Downsizing Contracted AROTC

[Jcleppe]

Don't think that contracted cadets are entirely safe. Over break my son's tole me that a contracted MS3 SMP cadet was shown the door, No infractions, passed APFT, grades above the min. The MS3 class at my son's school is currently over mission and they are cutting those who are bringing up the rear.

Message is, even when you become contracted keep working hard, don't sit back and thing your safe.

One comment about Active Duty and Reserves, A lot of people seem to think that Active Duty is the only option these cadets are looking at. Last year around 2000 plus cadets chose to go Reserves, granted there were others that were not given the choice but still a large numer selected Reserves willingly. I would not be surprised to see even higher numbers choosing Reserves from the classes of 2015 and 2016 if the economy picks up by the time they graduate.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Packer, I was specifically referring to the scholarship cadets. They were awarded their scholarship with a 4 year active then 4 year reserve commitment. It is those cadets that are now being given the "option" to go all reserve by the Army. It was not an option when they signed on the dotted line at the beginning of their freshman year. Sorry if I was unclear about that.

There are scholarships cadets this years who are being FORCED to Reserves.
Being a scholarship cadets is no guarantee that you will commission AD and never has been. The contract is always the Army's choice - if you are not high enough on the OML you will not get AD regardless of your scholarship status.

To be absolutely clear - this process has not changed. What has changed is where the line is being drawn on the OML. That line has gotten significantly higher in the past year.
5-6 years ago the Army could not get enough 2LT's, thus nearly anyone who wanted as well as scholarship cadets went AD.

As the OML line becomes higher and higher - btw getting a E at LDAC is no guarantee for AD - I would encourage all Cadets to have a contingency in the event they are forced to go Reserves/Guard.
This may include choosing a major with employable opportunities.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Over break my son's tole me that a contracted MS3 SMP cadet was shown the door,

Anyone choosing SMP as a path to officership because they did not get a scholarship - take heed. If this cadet has not already gone, he now must go to Basic, AIT and serve the remaining 8 year commitment enlisted in the Guard/Reserves.
My point is - if you choose SMP while in college be fully prepared to serve 8 years as an enlisted soldier in the Reserves/Guard.

 

[clarksonarmy]

First off, in the 7 years I have been doing this job, 4 year scholarship cadets have always been able to choose guard or reserves instead of active duty.
Secondly, I don't know what they are doing at the SMCs, but I'm going to guess the PMS's ability not to recommend for AD will be brought to bear to control the numbers. Just a guess.
Thirdly, Although not technically SMP until contracted, there are ways to start down the SMP path (enlist 09r and must contract within a certain amount of time), and be able to avoid serving if you don't contract.

 

[kinnem]

It never ends

HA HA HA! Laughing at myself.

After first semester I figured I no longer really had to worry about my kid. He was doing well academically and physically and got a squad leader billet. As long as he could stay on track he would be fine. I was confident he would at least achieve Advanced Standing and definitely commision. Further, there was no doubt he would go AD. Not doing so would break his heart. I certainly didn't have to worry about yet another plan B.

I have been rudely awakened. I knew things would get tougher with the budget cuts, but I really had no idea it might get this bad. We're fortunate that the Marines don't seem to be hit as hard as the Army according to newspaper reports, but still... Maybe its just the doom and gloom of the posts that have me down.

I'm trying to claw my way back to - control what you can and don't worry about the rest. Hope to be again soon.

 

[Packer]

There are scholarships cadets this years who are being FORCED to Reserves.
Being a scholarship cadets is no guarantee that you will commission AD and never has been. The contract is always the Army's choice - if you are not high enough on the OML you will not get AD regardless of your scholarship status.

JAM, the SMC's operate a little differently than regular ROTC colleges.

 

[patentesq]

As the OML line becomes higher and higher - btw getting a E at LDAC is no guarantee for AD - I would encourage all Cadets to have a contingency in the event they are forced to go Reserves/Guard.
This may include choosing a major with employable opportunities.

This is an excellent point. Going forward, future ROTC candidates should keep their eyes on these trends in their college planning. For example, if you are a current AROTC scholarship applicant and are deciding between USMA, an SMC, and AROTC at a civilian college, and you really want to obtain an active duty slot, you should follow the discussion threads here on SAF as well as looking at the President's budget (and other news stories) to determine which path will provide the more certain path toward an active duty slot. Over the past 10 years, the big deciding factor among these was the "lifestyle" because everyone had a high chance of getting an active-duty slot if they wanted it, but now you have to add "likelihood of AD slot" to the mix as well (in my view). This may not be as great of a problem for the folks who are currently in the AROTC pipeline (because the AROTC numbers are, for the majority, already accounted for in the budgeting numbers (although the OML cut-off is rising). But for the Class of 2016 and beyond, just know that these projections are being formulated now and the trend is a downward slope. Unfortunately, you will have to make decisions based on imperfect and incomplete information and there are no guarantees about what the landscape will look like for sure when you ultimately graduate four years from now. But the budget problems are likely not going away anytime soon.

Also, like JAM said, when selecting a major and you are deciding between, say, computer science and history (and really enjoy both subjects), ask yourself whether the Army is looking to recruit more computer scientists than history majors for the future Army. While there is no official policy now on this, don't freak out when you are an MSIII and learn that the policy has changed and that computer science majors have the "edge" in obtaining an active duty slot.

I think that the Army's stated need for "cyber-warriors" is a huge positive sign for AROTC in civilian colleges, because there aren't enough CS faculty members at USMA and the SMCs to satisfy the anticipated demand. Although this is different than the situation of the 1990's, we'll have to see how this ultimately plays out. Certainly, we can expect these programs to become larger at USMA and the SMCs going forward, because market demand will ultimately guide the decisions at these educational institutions on where to place the educational emphasis.

But certainly, do not select a major that you do not enjoy simply because you think it will increase your active-duty chances (this is because you likely won't do as well in a major that you do not enjoy, which can hurt you more). Recognize that there are plenty of slots for history majors in the Army, but it is probably not as "marketable" as say computer science.

Even though you certainly can't control any of this, if you really want to be an officer in the Army of the next 30 years, you cannot turn a blind eye to the evolving environment but should instead prepare yourself to be an effective part of our Army's future officer corps.

And as Packer said, you also need to have contingency plans in place. This includes having an employable major as JAM suggests. And as Packer said, simply worrying about it doesn't do much good if you let "worry" get the better of you. But "worry" can be a very good "motivator" if it encourages you to work harder than before.

In short, I think it is much better to understand the environment we are in and learn to navigate within it. Obstacles become less of a problem if you know about them and have a solid plan to deal with them. It is those who do not prepare who get swept away. Don't be afraid of "unpleasant" information; embrace it.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

First off, in the 7 years I have been doing this job, 4 year scholarship cadets have always been able to choose guard or reserves instead of active duty.
Secondly, I don't know what they are doing at the SMCs, but I'm going to guess the PMS's ability not to recommend for AD will be brought to bear to control the numbers. Just a guess.
Thirdly, Although not technically SMP until contracted, there are ways to start down the SMP path (enlist 09r and must contract within a certain amount of time), and be able to avoid serving if you don't contract.

I will ask DS to check with his Sgt. and/or MS1 instructor if this situation applies to him. As of right now, he has no AIT(contract states 88M/truck driver on a split option-basic this summer and then supposed to contract this fall and 88M never happens...). He would serve the Guard willingly officer or not, but he's not really thought it would be required and how that would work.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

HA HA HA! Laughing at myself.

After first semester I figured I no longer really had to worry about my kid. He was doing well academically and physically and got a squad leader billet. As long as he could stay on track he would be fine. I was confident he would at least achieve Advanced Standing and definitely commision. Further, there was no doubt he would go AD. Not doing so would break his heart. I certainly didn't have to worry about yet another plan B.

I have been rudely awakened. I knew things would get tougher with the budget cuts, but I really had no idea it might get this bad. We're fortunate that the Marines don't seem to be hit as hard as the Army according to newspaper reports, but still... Maybe its just the doom and gloom of the posts that have me down.

I'm trying to claw my way back to - control what you can and don't worry about the rest. Hope to be again soon.

Yep - feel like I fell down the rabbit hole and have followed Alice into Wonderland...wonder if he'll get a contract, wonder if he'll get AD/Guard, wonder what grad school will be near his Guard assignment......Wonder if I'm losing my mind

I appreciate the feedback and I am glad to have posted DS's situation(its always easy to post when they are doing well, not so great when they've done stupid).

Oh, I had a PM ask me how DS could have gone from a 270 APFT to a non-passing run in 2-3 weeks...It was more like 2 months(8 weeks) - DS has been on Christmas break since Thanksgiving, no PT the week before due to finals and no PT the first week back in January... DS somehow thought the 2 months without running would'nt change his time "that much" He lost 2 minutes - 14:20 to 16:20ish.

Will have to start reading more newspapers(still have the links Gojack, Patentesq and other provided last year at this time...wow, its like the movie Ground Hogs day - keep waking up in the same place

 

[patentesq]

Ohio, I wouldn't sweat the diagnostic test. That's what it is for (to serve as a wake-up call). In my earlier post, I missed that this was a diagnostic. But your DS knows what he needs to do, and that is a good thing.

 

[Jcleppe]

To be absolutely clear - this process has not changed. What has changed is where the line is being drawn on the OML. That line has gotten significantly higher in the past year.
5-6 years ago the Army could not get enough 2LT's, thus nearly anyone who wanted as well as scholarship cadets went AD.

I don't think a lot of people realize that there is not an AD Cutoff line that is set each year. The Army decides how many Active Duty they need to fill their mission that year. They go down the list excluding those cadets that want Reserves or ED, when they reach the number they are aiming for they stop. Whatever the OMS score of the last cadet selected, I guess you could say that was the cutoff line for that year. The OMS score for the last cadet selected for active duty may have been higher last year but that had nothing to do with the total number selected. More cadets were selected last year for AD then the previous year, the fact that the OMS number was higher was just because the overall scores ran higher last year.

The cutoff is whatever the OMS score of the last cadet selected, the important number is the amount of cadets they will select that given year, the cutoff line is arbitrary.

 

[Packer]

This is an excellent point. Going forward, future ROTC candidates should keep their eyes on these trends in their college planning. For example, if you are a current AROTC scholarship applicant and are deciding between USMA, an SMC, and AROTC at a civilian college, and you really want to obtain an active duty slot, you should follow the discussion threads here on SAF as well as looking at the President's budget (and other news stories) to determine which path will provide the more certain path toward an active duty slot. Over the past 10 years, the big deciding factor among these was the "lifestyle" because everyone had a high chance of getting an active-duty slot if they wanted it, but now you have to add "likelihood of AD slot" to the mix as well (in my view). This may not be as great of a problem for the folks who are currently in the AROTC pipeline (because the AROTC numbers are, for the majority, already accounted for in the budgeting numbers (although the OML cut-off is rising). But for the Class of 2016 and beyond, just know that these projections are being formulated now and the trend is a downward slope. Unfortunately, you will have to make decisions based on imperfect and incomplete information and there are no guarantees about what the landscape will look like for sure when you ultimately graduate four years from now. But the budget problems are likely not going away anytime soon.

Also, like JAM said, when selecting a major and you are deciding between, say, computer science and history (and really enjoy both subjects), ask yourself whether the Army is looking to recruit more computer scientists than history majors for the future Army. While there is no official policy now on this, don't freak out when you are an MSIII and learn that the policy has changed and that computer science majors have the "edge" in obtaining an active duty slot.

I think that the Army's stated need for "cyber-warriors" is a huge positive sign for AROTC in civilian colleges, because there aren't enough CS faculty members at USMA and the SMCs to satisfy the anticipated demand. Although this is different than the situation of the 1990's, we'll have to see how this ultimately plays out. Certainly, we can expect these programs to become larger at USMA and the SMCs going forward, because market demand will ultimately guide the decisions at these educational institutions on where to place the educational emphasis.

But certainly, do not select a major that you do not enjoy simply because you think it will increase your active-duty chances (this is because you likely won't do as well in a major that you do not enjoy, which can hurt you more). Recognize that there are plenty of slots for history majors in the Army, but it is probably not as "marketable" as say computer science.

Even though you certainly can't control any of this, if you really want to be an officer in the Army of the next 30 years, you cannot turn a blind eye to the evolving environment but should instead prepare yourself to be an effective part of our Army's future officer corps.

And as Packer said, you also need to have contingency plans in place. This includes having an employable major as JAM suggests. And as Packer said, simply worrying about it doesn't do much good if you let "worry" get the better of you. But "worry" can be a very good "motivator" if it encourages you to work harder than before.

In short, I think it is much better to understand the environment we are in and learn to navigate within it. Obstacles become less of a problem if you know about them and have a solid plan to deal with them. It is those who do not prepare who get swept away. Don't be afraid of "unpleasant" information; embrace it.

Great post!

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

Ohio, I wouldn't sweat the diagnostic test. That's what it is for (to serve as a wake-up call). In my earlier post, I missed that this was a diagnostic. But your DS knows what he needs to do, and that is a good thing.

Patentesq, I did not specify in the earliest post - DS explained to us later that the 1st APFT of the quarter will count in the total OML score similar to the score LDAC gives your most recent batallion level APFT. The March APFT will be weighted to the same point the LDAC APFT counts more in the final OMS. So, he gets 0 points(even though he did get his pu/su in no problem)for the diagnostic, will need to do some "shock and awe" come March

Hopefully he will have learned this lesson early and not compromise his status again.

 

[goaliedad]

Oh, I had a PM ask me how DS could have gone from a 270 APFT to a non-passing run in 2-3 weeks...It was more like 2 months(8 weeks) - DS has been on Christmas break since Thanksgiving, no PT the week before due to finals and no PT the first week back in January... DS somehow thought the 2 months without running would'nt change his time "that much" He lost 2 minutes - 14:20 to 16:20ish.

A couple of thoughts here...

First, OhioSon probably needs to ask himself whether he really enjoys being in top shape or if it just part of the "job". I suspect the latter (at least with regards to running), as most dedicated athletes get a bit itchy after about a week of inactivity and find ways to get themselves back in rhythm regardless of the situation. If it is part of the job, then that is just one of those things he has to force into his schedule and track his results going forward.

And if he wasn't aware how bad his time was until he finished, he definitely needs a watch with a timer. The lap math (depending upon the size of the track, of course) is relatively simple, although budgeting your laps should include a little slack for the stiches that sometimes happen in that last lap. He shouldn't pace himself off of an arbitrary runner in the unit as he too can have a bad day.

 

[uniform 419]

And if he wasn't aware how bad his time was until he finished, he definitely needs a watch with a timer. The lap math (depending upon the size of the track, of course) is relatively simple, although budgeting your laps should include a little slack for the stiches that sometimes happen in that last lap. He shouldn't pace himself off of an arbitrary runner in the unit as he too can have a bad day.

Another suggestion, at the risk of going off-topic, having timers stationed every two hundred meters (on a 400m track) can help push run times down about 20-30 seconds. Don't know precisely why, or if this is SOP elsewhere, but the timers always work out well for me and my buddies.

Assuming time callers aren't SOP at OhioSon's battalion, I'd side with goaliedad and urge that he wear a watch and learn his lap math.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

A couple of thoughts here...

First, OhioSon probably needs to ask himself whether he really enjoys being in top shape or if it just part of the "job". I suspect the latter (at least with regards to running), as most dedicated athletes get a bit itchy after about a week of inactivity and find ways to get themselves back in rhythm regardless of the situation. If it is part of the job, then that is just one of those things he has to force into his schedule and track his results going forward.

And if he wasn't aware how bad his time was until he finished, he definitely needs a watch with a timer. The lap math (depending upon the size of the track, of course) is relatively simple, although budgeting your laps should include a little slack for the stiches that sometimes happen in that last lap. He shouldn't pace himself off of an arbitrary runner in the unit as he too can have a bad day.

Another suggestion, at the risk of going off-topic, having timers stationed every two hundred meters (on a 400m track) can help push run times down about 20-30 seconds. Don't know precisely why, or if this is SOP elsewhere, but the timers always work out well for me and my buddies.

Assuming time callers aren't SOP at OhioSon's battalion, I'd side with goaliedad and urge that he wear a watch and learn his lap math.

Thanks for the tips! DS doesn't run laps, his limited running experience in middle school and high school were cross country style training, so I'll have to ask him if he times by mile markers or what when he runs. He owns the watch to do this - must be taken outside and utilized APFT and PT runs are also outside over various paved paths - perhaps if the weather becomes too difficult they will use the indoor track.

Goaliedad, you hit it on the money - its part of the job. He enjoys outdoor activity(hiking, canoeing/kayak, rappeling/rock climbing) but is not a focused athlete of any sport. Ran in middle/high school Xcountry - until it interferred with other activities(scouts, student gov't...)At his high school, varsity athletes do not typically have time to participate in other activities. He swam JV for a seaon, that too demanded sole focus. He did well with his own workouts thru junior and senior year, played a little rec league b-ball and indoor soccer but slacked over Christmas and WHAM - he won't make that mistake again, nor will the upcoming year allow him any periods of time to slack off. He leaves for BCT 2 days after finals and returns 2 days before classes for fall begin - oh, and no more 6 week Christmas breaks either Just a shame he didn't listen to his momma--he hates when I'm right

 

[CadetMom777]

Just a shame he didn't listen to his momma--he hates when I'm right

So true! It's funny how, starting at adolescence, mom and dad get dumber and dumber with each passing year. Then, as independent adult life starts taking over for them, mom and dad's IQ starts rising precipitously!

 

[sg1fan93]

DS should be in good position(until he blew his APFT run this morning, 16:20 isn't passing..., he was #6 on the list and since he will retake it in March before decision time he can redeem himself.)

It seems your son and I fell under the same winter break spell

 

[leapyear]

3AD Validation

Clarkson/Marist, I was a bit concerned after reading one of Clarkson's earlier posts about PMS's potentially managing scholarships by not validating 3 year ADs. My son is a 3 yr AD, now in his second semester. The PMS billet at his school is, according to the Cadet Command website, scheduled for rotation this summer. He has a 3.5 cum GPA as an engineering major, got an A and an A+ in his two ROTC classes last semester, and has passed the APFT each time (though not with the score he is capable of), so I think he deserves to contract in the Fall, but of course what I think doesn't count. Would the decision to validate 3AD's normally be made by his current PMS at the end of this school year, or would that be done by the new PMS when they return in the Fall? Thanks

 

[Jcleppe]

Clarkson/Marist, I was a bit concerned after reading one of Clarkson's earlier posts about PMS's potentially managing scholarships by not validating 3 year ADs. My son is a 3 yr AD, now in his second semester. The PMS billet at his school is, according to the Cadet Command website, scheduled for rotation this summer. He has a 3.5 cum GPA as an engineering major, got an A and an A+ in his two ROTC classes last semester, and has passed the APFT each time (though not with the score he is capable of), so I think he deserves to contract in the Fall, but of course what I think doesn't count. Would the decision to validate 3AD's normally be made by his current PMS at the end of this school year, or would that be done by the new PMS when they return in the Fall? Thanks

The current PMS will evaluate your son.

With a 3.5 and passing all his APFT he should have nothing to worry about unless everyone else is far above him in stats. He should work hard this next semester to keep his GPA at the same or higher level, workout extra at the gym and keep improving his APFT, they like to see upward movement.

He looks to be in good shape.