He might drop out of ROTC

aglages said:
Wow. Seems like a lot of credits for a freshman ROTC class.
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They have a Learning Community(LC) for cadets at Ohio U that includes MS1 & lab, a seminar and a Public Speaking communications course - it ends up as 6 credit hours (quarter system, not semester). I'm glad OU is changing to semesters in his MS2 year, quarter hours throw me off. Wonder if Peridot's DS's school is quarter too?
 
Peridot, I was feeling the same way as you during Christmas break. My son was saying that he has until first day of school this fall to stay or leave. He's at a smc where it's mostly commuters and everyone leaves on the weekends. He hasn't been to a single party and always complains there's nothing to do. He's a very social person, so I do feel bad for him. I thought if he didn't do well his first semester he would be very disappointed and want to come home. Well, he did great! Over break he heard all his friends at regular colleges and all their fun stories. He even said that with his great grades he'd have no problem transferring to a school back home.

My main concern was dropping out of AROTC. He has a 4 year scholarship, room, board, fees, books, uniform, stipend. He gets in-state tuition for doing ROTC, and I pay that, so he has no student loans and gets a stipend and doesn't have to work. I didn't want to push him to stay with it just because of all that when I know in 4 years he will have a commitment to the military for it. That was huge. I don't want to push him into a military career if that's not what he wants. I talked to him about it and he said if he were to transfer he would still do AROTC!!!! You know what, suck it up princess!!!!! I think overall he knows it makes more sense for him to stay where he is, but still those emotions do come up. You're not alone. I think it's something most of our kids think about at some time or other.
 
I think it is important to separate two possible issues here:

1) I am burnt out and stressed out from a heavy class load, freshman home sickness, ROTC, and bronchitis all hitting me between the eyes (which is hopefully a temporary situation), and

2) I'm not sure I want to be an Army Officer after all

as I posted above, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts it is the first.
 
I'll throw in a cadet perspective. Second semester is just starting up, he's used to sleeping in all break, without early morning PT and he's sick. I feel the same way.

Ive been sick the past few days and ROTC is my least favorite activity at the moment because I just don't feel up to do anything. Additionally, after sleeping in all break and not sticking to a strict schedule, coming back to a structured life that starts at 0515 is taking a bit of time to adjust.

I would suggest to not pressure him as he's adjusting back to his college life. Just continue to be the parent and be supportive of what he chooses to do. If he doesn't want to do ROTC, don't put him down and threaten him just because he's realizing it's not for him anymore.
 
I will 2nd Bull's opinion.

He forgot to say it really stinks even more at 5:15 when you live in a cold climate and are outside when it is 28 degrees or it is drizzling and you still have to run in that weather. Or if you live in the South and run in 98% humidity.

If you have never been associated with the ROTC world, it is more than just take a ROTC class and do some PT. A lot more and it varies from det/bn to det/bn. People don't know when they sign up that they could be cleaning up a 50K+ football stadium as mandatory community service 2X in the fall, or have to run in the Susan G Kohlman run on a Saturday or mandatory dining in/outs.

And than comes the real shocker of ... you guys are actually racking and stacking us, and my career choice may be dependent on how I stack compared to every one else....I thought as long as I showed up and did well in class, it was a done deal!

That is a lot of pressure for a cadet to absorb as a 1st semester student while they also adjust to college life.
 
Pima really hit the nail on the head.

I personally never participated in ROTC and was not a Ring Knocker, I was a Mustang, was commissioned through OCS after making E-5.

When my older son sprang the idea of joining ROTC in the Fall of his senior year in high school, none of us had any idea how it all worked. I remember sitting at my desk one day looking at the Army ROTC site just to get some information. I saw the link to scholarships and checked it out. That night I asked my son how serious he was about ROTC. He seemed pretty determined so I told him to check out the scholarship. He had 2 1/2 weeks to get the application completed, and have his interview before the deadline. We somehow got everything squeezed in and he was selected on the next board.

At that point we were still pretty much in the dark regarding all the details of ROTC. Lucky for my son he had a good relationship with the cadre at the school he had accepted the scholarship to. They invited him to a weekend training event they were doing to see how things worked. He came home from that weekend with a wealth of new information.

Like many we thought that once you were in ROTC you just completed the classes, chose what branch you wanted and went on your merry way into active duty. That whole perspective changed after that weekend visit. He learned about the OML, active vs reserve, and branch selection. It started to become clear that this was going to be a 4 year competition and that just passing would not be enough. We discussed all of this as a family and he said he was up for it...then reality hit.

The first semester came with a few challenges. The lack of sleep, getting used to PT in the wee hours of the morning. The importance of serious time management. Add all of that to just getting used to being away from home and the rigors of college it became a bit overwhelming. On top of all this he had joined a Frat the first week of school. Now add the Frat activities and the fact that the kids in the house didn't need to get up at 5:15am and you can imagine how it all piled up.

He managed to survive the first semester and finished the first year with out completely self destructing. He really thrived in the ROTC activities, grades on the other hand did not come that easy, a 3.0 for the first year.

He seemed to get in a groove shortly after starting the second semester. We told him at the beginning of summer that year that he needed to make the decision whether to stay in ROTC or drop it before he started his sophmore year. He seemed determined to stay so we supported him.

Time management became a little easier his sophmore year, and now as he starts his 2nd semester of his junior year he has settled in rather well. GPA back up to 3.5, he was superior cadet last year and is at the top of the battalion OML so far this year.

I guess my point is that a rocky start is not uncommon, I think it can take some time for some kids to hit their stride. The biggest question I would ask him is if he still wants ROTC, does he want to be an officer and is he willing to continue to make that happen. If ROTC is the issue and he doesnt like it then just lay out all the options.

It would be silly for him to drop ROTC before the semester is over, if for no other reason then to finish the first year paid for by Uncle Sam. Try and convince him to give it his best for this semester and then look at all the options once summer gets here. There is a sense of accomplisment in finishing the first year, maybe once he realizes that he has one year under his belt he won't seem so overwhelmed.

This all brings me to one point I think all prespective ROTC cadets need to realize. ROTC is not easy, you earn that stipend they give you. There is a reason it increases each year, things get harder and busier, you are given more responsibilities each year. You may not be able to go to that big party on a Sat. night because you are on FTX. You will have evening labs and training sessions. You may not just have PT the 3 days a week, if you do ranger challange you will be up early all week long and sometimes on weekends. Once you are a MS3 expect PT 5 days a week in your second semester to get ready for LDAC, not to mention all the extra training for LDAC. You will not only have to keep track of all your personel stuff but you will now have a lot...and I mean A LOT of military gear to keep up. Just make sure you all go into this with your eyes wide open and be ready for anything, however hard you think it will be, it will probably be harder.

With that said, my son is having a great time, he has been able to finally balance everything pretty well and finds time to do most of the things he likes.

It gets better and you'll soon get into the flow if you give yourself a chance and take one thing at a time. Oh and one suggestion, leave the X-Box at home.

Good luck to your son, in the end he will make the decision that is best for him.
 
"...I thought as long as I showed up and did well in class, it was a done deal!..

As an NROTC Candidate I have to sit back and ask what some of these folks thought they were getting into?

Running in the cold and rain? Play Fall or Early Spring sports 7 days a week and maintain a 4.0 with AP classes?

Being stack ranked is a problem? Does not everyone assume this takes place in college in general and in the workplace? If you attend places like Boston University Business program, you have a peer review that counts for 20% of your grade each semester!

Cleaning a Stadium for Community Service? Places like Ohio State University made a deal with the University to provide this service and the ROTC commands get the money the 3rd party contractor would have received-- what a great way to partner with the ROTC program!

These programs are not the Boy/Girl Scouts....you have to go in knowing you will need to lean into the challenges, adapt and find ways to overcome in ways your non-ROTC peers can't imagine.

After months of hoping for a chance at being part of the NROTC program....I am just stunned at the amount of complaints I see when so many others would do just about anything to be part of this program, scholarship or not.

IMHO..Get Motivated, Step Back and look at the great opportunity the student has been given.....one many of us hope to have and strive to meet these....."Challenges...? "

We wish everyone well...we really do. Think back to the day you got that special note on the web site saying you were accepted -- how excited you must have been!
 
Being stack ranked is a problem? Does not everyone assume this takes place in college in general and in the workplace? If you attend places like Boston University Business program, you have a peer review that counts for 20% of your grade each semester!
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Time out!

Of course it happens in college and in the workplace.

However, ROTC cadets are racked and stacked NATIONALLY. That rack and stack at their ROTC unit is placed against EVERY ROTC CADET in the nation, not just BU. Or companies in the region.

Additionally, in the ROTC world they get what is left over from the SA.

PEER REVIEW!

This is not PEER REVIEW, your career is determined by AD officers! They have 20 yrs in, this is not a TA or another student in your yr group that grades you. In Corporate terms this is the employee that has the keys to the executive wash room! For AFROTC the CoC is over 50% in your WCS for your career assignment. The Cadet in charge of cadets does not write a rec...there goes the peer review aspect. They traditionally give insight to the Commander, but the Commander is the one that calls the ball re: review, not a PEER!

You have admitted you are a candidate, and not a mid. I am glad you have this position, BUT before you start throwing stones on how easy the life is. live it as a student.

Trust me, as a parent of 2 who are in college, both of them could not wait to fly the coop...October rolled around and they felt differently!

Be careful of what you state, because it can't bite you in your arse!

You will be amazed how deep your roots are planted when you live this life
 
pima said:
Additionally, in the ROTC world they get what is left over from the SA.
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I don't know how AFROTC or AROTC do it, but does not appear to be the case in NROTC. Per documents issued by NSTC, the % out of ROTC selected for Pilot billets is about the same out of Annapolis as it is out of NROTC -- 30%. The same is true for Flight Officer, Submarine, Nuclear SWO, SWO. There is a slight difference in billets for SEALS, with the advantage going to Annapolis commissionees.

Here are the Service Selections targets for Annapolis and NROTC for this year:

Selection / # Annapolis / % Annapolis / # NROTC / % NROTC

Pilot / 227 / 30% / 273 / 29%
Naval Flight Officer / 75 / 10% / 108 / 12%
Surface (Conventional) / 225 / 29% / 280 / 30%
Surface (Nuclear) / 32 / 4% / 34 / 4%
Submarines (8 women) / 132 / 17% / 143 / 15%
SEAL / 30 / 4% / 22 / 2%
EOD / 14 / 2% / 18 / 2%
Restricted Line / 22 / 3% / 32 / 3%
Medical Student / 10 / 1% / 18 / 2%

Total Navy/Navy + Marines / 767 / 74% / 928 / 71%

Marine Corps Ground / 190 / 71% / 269 / 71%
Marine Corps Air / 78 / 29% / 111 / 29%

Total Marines/Navy + Marines / 268 / 26% / 380 / 29%
 
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I will throw this in, because this post and the other post were strictly from a personal perspective.

I never had mommy and daddy backing me. I grew up poor, and I am still in my 20's. I enlisted. I never got the option to say, OMG this is hard, I don't want to do it anymore, and not nearly as much money was invested in me as in one cadet for one year of school. Especially if that kid is attending an out of state or private school.

I honestly wish ROTC's and Academies would take on the same agenda as enlisted. Suck it up, we have invested money in you, deal with it. You took a scholarship away from someone else, now either pay back all the money, enlist, or suck it up and deal. I think only two weeks should be given to decide what they want after Freshmen orientation and classes start, then you must make an obligation.

I did not have the option when I was 18 to just quit and in the end having served and learned that discipline, I have been afforded alot of opportunities as well I now bleed red, white, and blue. I have so much pride for my country and the honor of calling myself a veteran. Quitting to me, means they don't have any work ethic and they are not deserving of the honor to serve my country. And yes you can make that decision at an early age, whether you are not sure about what you want to be when you grow up or not. The best thing about the military is it affords you the opportunity to decide later in life when your truly ready and in the mean time you have a job and education under your belt. Oh yeah, and when you do decide what you want to be, you have something to put on your resume. And in what other job can you retire with full benefits and pay after only 20 years.
 
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I agree with flying. I was enlisted at 19 after paying my way through 2 yrs cc. I didn't get to just quit. I have since maarried for 21+ yrs to my prior svc army husband. Im happy for my kiddo and glad she has thiis opportunity but it is a privledge. I have told her this is going to be hard and she will need to &$%% it up if she wants to succeed.
 
P-Flying17 and AZMOM,

I don't agree. There is a significant difference between a 17 or 18 year old committing to the remaining 3 years of college and 8 years obligated service as an officer compared to a 17-19 year old enlisting for 2-4 years as an initial commitment.

The young man has some decisions to make. He currently has no obligation for completing the first year. It is the best for both the Army and the individual.

Even enlisted have entry level separation for just this purpose.
 
AROTC Parent said:
I don't agree. There is a significant difference between a 17 or 18 year old committing to the remaining 3 years of college and 8 years obligated service as an officer compared to a 17-19 year old enlisting for 2-4 years as an initial commitment.
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It may have changed since I was 17 but as I recall an enlisted persons obligation in the Army was 3 years AD and 3 years IR. True, not the 8 (4 AD + 4 IR) years that the ROTC programs require but quite a commitment none the less. Particularly without the benefit of 4 years of tuition. I guess the correct question should be whether 18 year old college students should be held to the same (or similar) standards of maturity as 18 year old enlisted personnel.
 
They would still have the option to quit, they just should not get a whole year to decide. If they surpass the two week obligation date, they should just be responsible to pay back the money given to them either monetarily or in service.

And actually it is an eight year obligation for enlisted. You have 4 years active (just like officer) and 4 year IRR (Just like officer). Same obligation. You just don't get a whole year to decide, hey I don't want to do this.

Oh, and a Lt starts their career off making more than an enlisted person who has 15 years in service.

If your not sure you want to obligate yourself to the military, then you should join the college program (which is for non-scholarship kids) at whatever school you want to go to, to see if you have what it takes to be in the military and if it is something you really want, opposed to wasting the tax payers money with indecsiveness. If your not sure about obligating yourself to our country and willing to work, then don't apply for a scholarship, it wastes not only money but people's time.
 
Wow I wasn't reall sure how to respond to the post by P-Flying17.

Let me first say that to degrade someone for having the backing of their family is at the least insulting.

AROTC-Parent is correct, enlisted do have entry level separation, so yes they can "Just Quit", and many do.

I understand you are a Tech in some capacity with the NROTC program, but you have not been in ROTC. Trust me the term "Suck it Up" is used quite often. This is not a Fraternity they are joining, ROTC is not easy, they earn the scholarship they are given.

During my time in the service, as enlisted then commissioned, training young enlisted and filling out the budget requests I would have to say you are off the mark as far as what is invested in enlisted personnel. Add together the pay plus training expenses it exceeds the annual cost of a scholarship.

The attrition rate of enlisted personnel far exceeds that of ROTC cadets.

I am sure no one forced you to enlist, so to say that this young man should just suck it up is a little short sighted.

The oppertunity was there for you as well, you chose to enlist and you should be commended for that, but please don't say you enlisted because you wanted to work for a living, it's way too old a joke.

There is a big difference between enlisting for 4 years AD/4 years inactive, and commiting yourself to 12 years, 4 years college and ROTC training, and 8 years military obligation. Completing 4 years of college while doing ROTC and keeping your grades above the average is no walk in the park. I realize that it can be 4 years active and 4 years inactive, or 8 years reserve. Many cadets ADSO during assesions adding 3 AD years to their commitment.

I commend you on your service, but please, think before you post.
 
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aglages,

Agreed. Enlistment is a significant commitment.

The enlisted commitment varies based on MOS and contract signed. Entry Level Separation in the first 180 days exists for similar reasons that there is no obligation for a scholarship recipient in the first year. 18 year olds in ROTC and enlisted are afforded the opportunity to 'change their mind'. In my Company Command time I processed two recently enlisted soldiers out with ELS. Yes they quit. They were not 'bad' young men. The Army of the 80's and 90's was not for them. They were not forced to continue. Their lives were not negatively impacted by this type of separation.

I know I do not want my son to be led to combat by a 2LT that is not committed to service as an officer in a decision made when they were 18 having completed one ROTC Class. The year granted for this decision is necessary for these cadets to decide.

Additionally, I do not want my college freshman cadet to continue next year if she is not fully committed to lead soldiers. She will likely continue but I am glad she is afforded this option as enlisted soldiers are afforded the option.
 
Let me try to ameliorate the reaction to my post content or prose. I never suggested the life of an ROTC Student was easy, I anticipate it being he toughest challenge I hope to encounter. As a candidate and having just turned 18, I probably should just absorb the content here and let the more informed make comments. On a personal note, I just find the complaints about the program, the sacrifices and this is harder than I thought posts to be in bad form and perhaps better done in private messages, in my humble opinion. I meant no malice towards anyone.
 
AROTC Parent said:
The enlisted commitment varies based on MOS and contract signed. Entry Level Separation in the first 180 days exists for similar reasons that there is no obligation for a scholarship recipient in the first year. 18 year olds in ROTC and enlisted are afforded the opportunity to 'change their mind'.
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Wow! In fairness my point of reference (when I was 17) was 1971/72 and enlisted personnel didn't have a 'change their mind' option. Looking back I wonder how many would have taken advantage of that option. Considering the times...it might have been quite a few.

Thanks for updating me on the "new" policy.:thumb:
 
Peridot said:
Thank you all for you input. Son texted last night to give us an update from the doctor. (He got more Rx, but is still OK for PT.) In the process he asked that we skype tonight at 7:00. So this might be first of our discussions to help him sort this out. In the meantime, I'll respond to some of your questions...


Yes. Last semester he started with 15.5, but dropped math when it was over his head. Ended up with 12.5. This semester's 18 is partially a "catch-up" and partially just the way it worked out. They won't be too difficult, it's just a lot of class time:
4 cr. French (this will be easy since it's lower level than the AP he took in HS)
4 cr. Stat (same, AP in HS)
4 cr Writing Seminar (mandatory for freshmen)
3 cr Social Psych (his major)
3 cr. ROTC

...

Keep the perspectives coming. I'd love to hear from another cadet or a member of the cadre somewhere. I'll read all day, but may not be able to reply until tomorrow. Thanks.
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Thanks for the feedback on the credit situation. Sounds like he didn't get correct advising when he ended up in over his head in math. Not sure if your school requires placement testing prior to freshman registration, but goaliegirl's did and we were surprised to see that they were recommending (but not necessarily requiring in all cases) lower level classes than she might have attempted otherwise. She accepted the guidance and probably ended up sandbagging in the class where she accepted the guidance. She took 16 credit hours including the 1 credit for ROTC (I guess every school is different?). She is taking 14 hours this upcoming term with yet another sandbag (based upon placement) class.

I'm not too worried about the sandbag situation as they are not directly related to her major. She has AP credits as well (also not in her field of study), so she has had a bit of an academic break this year that has made it less challenging to juggle classwork, ROTC, and varsity athletics (hockey starts the 2nd week of school and completes in March - a long season). She is ahead of the game, so she doesn't seem to be sensing the stress that your son is probably experiencing (behind the curve with earned credits and making up for it).

I'm going to throw some roses to you as parents who while concerned about his chosen career goal, have let him go forward with it and are not looking at this as an opportunity to spin this to calm your anxieties. :thumb:

I'm hoping that tonight's skype (goaliegirl frequently skypes her mom and talks to me on the phone) is a better read on his feelings about the matter. Perhaps the Rx will make a bit of difference in the discussion (if he chooses to take it up tonight).

I don't think this is a decision that has to be made now, as the option to drop exists until the first day of classes next fall.

Continue to do plenty of listening and just make sure he is communicating his feelings clearly at this point.

Thanks for the update.
 
Jcleppe said:
Wow I wasn't reall sure how to respond to the post by P-Flying17.

Let me first say that to degrade someone for having the backing of their family is at the least insulting.

AROTC-Parent is correct, enlisted do have entry level separation, so yes they can "Just Quit", and many do.

I understand you are a Tech in some capacity with the NROTC program, but you have not been in ROTC. Trust me the term "Suck it Up" is used quite often. This is not a Fraternity they are joining, ROTC is not easy, they earn the scholarship they are given.

During my time in the service training young enlsted and filling out the budget requests I would have to say you are off the mark as far as what is invested in enlisted personnel. Add together the pay plus training expenses it exceeds the annual cost of a scholarship.

The attrition rate of enlisted personnel far exceeds that of ROTC cadets.

I am sure no one forced you to enlist, so to say that this young man should just suck it up is a little short sighted.

There is a big difference between enlisting for 2 to 4 years and commiting yourself to 12 years, 4 years college and ROTC training, and 8 years military obligation. Completing 4 years of college while doing ROTC and keeping your grades above the average is no walk in the park. I realize that it can be 4 years active and 4 years inactive, or 8 years reserve. Many cadets ADSO during assesions adding 3 AD years to their commitment.

I commend you on your service, but please, think before you post.
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I don't recall insulting anyone. I apologize if it was taken that way. But let's think about the entry level separation. It is a separation that will follow you around the way a dishonorable discharge does, that will hender many job opportunities because you get a DD Form 214 that states ELS instead of those magical "honorable discharge" words.

When I made reference to not spending as much on me as they do in one year for an ROTC Students, I was comparing the first year of enlisted service and the first year college.
ROTC is hard work and it can set you up for all sorts of success in the future. But some sort of recourse should be applied if you drop. And if you want to compare it to ELS then they should get the same document as well then that an enlisted person gets, that stamps them not able to complete an obligation. Not only is your school being paid for, but all the staff that has a vested interest in you, as well as the training that you are going through, it all costs money. Money paid for by tax payers and I am a tax payer.
What I do now has no bearing on my sentiments towards dropping and serving our country.

I am also believer in that they should reimplement the draft and that everyone should serve their country in some way, whether it is as a civilian support or in the military. That also has no bearing on my job.

And of course it is always different when it is your child. I am the same way with mine, and I will back her no matter what decisions she makes. I work two jobs and go to school full time so she will not have to struggle like I did and having that service offered me that opportunity to be a great example of what you can do if you work hard.

It is not that I don't see your point because once your baby, always your baby, but sometimes you have to push your kids and back them in a way they don't always know is good for them, until it is over. Life is hard, and being able to do it is the biggest accomplishment. Being offered such an honor, I guess I don't understand why you would not want to make the commitment to serve and work hard to do so. There is no greater honor than to give of yourself.

This is a public, opinion driven, personal perspective forum, not an official anything. Where we can all voice opinions and give each other advice. I come to give advice and I am never talking in an official anything since when I come on here it is in my own free time as well as the other truly knowledgible people that are on here. Nothing posted on here can be considered official instructions, because it is not an official military forum, it is all advice. That is why I will occassionally PM or post a message to contact an official work number or email.
 
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