Fall Semester 2012 xROTC updates

Of course the AF puts a lot of emphasis on the PFA, I'm just saying if in fact that a HSSP does not have to pass the PFA in order to contract. If they are not able to pass the PFA in the first semester they will be given a conditional event (not good) but will still be allowed to stay in the program for the second semester where they will try again to pass the PFA. If they do not pass again that semester they will be given a second conditional event and will no doubt be pressured to leave the program before the school year is up or will have already freshman opted out. I don't really think that a HSSP selectee would ever do such a thing, I'm just saying it is possible. HSSP winners can leave after their freshman year no questions asked for any reason at all without any repercussions. I would never consider showing up for my freshman year not able to pass the PFA, just saying that it is possible to do so.

Thanks for the explanation. That's a nice break for the AFROTC HSSP cadets.

Last year my son was one of 3 Four year scholarship cadets, my son was the only one to pass the APFT. One cadet never passed and left the program at the semester. The other cadet had not passed yet when he injured his ankle, he was given a waiver to come back the next semester, he did not receive his tuition, book or stipend money for the first semester. This same cadet never passed the APFT the second semester and his Scholarship was revoked having again never received any scholarship money, he has returned this year as a non scholarship cadet and will need to pass the APFT is he is to be considered for placement in the Advanced Course starting his junior year.

Interesting to hear how the different services handle things. I would imagine that even though an AFROTC cadet receives his money that not passing the PFA does not help them much when it comes to SFT selection.
 
I don't really think that a HSSP selectee would ever do such a thing, ... showing up for my freshman year not able to pass the PFA
Awww... you gotta love youthful enthusiasm.

It's not that they would intentionally show up under PFA standard or weight standards, it's just that it happens, even with good intentions. Then you've got your whole % of selectees that went into the scholarship process as one of their many career options, and during freshman year (or maybe even in 2nd semester of HS Sr. year), decide it's not an option they want to pursue with any effort after all. With such a cadet, there is little incentive to do the work necessary to pass the PFA or the weight standards. Then you've got a second % that pursued and took the Scholarship based upon romatic notions of flying a Stealth fighter or an F35. At orientation and then often thereafter, they learn that only about 10% (or whatever the number actually is -- 4% - 8%, whatever) of Air Force Officers pilot fighters, with 90% either piloting non-fighter airframes, or don't pilot at all, and do all the other critical and necessary non-piloting activities in the Air Force ... mechanic, supply and logistics, police, HR, etc. When the romance of being Tom Cruise in Blues or Chuck Yeager evaporates, there isn't any mature foundation of "service before self" and "the needs of the Air Force" in the cadets' character to support the cadets through exploring other Air Force service options.
 
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Jcleppe said:
I would imagine that even though an AFROTC cadet receives his money that not passing the PFA does not help them much when it comes to SFT selection.

+1

I will say if AFROTC scholarship is the way to pay for college tuition I hope you know how to pay for the final 2 yrs. And OBTW, read the fine print about if you opt out after the 1st yr as a cadet.

A 95 is considered low for the PFT.

As far as becksgirl's post,

I agree I can't imagine it, but stranger things happen. I will say for the cadet that finds the loophole to pay for a yr on tax payer dime, good on you, but as far as I am concerned, I would hate to look at myself in the mirror knowing I used that loophole.

I also for the 1st time in my life am embarrassed of the AF if this is true. I don't know if it is, I don't know if it isn't, but still the same; I think it is fraud,waste and abuse regarding AF money if they allow it. Shame on the AF if they allow it. Shame on the DOD to allow the AF to allow it.

I get if a cadet breaks a leg, but besides something to that level. Show up for ROTC and pass the PFT before you go pass GO and collect a check. We are talking about 20K +/- a yr., more than the base salary for an 18 yo AD enlisted member that has to pass this test. Why should they get the 1 yr freebie as an AFROTC cadet?
 
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After reading becksgirl post, I went and found my son's scholarship paper work he received last January. Under "the checklists of required actions for HSSP designees" on page 11 with the heading "Air Force weight and fitness standards" it reads: To activate and retain your scholarship, you must meet AFROTC weight standards and the minimum requirements for Physical Fitness Test (PRT). You will have until the last day of the Fall term to meet these weight and fitness standards--if you are unable to do so, your scholarship offer will be withdrawn.
 
After reading becksgirl post, I went and found my son's scholarship paper work he received last January. Under "the checklists of required actions for HSSP designees" on page 11 with the heading "Air Force weight and fitness standards" it reads: To activate and retain your scholarship, you must meet AFROTC weight standards and the minimum requirements for Physical Fitness Test (PRT). You will have until the last day of the Fall term to meet these weight and fitness standards--if you are unable to do so, your scholarship offer will be withdrawn.

Certainly sounds like you are required to pass the PFT prior to the activation of the scholarship. I still maintain the AFROTC process can sure be confusing sometimes, enough to make your head spin. I guess the new cadets will just have to show up and see what happens and be prepared to pass the test.
 
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it appears Becksgirl has removed part of a the post on page 2 that quoted the regulation that exempted AFROTC HSSP 3 and 4 year awardees from the PFA requirement in the first year.... or did I miss it when I went back to look for it?

In any case, we now appear to have conflicting information.... that meeting PFA standards requirement in first year is exempted for 3&4 year HSSA designees (but required for non-HSSA designees), and the post citing the Scholarship paperwork that stiipulates that if the PFA isn't passed by the end of Fall term, the scholarship is withdrawn.
 
After reading becksgirl post, I went and found my son's scholarship paper work he received last January. Under "the checklists of required actions for HSSP designees" on page 11 with the heading "Air Force weight and fitness standards" it reads: To activate and retain your scholarship, you must meet AFROTC weight standards and the minimum requirements for Physical Fitness Test (PRT). You will have until the last day of the Fall term to meet these weight and fitness standards--if you are unable to do so, your scholarship offer will be withdrawn.

I'm not going to state anything more about the topic except for leaving you with this from the AF instruction as I have previously mentioned when this topic has come up.

AFROTCI 36-2011 15 July 2010 (interim change Oct 2011)
paragraph 6.3.1.2
Do not enlist cadets that have not met physical fitness standards (EXCLUDING 4-year HSSP designees). Cadets must meet all terms fitness requirements prior to enlistment (DOES NOT APPLY TO 4/3-yr HSSP).

Being in the program for a full year as a HSSP and never passing the PFA is indeed possible, as in being in the program for a full year as a HSSP and not meeting the minimum gpa requirements. Will you be able to continue on after that, no, because you have in fact screwed yourself royallly. But suffice to say, it is indeed possible.

Not sure if the instruction has since changed.
 
I'm not going to state anything more about the topic except for leaving you with this from the AF instruction as I have previously mentioned when this topic has come up.

AFROTCI 36-2011 15 July 2010 (interim change Oct 2011)
paragraph 6.3.1.2
Do not enlist cadets that have not met physical fitness standards (EXCLUDING 4-year HSSP designees). Cadets must meet all terms fitness requirements prior to enlistment (DOES NOT APPLY TO 4/3-yr HSSP).

Being in the program for a full year as a HSSP and never passing the PFA is indeed possible, as in being in the program for a full year as a HSSP and not meeting the minimum gpa requirements. Will you be able to continue on after that, no, because you have in fact screwed yourself royallly. But suffice to say, it is indeed possible.

Not sure if the instruction has since changed.

So...according to the above the AF requires that non scholarship cadets meet all the requirements even though they don't receive a dime. The scholarship cadets are not required to meet the height/wieght, the min. PFT, or even the min. grades and they get their first year tuition. books, and stipend paid regardless.

The Army and Navy should only be so kind.

The AF needs to get all their paperwork on the same page to avoid confusion. If the above is not the case there could be a lot of very surprised cadets come the start of school.

As a side note, I don't think the question was whether or not a HSSP cadet could stay in the program, the question is whether they would get any of their scholarship money if they did not meet all the requirements, could be two seperate issues. Like I said...confusing based on the contradictive information.
 
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I think you are assuming that they do not do the 1st PFT until October. The way I read it was they do not have to PASS it until October. They administer it immediately and train them until October for the drop dead date.

No. It was said that we would PT regularly and be given a practice test but that the 1st PFA would not be given until October. This was for all new cadets scholarship and non scholarship alike. It seems that the system is meant to cater to the many walk-ons who may not be in the best shape. The way it was said implied that the there was something big OTHER than the PFA that activated the scholarship. In my account it says I owe nothing because the school has input the amount the AF will send, although the money isn't there yet. I do think it is very odd. I worked out hard this summer, did the Insanity Challenge, I was expecting to complete my PFA on the first day of class. The instruction packet that we recieved did say though that All HSSP recipients MUST PASS the PFA...Non scholarship cadets MUST ATTEMPT, but do not have to pass the PFA. Sounded like the scholarship would be suspended if we failed. I don't think anyone on scholarship who fails can skate by, the det's PT scores and selection rate for SFT is exceptionally high(They showed us the numbers through 2008). I'm pretty sure they'd be kicked out before 2nd semester if since they would have had to fail multiple physical tests between now and the end of the semester. It seems to me that they only want to administer the real thing once per semester and have decided that the fair thing to do for walk-ons is to do it mid-semester. Idk, I'll ask around again when I report to class tomorrow and see if anyone can clear up the confusion.

I was not saying that ppl shouldn't be fit and ready the first day of class. It's just that the dead horse PFA being administered the first week of class was beaten so many times that I was really taken aback when I found out my Det said something different. Couldn't believe what I was hearing. Now that it's mentioned, I'm not sure when I would get my stipend then, which sucks cause I was hoping to contract as soon as possible cause I'll be needing that. Hopefully there was some miscommunication going on... although, the people I asked were a senior cadet(said it would be around October) who was on scholarship and one of the cadre(gave me no date but said it wasn't for a while).
 
I know I'm referring to AROTC when I say this but what your talking about sounds a lot like AROTC.

In AROTC they have 2 recorded APFT's, at the end of the first Semester and one at the end of the second semester. Every APFT that is taken other then those two are diagnostic tests that don't count on the record.

When both my son's showed up for the first time to school they were given an APFT, granted this was not a recorded APFT, it was to validate the scholarship. The battalion would have the battalion wide APFT the first week of school, again this was not a recorded test but was done to see where everyone was at at what they needed to work on, this was in addition to the tests my son's took to validate their scholarships.

The battalion would continue throughout the semester to work the cadets toward the first recorded APFT at the end of the semester, they would take a diagnostic APFT once a month to track the progress.

The AROTC does not require waiting until the first recorded APFT to validate the scholarship, they just give all the cadets that are elegible to contract a seperate APFT at the beginning of school so they can check off that requirement and get their scholarship tuition, book, and stipend money when school starts.

This could be in fact how the AF handles their PFT, not sure because with all the different posts I'm totally confused. Best bet, ask your Det. when your scholarship and stipend kick in. Best of luck.
 
I know I'm referring to AROTC when I say this but what your talking about sounds a lot like AROTC.

In AROTC they have 2 recorded APFT's, at the end of the first Semester and one at the end of the second semester. Every APFT that is taken other then those two are diagnostic tests that don't count on the record.

When both my son's showed up for the first time to school they were given an APFT, granted this was not a recorded APFT, it was to validate the scholarship. The battalion would have the battalion wide APFT the first week of school, again this was not a recorded test but was done to see where everyone was at at what they needed to work on, this was in addition to the tests my son's took to validate their scholarships.

The battalion would continue throughout the semester to work the cadets toward the first recorded APFT at the end of the semester, they would take a diagnostic APFT once a month to track the progress.

The AROTC does not require waiting until the first recorded APFT to validate the scholarship, they just give all the cadets that are elegible to contract a seperate APFT at the beginning of school so they can check off that requirement and get their scholarship tuition, book, and stipend money when school starts.

This could be in fact how the AF handles their PFT, not sure because with all the different posts I'm totally confused. Best bet, ask your Det. when your scholarship and stipend kick in. Best of luck.

NROTC also handles it as jcleppe describes.
 
Non Ducor Duco it seems as if you got caught in the cross hairs. I think you have the answer you can't activate the AFROTC scholarship unless you pass the PFT.

The sooner you pass it, the sooner you will have a second to breathe a sigh of relief. Yes, only a second, because as soon as you realize you are okay than you will face the gpa issue, and job issue within the det.

Becksgirl,

Nobody in my mind was trying to antagonize you, and I hope you don't feel that way. They were just stating that what you are saying does not make sense.

I too pulled out our DS's paperwork back from 08, and it says the same thing as FlyingWildCatDad. DS had to pass the ht/wt portion and the PFT, plus submit the correct paperwork (birth certificate, ss card, checking account) to activate his scholarship. Our DS was taped every semester for 4 yrs because he is too thin. He has had to pass the PFT every semester too. Plus maintain a certain gpa.

I get what you are saying that it says so according to AFROTCI 36-2011 15 July 2010 (interim change Oct 2011) paragraph 6.3.1.2, however it states: (EXCLUDING 4-year HSSP designees)

The exclusion is not an exclusion per se, it is saying they abide by AFROTC requirements for HSSP designees, thus will not include them in this situation. It is not saying they do not have to pass it, it is saying this reg does not include that group.

Two different things.

In this case, passing the PT is a must to activate the AFROTC scholarship, but is not a part of the AFROTCI 36-2011 paragraph 6.3.1.2
 
I knew we could count on you to clear it up, thanks, my head was beginning to hurt.

It makes a lot more sense now you explained it.

I hope all the scholarship recipients are ready for the PFT on day one, a stipend is a terrible thing to waste.

Best of luck to you all.
 
Non Ducor Duco it seems as if you got caught in the cross hairs. I think you have the answer you can't activate the AFROTC scholarship unless you pass the PFT.

The sooner you pass it, the sooner you will have a second to breathe a sigh of relief. Yes, only a second, because as soon as you realize you are okay than you will face the gpa issue, and job issue within the det.

Becksgirl,

Nobody in my mind was trying to antagonize you, and I hope you don't feel that way. They were just stating that what you are saying does not make sense.

I too pulled out our DS's paperwork back from 08, and it says the same thing as FlyingWildCatDad. DS had to pass the ht/wt portion and the PFT, plus submit the correct paperwork (birth certificate, ss card, checking account) to activate his scholarship. Our DS was taped every semester for 4 yrs because he is too thin. He has had to pass the PFT every semester too. Plus maintain a certain gpa.

I get what you are saying that it says so according to AFROTCI 36-2011 15 July 2010 (interim change Oct 2011) paragraph 6.3.1.2, however it states: (EXCLUDING 4-year HSSP designees)

The exclusion is not an exclusion per se, it is saying they abide by AFROTC requirements for HSSP designees, thus will not include them in this situation. It is not saying they do not have to pass it, it is saying this reg does not include that group.

Two different things.

In this case, passing the PT is a must to activate the AFROTC scholarship, but is not a part of the AFROTCI 36-2011 paragraph 6.3.1.2

It appears that most people on this board pass information back and forth and take it as truth. I would love to caution those of you who are newbies to take advice sparingly. I was merely trying to let everyone know the facts in relation to the question of contracting for HSSP. You can take it or leave it. I do actually have firsthand knowledge believe it or not. We just left a Det 2 months ago where my husband was cadre for more than 4 years. My son is now a freshman HSSP winner and will sign his contract tomorrow. If I hear of anything to the contrary of what I had posted I will let you know, but I doubt I will.
 
becksgirl,

We bow to you, and I am not being argumentive, but than I will go back to my original statement.

Shame on the AF because this is ABSOLUTE fraud, waste and abuse of tax payer dollars. I am embarrassed beyond any belief of the AF. I am a ret. AF wife and a Mom of an AFROTC commissioned O1. Disgust is not even a harsh enough word for what I am feeling right now.

@900 scholarships are awarded yrly, assume an avg of 20K per scholarship. That is 18 million dollars of our tax dollars that can be thrown down the drain. Remember as you stated the cadets have 1 yr to bolt. You nor I, nor the AF knows if all of them will use the system. 900 can leave and get 1 freebie yr using AFROTC at their college. Heck, I should have known this and had DD and DS2 apply. Their stats were strong enough to be viable. I could have told them don't worry sign the contract and after a yr you can leave, but meanwhile we saved ourselves tens of thousands of dollars!

Even if 100 don't pass that is still 2.0 million. 50 it is 1 million. For me, with our deficit 1 million matters.

Like I said you could be 1000% right, but if you are I will be contacting my MOC tomorrow and starting a grass roots campaign to close this loop hole.

All I know right now is my DS's letter (08) stated the exact same thing as FlyingWildCatDad's. You must fulfill these things to contract.

Honestly, my scenario with my kids is exactly what you are stating. Remember AFROTC you can take the scholarship to any school. Get into Duke, get a Type 1, don't want to serve, but don't want to take student loans for 4 yrs. Take AFROTC scholarship for a yr. Your student loan debt will be 20K lower!

Do you see why people could be ticked by this? Yes, you may be right, but trust me, come Wed (tomorrow taking DD back to VT), I will be on the phone to our MOCs. I will be pushing this issue. I am pretty sure through social networking we will be able to garner attention.

OBTW I have been with Bullet and connected to the AF since 1983, Almost 30 yrs, never once did I hang my head in shame over the AF. Tonight I do for the 1st time.
 
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becksgirl,

We bow to you, and I am not being argumentive, but than I will go back to my original statement.

Shame on the AF because this is ABSOLUTE fraud, waste and abuse of tax payer dollars.

@900 scholarships are awarded yrly, assume an avg of 20K per scholarship. That is 18 million dollars of our tax dollars that can be thrown down the drain. Remember as you stated the cadets have 1 yr to bolt. You nor I, nor the AF knows if all of them will use the system.

Even if 100 don't pass that is still 2.0 million. 50 it is 1 million. For me, with our deficit 1 million matters.

Like I said you could be 1000% right, but if you are I will be contacting my MOC tomorrow and starting a grass roots campaign to close this loop hole.

All I know right now is my DS's letter (08) stated the exact same thing as FlyingWildCatDad's. You must fulfill these things to contract.

And I agree with you. Fraud is fraud, and I don't believe that the statistics would prove that there are actually individuals purposely trying to cheat the system. However, it can and has been done. I would expect HSSP winners to be upstanding citizens and truly have a desire to serve in the AF. But, there are definitely those who change their minds and ride it out for the required time in order to reap the benefits we have previously talked about. I will say there was a HSSP a couple years ago, actually a Commanders Leadership scholarship winner, finished her first semester with a (and I am not kidding you) a 0.4 gpa. I don't know how that is possible but she did it. She would have been able to come back second semester with only a conditional event on her record and continue with the scholarship but the cadre convinced her to "disappear" because even if she had gotten a 4.0 gpa next semester she wouldn't have averaged high enough to stay in the program. I also know of a HSSP winner who after the first semester decided that the Air Force wasn't for him. When he found out a month or so later that the government didn't pay for his second semester since he opted out before the payments were made he filed a grievance with the AG saying that he was mistreated in the program and they ended up paying for the second semester. We dealt with drug allegations, battery, DUIs, pregnancy, you name it. I think in those 4 years we may have seen it all!
 
Time out
becksgirl said:
actually a Commanders Leadership scholarship winner,

Isn't that a campus based scholarship?

As for the rest, yes, that crap happens, and it happens in the ADAF too.

However, this is about AFROTC paying months of stipends, book allowances, and tuition too because the AF JAG in their wisdom missed this easy out for yrs and yrs!

This is not just fraud by the candidate, but WASTE by the AF regarding the technical loop hole.

Bullet retired after 21 yrs ADAF and for all that time we heard from people; I pay your salary! Guess what, for those 21 yrs we paid taxes too! We paid our own salary according to that logic! I am now on the other side of the fence...AF gets their budget from my taxes and I want answers. How is this acceptable according to the AF?

This is absolutely, positively disgusting if this is the case for AFROTC regarding contracting. There is nothing you can say now to make me reverse my opinion.

900+/- cadets get scholarships, according to you each and every one can leave with no harm and no foul after their 1st yr. Can you guarantee that they won't bolt? Up to 18 million dollars+ a yr. is being spent for scholarships, meanwhile the ADAF lives with a smaller budget for operations. Jets are being cannabilized on the runways, because there is not enough money. Hospitals no longer offer ER because of cost cutting. OCS boards have been cancelled. However, heck let's throw money(millions) at AFROTC with no commitment and no proof the cadet is physically fit.

Do you see why people may find disgust at this?

As I stated before you can't guarantee that everyone is in it for 4 yrs., nor can AFROTC, but seeing this loophole brought to light is beyond any words I can find. All I can say is I am embarrassed. Again, if this is true, I am sorry that I ever defended them regarding AFROTC and their system. I can't. I won't.
 
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Commander's Leadership Scholarship is also a high school scholarship. My son received one. Type 2, 4 year nontech scholarship.
 
Becksgirl,

That was not my question. Is it an AFROTC HQ scholarship or is it a campus based scholarship for HS students?

The line is pretty definitive. AFROTC HQ is offered from Maxwell and can be used at any college in the nation that accepts Type 2. College based is only for that one and only college. I.E. you can't take that scholarship from Duke to Notre Dame.
 
Becksgirl,

That was not my question. Is it an AFROTC HQ scholarship or is it a campus based scholarship for HS students?

The line is pretty definitive. AFROTC HQ is offered from Maxwell and can be used at any college in the nation that accepts Type 2. College based is only for that one and only college. I.E. you can't take that scholarship from Duke to Notre Dame.



yes, campus based scholarship
 
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