disenrolled 22 days before graduation

bigdog77515

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my son is being disenrolled from USAFA this week (22 days before graduating with an aero degree) for having too many demerits. there has been no honor code violations, no criminal problems, etc...

his tie was too short, he missed some class and the straw that broke the camel's back was that his girlfriend stayed the night in his room. before the girlfriend spent the night he was slated to go to pilot training, but now he is being thrown out.

i understand there are rules and they aren't made to be broken. does anyone else deem this excessive? also, what, if any recourse does he have? the process has gone through all the chain of commands and is in the superintendents office as i write this. would an attorney be able to do anything?

hopeless in texas!
 

Arizona

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At this point let your son be the one to lead things bringing an attorney into this situation will do nothing but make it worse. He needs to either speak to his superintendent man to man and show that he will do whatever it takes to graduate. If he can proof that he has the discipline that is required to be an officer they may give him a second chance. Best of luck to him but I urge you not to get involved, let your son deal with this on his on, of course feel free to offer advice but anything further will show that he is not mature enough to deal with things on his own.
 

LineInTheSand

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Seems very appropriate to me. Your son apparently has a pattern of not holding himself accountable, so someone else has to.

I had a classmate on suspended disenrollment for far far less, and the final straw was leaving to pick up freezie pops during drill practice. Boom, gone the week of graduation, even after an appeal.

Having a girlfriend sleep over IS MORE than enough on it's own, for a senior to be disenrolled.

Horrible decision. It's not the first time at an academy. It's not the last time at an academy. However, the punishment is appropriate, 22 before graduation or 122 days before graduation.

The good thing is, this isn't a felony, he's still young and has plenty of his life ahead of him. People make mistakes. Once they accept they made the wrong decision and they're liable for that decision, he'll find something to do with his life. All is not lost... it just won't happen through USAFA.
 

kinnem

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my son is being disenrolled from USAFA this week (22 days before graduating with an aero degree) for having too many demerits. there has been no honor code violations, no criminal problems, etc...

his tie was too short, he missed some class and the straw that broke the camel's back was that his girlfriend stayed the night in his room. before the girlfriend spent the night he was slated to go to pilot training, but now he is being thrown out.

i understand there are rules and they aren't made to be broken. does anyone else deem this excessive? also, what, if any recourse does he have? the process has gone through all the chain of commands and is in the superintendents office as i write this. would an attorney be able to do anything?

hopeless in texas!
I think you need to give him some guidance. Has there been a board? Can he ask for one? Besides worrying about whether he will commission, one also needs to worry about whether he will be required to pay back the Air Force for his education.
 

bigdog77515

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At this point let your son be the one to lead things bringing an attorney into this situation will do nothing but make it worse. He needs to either speak to his superintendent man to man and show that he will do whatever it takes to graduate. If he can proof that he has the discipline that is required to be an officer they may give him a second chance. Best of luck to him but I urge you not to get involved, let your son deal with this on his on, of course feel free to offer advice but anything further will show that he is not mature enough to deal with things on his own.
i haven't done anything. it's up to him. he made his bed and will now have to sleep in it. just wondering out loud.
 

LineInTheSand

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i haven't done anything. it's up to him. he made his bed and will now have to sleep in it. just wondering out loud.
Great outlook. Not easy to have I'm sure.

At CGA, cadets being disenrolled could appeal the decision. I don't think it will work, but, if USAFA has the same system, it is an option.
 

bigdog77515

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I think you need to give him some guidance. Has there been a board? Can he ask for one? Besides worrying about whether he will commission, one also needs to worry about whether he will be required to pay back the Air Force for his education.
there has been a board. i think the commission isn't the big thing, it's graduating at this point. carries a 3.0 gpa, which is all for nothing now. pretty sure he'll have to pay back the $.

my problem is that's it's all subjective. are you disenrolled for 200 demerits? 300? criminal problems? honor code violation?

i know it's military and government, but you would think there would be a little bit of human element in the decision-making process to disenroll a cadet.
 

icarus

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As you have stated that it has gone through the chain of command and now is up to the superintendent. It must've been also a tough decision for them to make. I truly hope that your son tries for an appeal and that his merits will outweigh this unfortunate lapse of good judgment.
 

HeWantsTheBFE

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there has been a board. i think the commission isn't the big thing, it's graduating at this point. carries a 3.0 gpa, which is all for nothing now. pretty sure he'll have to pay back the $.

my problem is that's it's all subjective. are you disenrolled for 200 demerits? 300? criminal problems? honor code violation?

i know it's military and government, but you would think there would be a little bit of human element in the decision-making process to disenroll a cadet.
He was caught sleeping with someone... he made his bed and slept in it. Literally. I very highly doubt he can win an appeal. From what i've gathered, he will be lucky not to have to pay the USAFA back.

It stinks that he was this close and blew it... but maybe his GF will be worth it in the end? Hopefully something good comes from this.
 

bigdog77515

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He was caught sleeping with someone... he made his bed and slept in it. Literally. I very highly doubt he can win an appeal. From what i've gathered, he will be lucky not to have to pay the USAFA back.

It stinks that he was this close and blew it... but maybe his GF will be worth it in the end? Hopefully something good comes from this.
he likely won't appeal. i'm not even sure there is an appeals process. like i said before, i'm pretty much out of it. just getting opinions/statements from others who might have been through this. as a parent, it is really disheartening.
 

LineInTheSand

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my problem is that's it's all subjective. are you disenrolled for 200 demerits? 300? criminal problems? honor code violation?
You shouldn't be confused. He could have 0 demerits, the "girlfriend slept over" thing is MORE than enough to be kicked out.

At CGA 150 demerits was the max a 1/c cadet could have. At 50% of that (75 demerits), they are reviewed.

It's not subjective at all, the offense alone was enough to be disenrolled. If he had other demerits before that... well, no surprise.

Honestly, a 1/c cadet should know how to tie his tie and anything else. He's expected to be a leader. What do people thing who work for him?
 

hornetguy

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From my experience, "demerits" sounds more like a way of saying too many stupid decisions. Missing classes is a big deal. That would put him in a lot of trouble. As LITS said, something like having a gf sleep over is more than enough to be dis enrolled or receive a major punishment. Combined is a bad pattern of behavior.

I know you don't want to hear about your son being a bad person, etc. but I saw cadets that had these types of issues and that was just what we caught on top of usually being pretty uncaring in many other ways. Often they behaved as if they were above the law. I saw 2-3 from my squadron go the same way and knew of a couple dozen during my cadet time have the same thing happen. In almost every case, no one was surprised nor disagreed with the action.

While it sucks as a parent to have to see this, you are right, he brought this on himself. Do I think it's too harsh? No, not the first time I've seen it. He will have some pretty terrible debt from this, but at least nothing criminal in nature. Life's not over, but he'll pay the price of his decisions.
 

falcongirl

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"No sleepovers" was one of the Commandant's heavy emphasis items this semester, right up next to "No sexual assault," and "No DUI." We've been warned MANY, MANY times that sleepovers are not acceptable, and will be severely punished.
 

icarus

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Not to add salt to the wound but just curious. I just find it hard to fathom how a C1C can have a guest over unless the guest is another cadet? If another cadet(same class or underclass) of the opposite sex is caught in the same predicament, what are the ramifications for the other party since we already know what they levied against the OP's C1C?
 

Jcleppe

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As someone that commissioned as a Mustang and has had two sons in ROTC at a civilian university, all I can say is...Holy Crap!

Sorry to hear this has turned out the way it has, best of luck to your son in the future.

I do have one question, will your son be able to take classes elsewhere to complete his degree, will another university transfer his credits to date from the AFA.

Has the AFA even begun to address what the payback will be, is there a chance at all for enlistment.
 

raimius

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my problem is that's it's all subjective. are you disenrolled for 200 demerits? 300? criminal problems? honor code violation?
Unless they've completely scrapped the system, it's not very subjective. If you do X, Y, or Z, you can be shown the door.
The thing that makes it appear subjective is that lesser punishment than is possible is often used. I knew a cadet that was kicked out about a week before graduating. I don't know what the final thing was, but there was a long trend. It didn't really surprise a lot of people, but a few were surprised he made it as long as he did. At least, that's the way it was a few years ago.
 

bmw17

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obviously he messed up and has to face it... however I do think it's interesting that he got kicked out while not too long ago (last year? two years ago?) one of the football players knocked up his girlfriend (also a cadet?) and both of them were allowed to stay at USAFA and graduate/commission. Clearly, I'm a little fuzzy with the details... but it begs the question, what is disenrollment-worthy and what is not?
 

usna1985

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Most SAs have demerit "caps" that subject you to dismissal. In my day at USNA, once you reached that point, the Commandant made the decision whether to retain or separate you, subject to review by the Supe.

Some of the factors that went into the decision: grades, recommendations of company officers and professors, pattern of misconduct, type of offense, prior discipline, etc. Number of days before graduation was not one of those . . . a SA doesn't want to send into the "fleet" (or however it's termed in the USAF) someone who will become a problem child and reflect badly on himself, the USAFA, and the USAF.

It may also be that, if as the above poster said, there have been prior warnings about having a GF in the dorm, the Administration wants to make an example of someone and your DS became that example.

The situation obviously sucks for your DS and, by extension, for you. Assuming he had some sort of formal administrative process (and I assume he had), I doubt there is anything he can do to reverse the decision. In fact, given the publicity such a challenge would cause, I'm not sure he'd want to serve in the USAF even were he to be successful in such a challenge.

If they ask him to pay back some/all of his education, your DS may want to seek legal recourse. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't have to pay it back (that's not my decision and I have insufficient facts) but, if he's looking at a bill for $100,000 or more, it probably makes sense to figure out what legal options he has -- or doesn't have.
 

Jcleppe

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If they ask him to pay back some/all of his education, your DS may want to seek legal recourse. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't have to pay it back (that's not my decision and I have insufficient facts) but, if he's looking at a bill for $100,000 or more, it probably makes sense to figure out what legal options he has -- or doesn't have.
A question regarding this. Over the last couple years there have been several stories of cadets and mids being dis-enrolled from academies. There has never really been a set amout as to what will be paid back. In most cases it was said that there "May" be a payback or the amount was being discussed.

This seems odd to a parent of a ROTC Scholarship cadet, In ROTC, if your dis-enrolled and not allowed to enlist there is no discussion, no wait and see. That cadet is handed a bill for all the tuition that has been paid, no negotiations.

That Academies tout the high dollar value of their intsituitions at awards ceremonys, and during recruitment, but when it comes to pay back that cost it always seems to be smaller then the value they first talked about, some leave and have no obligation.

To me it would seem this cadet would owe a lot more then $100,000 for 3 1/2 years at the AFA.
 

hornetguy

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A question regarding this. Over the last couple years there have been several stories of cadets and mids being dis-enrolled from academies. There has never really been a set amout as to what will be paid back. In most cases it was said that there "May" be a payback or the amount was being discussed.

This seems odd to a parent of a ROTC Scholarship cadet, In ROTC, if your dis-enrolled and not allowed to enlist there is no discussion, no wait and see. That cadet is handed a bill for all the tuition that has been paid, no negotiations.

That Academies tout the high dollar value of their intsituitions at awards ceremonys, and during recruitment, but when it comes to pay back that cost it always seems to be smaller then the value they first talked about, some leave and have no obligation.

To me it would seem this cadet would owe a lot more then $100,000 for 3 1/2 years at the AFA.
The huge number quoted (like 3-400K) is based on the budget of the academy divided by the number of cadets/mids. Places like USAFA have additional units (10th ABW) that can ramp that number up. They calculate the payback as the value of the education received rather than the average cost per cadet/mid of the installation. Should military training (such as airmanship, BCT, etc.) be allowed to be included in that sum charged to a separated cadet (or LT who is booted shortly after going on duty)? We don't send a bill for military training anywhere else (enlisted, pilots, etc.), so why would we do it just for them? That's why the bill is so much less (~$30K a year equivalent usually) since it is for education and not military training.
 
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