives with school/sports/family, (Notice how MOST ALO's ask questions similar to how you juggle and balance your life), etc... There are many areas of a person's application where a D1 level potential athlete applying from high school could gain some additional consideration.
But the academy is not lowering their standards for these applicants because they want their D1 athletes for their sports teams. This is not the academy's primary goal. When you see coaches refusing to allow athletes to practice, compete for a starting position, etc... because they are requiring them to work on their academics; this shows that the academy's primary goal is to produce military officers and leaders. So don't look at giving consideration or points to a D1 level athlete applicant as some "SCORE" where there's physical points. It's simply a part of the "Whole Person" application that the academy is looking at. There are plenty of individuals who have had a LACK OF ATHLETICS offset by very high academics, test scores, volunteer time, leadership, etc... Just like there are those who have had a LACK of CLUBS/Leadership and below average academic scores offset by very high levels of athletics. And remember, there is always an AVERAGE. You can't have everyone coming into the academy with a 4.0gpa. Some of those 4.0's will have nothing else. No volunteering, no working, no sports, no physical fitness, no leadership, etc...On the other hand, there are some 3.50 who have MORE leadership, MORE extra curricular, MORE volunteering, MORE athletics, MORE work experience, MORE Team involvement, etc... than many of the 4.0gpa brainiacs. That's why it's the WHOLE PERSON concept.
As both a participant and a moderator I'm in a difficult position with this thread. I think this is a valuable topic to discuss, when it's kept accurate and non-personal, but I fear it's coming close to veering off-track due to some personal frustrations with the system.
BUT...as a participant and as an ALO, I need to step in and make a couple comments regarding some statements made here.
Gotoplay2...I normally won't "pick" at any comments if I can avoid it, but in this case, I can't. Your facts are simply wrong. I will cut/paste a quote from you: Current applicants should know that it's not just about "working your !!! off" - don't think for a minute that you have a good chance of getting in. As of this year... If there's only one spot open w/your MOC and you're in a state that only gives one nom - you may be competing with a prep school candidate who is guaranteed that one spot. If you don't get an LOA early on - (DS had a pulled muscle and couldn't take the CFA until Nov.) you have virtually no chance of being offered an appointment. I think those getting their hopes up should know that this is the way things are now. Even with a class of 1050 - The Academy must keep their diversity situation in check and the recruited athletes will get their appointments.
Okay...where do I begin?
First...there were only approximately 10% of appointments given out by LOA according to USAFA/RRS. That's the selections division of the office of the Director of Admissions. So the statement "...if you dn't get an LOA early on you have virtually no chance of being offered an appointment..." is wrong.
Second...your comment about the MOC and numbers of appointments/nominations, etc., really isn't accurate. A MOC is afforded 10 nominations per opening at each SA. By law an MOC may only have 5 "charged" appointees at any SA at any time. If your MOC has 1 opening, then they will be allowed to nominate 10 candidates. One of those candidates will be selected (unless in the extremely rare case, none of the candidates meet the legal requirements for admission) and will be "charged" to that MOC. The other 9 candidates will, as CC stated, go into the "qualified alternates" pool. USAFA, pretty much like all the other SA's (can't speak for USCGA) draw almost half of their incoming class from this pool. Perfect example: Senator Jon Kyl of AZ nominated 20 students @ 2004 to fill his 2 openings. At the end of the admissions process, his 2 charged appointments were filled HOWEVER 12 other candidates of his 18 remaining were offered appointments to USAFA! He had 14 appointments out of 20 nominee's! (We AZ ALO's received a very nice letter of appreciation from Sen Kyl).
Third...I can fully appreciate your frustration in your DS not receiving an appointment. Trust me, having been the recipient myself of a "QNV" letter, I know exactly what that feels like and how crushing it can be. But let me say a couple things after that. First...it's not the end of the world. I chose to attend a prep school after HS and I was able to raise my SAT's to rather lofty levels and that was the "tip over the edge" in my case. I was accepted to USAFA my second try. Second...your DS is NOT ALONE this year. While it won't make him or you feel any better, there are quite a few candidates that scored higher than your DS that didn't receive an appointment...we didn't get him or them into USAFA, and that's our loss.
FYI...I had 11 candidates this cycle; 5 would be mirror images of your DS (yes, I'm serious, including one valedictorian of a school class of 900 students) I was CERTAIN that all 5 would be offered appointments.
WRONG.
As of tonight...only one (1) has an appointment (not the valedictorian). In my 17 years as an ALO, this cycle was the most brutal for the candidates that I have ever seen. Because we made offers to (my numbers, I haven't seen USAFA/RRS' official results yet) approximately 18% fewer candidates, the competition was beyond brutal, it was...well, I'm not sure I have a word that fits it.
Fourth (and last)...you commented "...The Academy must keep their diversity situation in check and the recruited athletes will get their appointments." Yes, this is true but...and this is a biggie, the total number of recruited athletes receiving appointments isn't overwhelming and realize that those that go directly to USAFA had to meet the entrance requirements. I'm not going to blow smoke at you and say they also had to "beat" the other candidates...that'd be untrue. HIGHLY recruited athletes...what can I say? I'm one of those rare AF types that thinks the academy shouldn't focus that much on athletics (IC type) and instead should focus on turning out the finest AF officers...but that's a different soapbox.
Bottom line re: athletic recruiting? It is what it is...its not going to change anytime soon.
Diversity you also mentioned. Please understand that USAFA's definition of Diversity isn't what most folks think. It's not a "can't be a white anglo saxon male" issue. It's about the individuals situation in life; all encompassing. It may be a minority member, or not, that's not the key issue; their "situation" is. The eldest child in a single parent household with siblings who works after school at a job to help keep a roof over the family's heads, helping with their siblings while that single parent works 2 jobs, etc...THAT is a diversity candidate that we want to meet and if they meet the criteria, they are the ones that we want to bring to the MILITARY, not just USAFA. We want to give them the opportunity to achieve...but their situation in life may not afford them the opportunity to try.
I could go on and on on this topic but...
I feel your pain and frustration, I truly do. The fact I've been there, all the more so. But...realize that your facts just aren't completely accurate. And that's what we need to make sure we give to all the members here: facts as accurate as we can so they can make good decisions. And next year...it's going to be as hard or even more so as the incoming class will probably be only on the order of 1050.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
