Deciding to Affirm/Leave USMA Advice

CA_hopeful

CA_hopeful

5-Year Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
80
I used to live on this forum in high school. (Which I DO NOT recommend--enjoy high school and quit the extracurriculars you are only doing for resume points! Just work hard at the things you are genuinely passionate about, get good grades, and be kind and you will do great. But that's not what this post is about...anyway) Now, three years after my R-day and a year since I decided to not Affirm, I want to give cadet candidates and current cadets my perspective on how to approach and ultimately make this decision. When I was deciding last fall, I scoured every corner of the internet (including this forum) for stories from former cadets and found very little. Hopefully my story can help others as they struggle through the decision for themselves.

My main points are:
1. leaving is not failure
2. treat your decision to Affirm as completely separate from deciding to show up on R-day
3. DON'T let the effort you put into your application sway your decision (aka the sunk cost fallacy)
4. DO take into consideration the practical difficulties of transferring/switching career paths

My full spiel is posted on my blog at: https://laurab.blog/posts/Leaving-West-Point

I plan on making a later post about the practical technicalities involved with the transfer application process. Let me know if you have further questions and I'd be happy to discuss further/elaborate on the nitty-gritties.
 
DDmom said:
so you basically took a gap year to apply to colleges?
Click to expand...

That is correct. I did not apply to schools during my yuk year because I was pretty sure I would affirm. It was not until July that I finally did the soul-searching and pro-con lists and goal trees that resulted in me making the decision to leave. The gap year was not ideal because I was stressed about my future for the vast majority of it. If a cadet is considering leaving I would recommend that they apply during their yuk year, so they have all of their options on the table before deciding to leave. I'm still happy with my decision, but it would have been nice to have had more certainty.

Basically, don't put off hard decisions because you eventually have to make them anyway. Be proactive and intentional about Affirmation. It's a huge choice and sometimes I feel its magnitude is under-emphasized.
 
Hi, we have a yuk DS right now and is still deciding to affirm or not. He is considering transferring to another college, but really can’t because of his gpa. So he’s working to do better and finish out his yuk year. How is everything going with your choice? Any regrets? any advice would be great thank you.
 
From an empathy standpoint you probably won’t get much as prospective candidates await their decision on acceptance and you are discussing not affirming. More than one prospective candidate that won’t get an appointment is thinking that your appointment was wasted.
 
I just read your articles. Thank you for sharing! You earned your spot at the academy, just like the rest of the cadets, and went through the same process as all candidates do. As a candidate myself, I find your blog informative. I like to educate myself and ask myself these hard questions now. Who knows, maybe I get into a SA and find myself in the same situation you were in! I think your blog offers an insight into the tough questions and conversations cadets need to engage in.

Thanks again!
 
cptenca said:
From an empathy standpoint you probably won’t get much as prospective candidates await their decision on acceptance and you are discussing not affirming. More than one prospective candidate that won’t get an appointment is thinking that your appointment was wasted.
Click to expand...

Maybe not from the prospective candidate, because those candidates usually have no perspective yet from which to base the Academy life and what an Army life actually means yet, but there are people on these forums who have been in that yuk’s shoes and wrestled with the same decision that can offer their perspective of why they stayed. I’d also be careful saying that a person walking away before affirmation has wasted a slot. There are very good reasons the Army gives you two years to make the decision on whether or not to stay or go. I would 100% rather someone leave at the two year mark than stick it out for four years if their heart isn’t into being an Army officer. Soldiers deserve better than someone just waiting up their time on their five year obligation to peace out because they didn’t leave before they realized this wasn’t the life they wanted.



@cvdo10, don’t know what you’ll hear back from the OP, but I almost genuinely left the Academy twice. Once after my plebe year and once after my yuk year. Now almost six years out from graduation, I’m thankful to have stayed but it comes down to very personal choices of what your son wants to do with his life.

My general take when I talk to folks not sure about staying is that I will remind them school can be a very sucky place to be at, and I can’t imagine going through the experience without my teammates and travel for competitions because that was my respite away from the gloom that I know many cadets aren’t getting a chance with COVID restrictions, and I genuinely feel for this group of cadets that are dealing with a unique Academy experience. That said, every college is dealing with this, not just West Point. It will pass and as he continues at the Academy, the privileges really do get better that makes quality of life better as upper class.

What kept me there was some very pointed discussions with mentors about what end state I wanted to see myself in 5-10 years down the road. If your son is struggling at the Academy but his end goal is still service in the Army, I’d encourage him to stick it out and go find his mentors (TAC, a particular instructor, or whatever senior officer he has an affinity for that). Even if he is struggling in an area, be it military, physical, or academically, if he asks for help and puts in the effort, he will graduate. His classmates and instructors won’t let him fail out even if that means he’s a 2.0 and go kind of guy. At the end of the day though, a 2.0 is the same as a 4.0 in that they still earn the same LT bars. Good officers have come out of the Academy that have struggled. Honestly I have yet to meet someone who didn’t have a particular area somewhere, even the super cadets, that didn’t need help at one time or another. That’s the point of the system and dealing with failure is a big part of the learning process.

If he has decided though the Army isn’t the place for him, there’s no shame in that and he shouldn’t feel bad about moving on.
 
@Casey your value to this site is immeasurable. Besides SAF being fun, I stick around here because I learn stuff. Teaching in the career and technical realm, I use this knowledge to advise students. I’ve written more than one prickly post in my almost three years here including ”taking a slot” from another candidate. I now understand why and agree with allowing cadets/midshipmen to leave cost-free before third year.

My belief is the same as Casey’s from above.

“There are very good reasons the Army gives you two years to make the decision on whether or not to stay or go. I would 100% rather someone leave at the two year mark than stick it out for four years if their heart isn’t into being an Army officer. Soldiers deserve better than someone just waiting up their time on their five year obligation to peace out because they didn’t leave before they realized this wasn’t the life they wanted.”
 
Old thread, but very pertinent. Especially with this covid junk. Students are really having to dig deep to figure out if their ‘why’ can keep them on course.

It was especially hard to go back to the ‘suck that is’ presently at a SA. All of them. Y’all are my hero’s, bc there is no way I could do that.

There is no shame in questioning what you have chosen. And this isn’t unique to a SA. Most 17/18 yr olds don’t know what they want to do. Look at how many, at ‘regular college’ change their course of study. Also life altering to their journeys. It’s just different, bc of the whole process involved with a SA appointment.

Keep in mind, however, this attrition is planned for in the number of appointments offered. One person leaving, does not equate to ‘someone else would have received that appointment’. It doesn't work that way.

What a great post by @Casey!!
 
Last edited:
cvdo10 said:
Hi, we have a yuk DS right now and is still deciding to affirm or not. He is considering transferring to another college, but really can’t because of his gpa. So he’s working to do better and finish out his yuk year. How is everything going with your choice? Any regrets? any advice would be great thank you.
Click to expand...
Hi @cvdo10. I am still happy with my choice. I'm taking amazing computer science classes at Stanford, working as a course assistant for an intro CS class, and trying to figure out where I want to go with my career. I miss my friends/team/company a ton; I had plans to visit, but wasn't able to because of COVID. I don't regret leaving, but I miss life at West Point a lot. I don't know how much of that is genuinely missing it and how much of it is because I haven't been able to build new community at Stanford because of remote classes. I'll try to provide some advice for how to think about the decision, but every person is different and only your son can figure out what is best for him.

First off, your son shouldn't feel guilty about "taking a slot." That's BS. Most people coming into West Point have very little idea what military life is like, what the branch selection process is like, and so much more. The 2 years are allowed so you can make an informed decision.

I second everything mentioned by @Casey above, and have a few more thoughts to add.

Leaving West Point sucks. It might still be the right thing to do, but it will suck in a lot of ways. Regular college isn't perfect. Civilian life isn't easy. The grass isn't really greener--just different. I'm super grateful to have gotten a spot at Stanford and it is an amazing school, but even here I don't get the same connection with my instructors, and with COVID I've barely met any of my classmates. I don't have the sense of certainty and respect that comes from being a cadet/Army officer. I have more freedom and comfort and certain kinds of opportunities, but it is super stressful. I had focused my identity on being a cadet for so long that it has been hard for me to build my sense of self back up. When I made my decision I saw it like this:

Option 1: Stay at West Point and become an officer for 5-6 years. Somewhat interesting. I'm adequate at military and leadership stuff and would do fine as an officer. This path was very straightforward.

Option 2: Leave. Hope that I could find a way to add value to the world in a significant way that aligns with my strongest talents and interests.

I also knew that either option would leave me with regrets, but I ultimately chose to leave because I thought I would regret staying more than leaving. Committing the next 8 years of my life on a lukewarm interest didn't seem like a wise choice for me or for the soldiers I would lead during that time.

Some questions to consider:
1. Why did your son decide to go to West Point in the first place? What has changed since he got there?
2. How is his mental/physical health?
3. How has COVID impacted his West Point experience?
4. Why is his GPA so low? Lack of motivation? Depression? How will he deal with whatever the underlying issue is if he leaves?
5. What other careers is he interested in?
6. What is the worst case and best case scenario of both staying and leaving?
7. How will regular college/regular career stress be an improvement over West Point/Army obligation?

My contact info is on my blog. I'm happy to talk more if you have other questions. Hope this helps :)
 
Thank you guys for the reaction to my post, @Devil Doc and @justdoit19 in particular. I wasn’t expecting it to pick up that much attention. I’m constantly picking up things on these boards that helps me see other perspectives, and I’m glad that some thing that I can contribute do the same. I’m fully aware that I’m only offering a junior officer’s perspective in comparison to some of the experience



@CA_hopeful, I love the summary of questions you present. They really do summarize a great gut check for folks questioning their decision about what’s going on. For anyone reading through, while I know this response was originally directed at cvdo10’s situation, I would throw this out there that it isn’t just under performing cadets who think about leaving. I graduated in the top 5% of my class, and like I said, I almost left twice. I have a friend who did two years at West Point, left to finish his degree at an Ivy, and then came back to West Point to graduate there because he realized he had made a mistake leaving. My plebe class president left at the two year mark despite being a decorated enlisted Ranger and doing well academically. Sometimes school is a good fit. Sometimes it’s not. It’s up the individual to figure it out. And people’s reasons may have nothing to do with the Academy itself. Mine were related to a tough family situation that was adding stress to an already stressful environment.

That’s why I highly, highly encourage anyone thinking about leaving to reach out to the officers they interact with at school to get their perspective as well. Parents are absolutely a fantastic sounding board, but if they don’t have military experience, those TACs and instructors that West Point surrounds cadets with can help fill the gap in perspective of what Army life is in comparison to the daily West Point grind because they are not the same. Some things are better after graduation; some are worse. Even if they don’t feel they have a particular dedicated mentor yet, I guarantee if they just reach out to a particular instructor they liked, that officer 9 out of 10 times will drop most things to take coffee or some office hour time to sit and talk Army, leaving the Academy, and future life plans with that cadet. That’s part of the amazing part of West Point and it’s community.

Another thought to throw out there as well but TACs can also help set up a cadet’s summer schedule to do CTLT early (most commonly done as a rising firstie) as a rising cow for those unsure about Army life to get that cadet out to see life in the force before Affirmation. It just requires discussion with the TAC ahead of time, but generally if there’s a cadet feeling unsure about sticking it out, a good TAC will try to make this happen so they can make an educated decision. A very good friend of mine worked with our TAC to do CTLT and his leadership detail as a rising cow. He will tell you that getting a taste of PL life and then seeing his impact as a SL during CBT before Affirmation were probably some of the most compelling reasons to get him off the fence about staying. He’s now a happy pilot about to take command and doing great things for the Army.
 
CA_hopeful said:
Hi @cvdo10. I am still happy with my choice. I'm taking amazing computer science classes at Stanford, working as a course assistant for an intro CS class, and trying to figure out where I want to go with my career. I miss my friends/team/company a ton; I had plans to visit, but wasn't able to because of COVID. I don't regret leaving, but I miss life at West Point a lot. I don't know how much of that is genuinely missing it and how much of it is because I haven't been able to build new community at Stanford because of remote classes. I'll try to provide some advice for how to think about the decision, but every person is different and only your son can figure out what is best for him.

First off, your son shouldn't feel guilty about "taking a slot." That's BS. Most people coming into West Point have very little idea what military life is like, what the branch selection process is like, and so much more. The 2 years are allowed so you can make an informed decision.

I second everything mentioned by @Casey above, and have a few more thoughts to add.

Leaving West Point sucks. It might still be the right thing to do, but it will suck in a lot of ways. Regular college isn't perfect. Civilian life isn't easy. The grass isn't really greener--just different. I'm super grateful to have gotten a spot at Stanford and it is an amazing school, but even here I don't get the same connection with my instructors, and with COVID I've barely met any of my classmates. I don't have the sense of certainty and respect that comes from being a cadet/Army officer. I have more freedom and comfort and certain kinds of opportunities, but it is super stressful. I had focused my identity on being a cadet for so long that it has been hard for me to build my sense of self back up. When I made my decision I saw it like this:

Option 1: Stay at West Point and become an officer for 5-6 years. Somewhat interesting. I'm adequate at military and leadership stuff and would do fine as an officer. This path was very straightforward.

Option 2: Leave. Hope that I could find a way to add value to the world in a significant way that aligns with my strongest talents and interests.

I also knew that either option would leave me with regrets, but I ultimately chose to leave because I thought I would regret staying more than leaving. Committing the next 8 years of my life on a lukewarm interest didn't seem like a wise choice for me or for the soldiers I would lead during that time.

Some questions to consider:
1. Why did your son decide to go to West Point in the first place? What has changed since he got there?
2. How is his mental/physical health?
3. How has COVID impacted his West Point experience?
4. Why is his GPA so low? Lack of motivation? Depression? How will he deal with whatever the underlying issue is if he leaves?
5. What other careers is he interested in?
6. What is the worst case and best case scenario of both staying and leaving?
7. How will regular college/regular career stress be an improvement over West Point/Army obligation?

My contact info is on my blog. I'm happy to talk more if you have other questions. Hope this helps :)
Click to expand...
Thank you, I am happy you are doing well. I will use your information and advice to discuss with our DS. To answer all the questions you threw out there to consider would take a lot, so I will spare everyone the torture jk 😂 it’s best answered in a conversation. He has and continues to reach out to his TACs and leadership to help him work through everything. He was in a dark place and depressed last semester, because he felt he didn’t have any friends and WP had nothing to offer. This was not the case throughout his plebe year. That year he did well academically ie c+ to b- type, was involved in clubs, went to the city on leave, and socialized with friends etc. This pandemic year turned everything around and got him in a deep hole and he failed a few classes. He knows he wasn’t alone. The restrictions didn’t help. We supported him all we could so that he wouldn’t quit. He made it home for the break and is back at WP, even though he really didn’t want to go back knowing what to expect because of Covid. He told us he’s feeling good and will work hard on his academics. However, he’s still deciding whether to affirm or not. His only plan if he leaves is to transfer to a state school. But he hasn’t done any paperwork for that plan. Our thought at this time is that his only action is to stick it out like others have told him from school, even his TACs. At least that’s what he has told us. So at this point we can only hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Because losing that opportunity will be a financial concern about how will he pay for his school. We will have to deal with it as his parents. Best wishes to your new semester @CA_hopeful 👍 😁
 
Last edited:
The only wasted slot in my mind is the handful that don’t show up on R Day each year. But the affirmation convention is an excellent one. And the Admissions team has empirical data going back decades for how many will report to R day versus how many will graduate, so they build that into their models. After that there is a steady winnowing down of cadets for one reason or another (failure to meet standards, or disinterest) and that’s fine. If you don’t want to be in the Army after you get a sample of it in a way you couldn’t have known in high school, that’s a good thing to learn while there’s still time to switch gears.
 
@Casey your post was awesome. Our DS enjoyed his plebe Christmas break very much. But the days just before he flew back to Annapolis were a little dreary for him. He likes the Academy, missed his friends the moment he left BWI, but the difficulties of plebe year were fresh in his mind when he got on the plane. Now, back there, fully immersed in the ac year he has his hands and mind full. While he feels there are many smarter, more talented mids in his midst, he finds days he knows something someone doesn't and he can help. That feeling is invaluable when the dark ages are in full swing. I am sure that in a quiet, private head space, many have questioned the SA path.
As a wise moderator once said, they earned the spot, they didn't take it from anyone else, and they can choose to get off the merry-go round.
 
Some 25% of R-day cadets don't graduate. Since this has been happening consistently for more than a decade (see Rand report), USMA may be disappointed that a cadet leaves, but not surprised.
 
LovetoWP2025 said:
Some 25% of R-day cadets don't graduate. Since this has been happening consistently for more than a decade (see Rand report), USMA may be disappointed that a cadet leaves, but not surprised.
Click to expand...
Which academy has a modern day attrition rate of 25%? USNA is more like 10% now.
Heck, my class lost over 10% just during Plebe Summer and several times that overall.
 
OldRetSWO said:
Which academy has a modern day attrition rate of 25%? USNA is more like 10% now.
Heck, my class lost over 10% just during Plebe Summer and several times that overall.
Click to expand...

My class entered with about 1250 and graduated under 1000 for about a 20% attrition rate and that was considered normal.
 
OldRetSWO said:
We were the largest USNA class to enter - over 1500 and graduated under a thousand.
Click to expand...
Haha that’s insane; I know when the Academy was set up on an attrition model versus its class development model, the attrition rates were a lot higher. I was just commenting to show modern day rates at West Point are still closer to the 25% than 10% rate
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top