Changes to SA Nominations

GrilledCheese94 said:
Can you tell I’m bored at work?

I’m trying to wrap my head around various ways that the entire SA & ROTC process could be done more efficiently.

An exercise in futility, but I have time to kill.

Building a better mousetrap isn’t one of Uncle Sam’s specialities, unfortunately!
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After working in civilian and government jobs for decades, I believe any process needs improvement; tweaking or revision for more efficiency As far as the nomination process, the efficiency depends on the MOC office. They are given guidelines and the ability to handle their nomination process with some latitude. That process will work if MOC office is dedicated to the applicants. It looks like you got from enlisted to Academy graduate and that’s not an easy path, so it seems it worked. Each year after I completed a nomination process, I did a thorough review and looked for ways to improve. Nothing is perfect and there’s always room for that better mousetrap. The Academies appointment process is very complex. So many factors go into it to find that whole person nominee for an offer of appointment. It’s not just academics; it’s fitness; it’s leadership; it’s commitment. It may not be perfect, but every year the Academies graduate scores of fine officers ready to lead and serve our country. Kudos to each of them.
 
GrilledCheese94 said:
Can you tell I’m bored at work?

I’m trying to wrap my head around various ways that the entire SA & ROTC process could be done more efficiently.

An exercise in futility, but I have time to kill.

Building a better mousetrap isn’t one of Uncle Sam’s specialities, unfortunately!
Click to expand...
May I offer 🍿or suggest a trip to the Bacon, Cocktail or Pet threads?
 
usna1985 said:
My guess is this is Congress trying to keep more constituents happy. Since the size of the SAs isn't changing, the number of appointees isn't changing. Thus, having more nominees just means more people will be in the running up front and more will receive turndowns at the end.
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I am having the same thoughts.

Next spring, mathematically, more fully qualified people with noms will be wondering why they were not offered an appointment. And the extra slate resolution time required for a bigger slate will extend the process.
 
Capt MJ said:
I am having the same thoughts.

Next spring, mathematically, more fully qualified people with noms will be wondering why they were not offered an appointment. And the extra slate resolution time required for a bigger slate will extend the process.
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That may be true, but some sort of change needs to happen with how this process works. Your geographic location should not be such a huge determining factor on your ability to compete for a SA appointment. It’s an antiquated system, and simply is not ideal in modern times.
 
Coast Guard seems to get along fine without noms, and I am sure they pay attention to drawing across a wide geographic base. I don’t have a life-size picture of Congress giving up this particular power anytime soon. I suspect the other SAs would not lose sleep if the system evaporated.
 
USMC Crayons said:
That may be true, but some sort of change needs to happen with how this process works. Your geographic location should not be such a huge determining factor on your ability to compete for a SA appointment. It’s an antiquated system, and simply is not ideal in modern times.
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Neither should so many other factors, out of the control of the candidates.
 
That may be true, but some sort of change needs to happen with how this process works. Your geographic location should not be such a huge determining factor on your ability to compete for a SA appointment. It’s an antiquated system, and simply is not ideal in modern times.
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This process was created by Congress. They obviously see that it benefits them, which is why they don't change it.
 
If the current system of requiring the class to be spread across the country by MOC Nomination is antiquated? How does anyone propose a system that gives a potential candidate a fair chance who might live in the middle of no where, USA? I've seen alot of complaints about competitive districts not getting enough appointments ( all of which seem to be people who live in these districts), but I don't see many comments or concerns about making sure potential candidates that don't live on the coasts having the same equal chance at a appointment.

Yes the USCGA has no nominations, but there entire school size is less then one class of the other academies. By definition of size they are already more selective since they have so few spots every year. There are also so small that Congress doesn't care about them which is why the no nominations decision was likely made. The demand for application to these schools is also much lower than the other academies. Not saying they are not amazing. It is just fact that the demand is much lower.

USAFA, USNA, and USMA are considered the prominent academy's in the country ; therefore, I think it is important that the entire country is represented each class at these academies. Without some constraints of the amount of candidates from one area to these academies, I have no doubt that there would be a move to only look at these competitive districts and start to ignore other parts of the country. Now I am not saying it will be a diliberate, sinister, or purposeful move. It will likely be small subconscious decisions made that would promote the coasts and place disadvantages for other areas. Shouldn't the district in Middle of No Where, USA have a EQUAL shot of appointments as candidates at Maryland, DC, San Diego, etc?

I'm not saying that MOC's having the nomination control is the best system. I am a firm beleiver that politicians will make 100 bad decisions for every good decision, but no one has come up with a idea that completes the mission as it is done today in a better way. Atleast I have not seen one on this thread that doesn't disporprtionaly support competitive districts more than the rest of the country.
 
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Capt MJ said:
USMMA is required to use the nomination system.

3. Apply for a Nomination | U.S. Merchant Marine Academy

Applicants must be nominated to the Academy by a U.S. Representative or U.S. Senator from your State of Residence/Domicile. An applicant does not have to reside in the same Congressional District as his/her nominator (a Member of the U.S.
www.usmma.edu
https://www.serviceacademyforums.co...te-update-with-their-entry.91890/post-1030387
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My apologies for inadvertently including them in the no nom mention in my post. I have edited my post to correct it.
 
Ihavenoidea said:
If the current system of requiring the class to be spread across the country by MOC Nomination is antiquated? How does anyone propose a system that gives a potential candidate a fair chance who might live in the middle of no where, USA? I've seen alot of complaints about competitive districts not getting enough appointments ( all of which seem to be people who live in these districts), but I don't see many comments or concerns about making sure potential candidates that don't live on the coasts having the same equal chance at a appointment.

Yes the USCGA and USMMA has no nominations, but there entire school size is less then one class of the other academies. By definition of size they are already more selective since they have so few spots every year. There are also so small that Congress doesn't care about them which is why the no nominations decision was likely made. The demand for application to these schools is also much lower than the other academies. Not saying they are not amazing. It is just fact that the demand is much lower.

USAFA, USNA, and USMA are considered the prominent academy's in the country ; therefore, I think it is important that the entire country is represented each class at these academies. Without some constraints of the amount of candidates from one area to these academies, I have no doubt that there would be a move to only look at these competitive districts and start to ignore other parts of the country. Now I am not saying it will be a diliberate, sinister, or purposeful move. It will likely be small subconscious decisions made that would promote the coasts and place disadvantages for other areas. Shouldn't the district in Middle of No Where, USA have a EQUAL shot of appointments as candidates at Maryland, DC, San Diego, etc?

I'm not saying that MOC's having the nomination control is the best system. I am a firm beleiver that politicians will make 100 bad decisions for every good decision, but no one has come up with a idea that completes the mission as it is done today in a better way. Atleast I have not seen one on this thread that doesn't disporprtionaly support competitive districts more than the rest of the country.
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Like many other things in life, the choice of how to manage the selection process for the Service Academies is a COMPROMISE.

In the modern era here in the US, we are obsessed with fairness especially in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion and here, I'm not just speaking
about race/ethnicity but also place of birth/origin.

From a MILTARY STANDPOINT, and I'm talking about recruiting the most effective military force that will, in the case of the Service Academies,
provide the absolute best leaders, pilots, submarine drivers, mariners, etc to lead our forces and nation.

The COMPROMISE here is how to combine the two in a way that maximizes the latter while still trying to achieve the former. Is it FAIR that
an applicant from Flyspeck, Wyoming has a Whole Person Multiple that is lower because she does not get the advanced classes that
BigTown, Virginia offers and her school does not do SAT prep nor offer gym class after 9th grade? Probably not but conversely, the need for
advanced math proficiency UPON ARRIVAL at USNA drives a lot of the admissions decision space. Conversely, that same applicant
from Flyspeck, Wyoming might be the only applicant from her congressional district while the applicant in BigTown, Virginia might have
ten applicants in just their high school and all with advanced math, AP science, etc.

I don't claim to be an admissions insider by any means but my take is that if we did away with the entire MOC nomination process,
we would see a LOT MORE kids from the "Bigtown, State" (very competitive) areas and a lot fewer from places like Flyspeck, Wyoming
and for that matter Bismarck, North Dakota (home of my classmate, former USNA Supe Jeff Fowler).

We have an imperfect system but I don't see a better way to balance military need with geographic as well as general diversity.
 
The top civilian schools try and get geographic diversity too for their classes. My school would always publish stats each year about how many states and countries the incoming class represented. Usually, it was like 48-50 states represented each year + DC at my school
 
OldRetSWO said:
Like many other things in life, the choice of how to manage the selection process for the Service Academies is a COMPROMISE.

In the modern era here in the US, we are obsessed with fairness especially in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion and here, I'm not just speaking
about race/ethnicity but also place of birth/origin.

From a MILTARY STANDPOINT, and I'm talking about recruiting the most effective military force that will, in the case of the Service Academies,
provide the absolute best leaders, pilots, submarine drivers, mariners, etc to lead our forces and nation.

The COMPROMISE here is how to combine the two in a way that maximizes the latter while still trying to achieve the former. Is it FAIR that
an applicant from Flyspeck, Wyoming has a Whole Person Multiple that is lower because she does not get the advanced classes that
BigTown, Virginia offers and her school does not do SAT prep nor offer gym class after 9th grade? Probably not but conversely, the need for
advanced math proficiency UPON ARRIVAL at USNA drives a lot of the admissions decision space. Conversely, that same applicant
from Flyspeck, Wyoming might be the only applicant from her congressional district while the applicant in BigTown, Virginia might have
ten applicants in just their high school and all with advanced math, AP science, etc.

I don't claim to be an admissions insider by any means but my take is that if we did away with the entire MOC nomination process,
we would see a LOT MORE kids from the "Bigtown, State" (very competitive) areas and a lot fewer from places like Flyspeck, Wyoming
and for that matter Bismarck, North Dakota (home of my classmate, former USNA Supe Jeff Fowler).

We have an imperfect system but I don't see a better way to balance military need with geographic as well as general diversity.
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Except that USCGA does not use MOC nominations and they do just fine in achieving geographic diversity.

What needs to go away is the principal nomination and ranked slate concept. Just nominate the top 10 (or 15, now) candidates in the jurisdiction for each SA and let Admissions rank them.
 
Ivy22 said:
The top civilian schools try and get geographic diversity too for their classes. My school would always publish stats each year about how many states and countries the incoming class represented. Usually, it was like 48-50 states represented each year + DC at my school
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I'm not disagreeing with you, but if you have 100 Freshman from NY, and 1 from Idaho. Is Idaho really being represented? Not saying that is how it is at your school, but those published stats are often more for marketing and admissions rather than showing active attempts to make a class geographically diverse.

Besides, we are not talking about private universities. We are talking about a academy funded by public money. All of the states should have a chance at appointments since they are paying for the academy.
 
Due to population, which determines the number of each state’s members of Congress, some states will automatically have far fewer, or many more, admitted to academies that use nominations. That already makes it fair.
 
Iwutke said:
Due to population, which determines the number of each state’s members of Congress, some states will automatically have far fewer, or many more, admitted to academies that use nominations. That already makes it fair.
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I agree that is the case now and I am fine with that, but some have mentioned the desire that more competitive districts have more appointments. These districts are in highly populated areas, so my question above was how do you allow more appointments in competitive districts without eliminating realistic geographical diversity? Remember that the class sizes are capped because of infrastructure limitations, so just adding more appointments is not feasible. So how are you not taking away appointments from other districts to feed the competitive districts?
 
Kentucky9 said:
Neither should so many other factors, out of the control of the candidate.
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Such as? Yes, you can't control everything (or possibly anything), but if you only have access to MOC and VP nominations as a direct entry out of HS, your chances are virtually zero in many districts. That's not an equitable solution for a half-million dollar taxpayer funded education.
 
Ihavenoidea said:
I'm not disagreeing with you, but if you have 100 Freshman from NY, and 1 from Idaho. Is Idaho really being represented? Not saying that is how it is at your school, but those published stats are often more for marketing and admissions rather than showing active attempts to make a class geographically diverse.

Besides, we are not talking about private universities. We are talking about an academy funded by public money. All of the states should have a chance at appointments since they are paying for the academy.
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Wyoming has 1 representative in the House and California has 52 currently due to population. Is Wyoming not represented because they only have 1?
 
In fact, in California, it’s one Representative for every 750,000 people. Wyoming on the other hand has 1 Representative per 580,000 people.
 
Nytoga330 said:
Seems promising for competitive districts. Our district only allows you to request one academy. Seems like instead of nominating 5 more to the slate, moc’s would maybe allow more than one academy requested.
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For me (in MD) going through the process right now, both senators only allow a request to one academy, but my representative allows me to rank them for preference
 
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