Hundreds of Air Force Academy cadets suspected of cheating during pandemic-induced online learning

[Tex232]

The military has to find a better way in producing and retaining quality officers.

That's not happening anytime soon, not when the services are more interested in meeting race and gender quotas rather than the quality of the individual.

 

[TheRightStuff]

That's not happening anytime soon, not when the services are more interested in meeting race and gender quotas rather than the quality of the individual.

 

[RedDragon]

For what it’s worth, Neither one of my sons would have been accepted to the Ivy’s. Their friends that went to the Ivy’s, Stanford, ND, UVA would likely have not received appointments to the SAs. They both had SA friends that turned down some very elite schools. My guys are now officers and I have confidence that they will make great leaders. SA admissions saw them as well rounded kids....team captains, multi-sport athletes with excellent grades which they had to work hard for...that made up for good, but non-elite Test scores.

 

[jl123]

The Ivies choose the overwhelming majority of a class on one primary criterion - academic potential. Yes, there may be different standards for different groups, but essentially they try to admit the smartest students overall, the smartest athletes, the smartest minorities, the smartest legacies, etc.

That standard is fine when the goal is to funnel graduates into Investment Banks, Consulting firms, Law/Medical schools, etc.

The academies have different goals, part of which is academic scholarship. USMA sets a goal for its class composition of 30% scholars, and I assume the other SA's have similar goals. That group can compete academically with the best the Ivies have to offer. One need only look at the list of Rhodes Scholars by college to confirm that point.

Many academy graduates would be well prepared to fulfill the mission of Ivy League schools. Few Ivy League graduates would be prepared to lead an Infantry platoon, with the exception of ROTC grads.

 

[MidCakePa]

That's not happening anytime soon, not when the services are more interested in meeting race and gender quotas rather than the quality of the individual.

Using some high-school level logic here, my take is that you equate segments targeted to meet race and gender quotas (if there are, in fact, quotas) as being lower-quality candidates. So you seem to be saying that women and ethnic minorities — the presumed subject of those quotas — are otherwise inferior candidates. Am I following you correctly?

No need to try to discern my political leanings, by the way. They’re probably not what you think. Not looking to get into a political argument — what @TheRightStuff alluded to above — but just trying to understand your point.

 

[A1Janitor]

That's not happening anytime soon, not when the services are more interested in meeting race and gender quotas rather than the quality of the individual.

Is it possible that meeting race and gender quotas has not hurt producing and retaining quality officers?

Did any white males cheat? Did any females or minorities not cheat?

 

[JP51]

That's not happening anytime soon, not when the services are more interested in meeting race and gender quotas rather than the quality of the individual.

I get where you're coming from but it's not really about the quota it's about who is looking and examining each candidate. If the person who is in charge really examines everyone isn't just going to let anyone in because they fit the description. I do believe this process can be improved upon where less bias and subjectivity is involved maybe completely ignore race altogether and focus solely on performance. But cheating itself isn't just something that is connected with a race, it really goes down to what virtues and morals a person holds and the will power they have to resist the temptation. Personally, I attend an IB school and I know that Whites, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc that cheat one way or the other and is a pretty widespread issue. I think the bigger problem is how this next generation is getting raised and how their parents are disciplining them to hold good morals and values.

 

[Tex232]

Did any white males cheat? Did any females or minorities not cheat?

Personally, I attend an IB school and I know that Whites, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc that cheat one way or the other and is a pretty widespread issue.

To clarify, I was not trying to say certain races/genders cheat more than others, in fact I wasn’t trying to address the cheating issue at all. I just think Army AI brought up a good point, albeit unrelated.

Though while we’re on the cheating subject, I’m not sure why it surprises folks to find out that the online school thing has led to this. Put enough temptation in front of someone and they’ll bite. That was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[flieger83]

I'm going to withhold judging the academy on this. I'm an "old grad" and I'm rather unforgiving when the honor code is involved. "In my day" if you violated the honor code, went before an honor board, and were found guilty, you packed your bags because you were leaving. The ONLY chance you had of staying was if the Commandant of Cadets granted you "discretion."

In my four years, I saw a handful of cadets receive this "second chance." Universally they had self-reported and most were such that had they NOT reported, the odds are they'd have never been discovered. If they were self-reported after someone brought it up...they were gone. As a doolie, we were required to read the honor board reports EVERY WEEK and sign off on them. Yes, they happened frequently.

I have been a commander. I would never forgive an officer for lying to me, or "cheating" or "stealing." Never. Capital "N." The trust we have to imbue in an officer is such that I have to have absolute faith in them. As a captain, I caught seven lieutenants cheating on an exam in training. Here's the thing: the exams were "correctable to 100%." If you failed one, you sat with the duty IP (that day it was me) and we went over the tech orders, etc., and I basically gave you a mini-lesson then and there and you had a go at correcting your answers. You did that, I signed you off, and you pressed forward!

LONG story short: those seven lieutenants were all academy grads...they stood tall before my boss, the Group Commander...also an academy grad. They all signed Article 15's and were then summarily dismissed from training. They were brand new pilots, training for their aircraft of assignment. They had to go find another job. I honestly don't know what happened to them after that but I imagine their time in service was shortened considerably.

And I never lost a minute's sleep about this.

I watched good friends fall afoul of the code during a moment of weakness. It hurt but...we all agreed to follow the code, period.

What concerns me here is that the academy will now "review the honor code." What? Is it too tough? Are we going to lighten it up...second, third, and fourth chances? I hope not.

Okay, climbing off my soapbox now.

Steve

 

[jl123]

Reviewing some statistics for USMA I draw the following conclusions. Other SA's are probably similar, although I am not familiar with their stats.

• All races and both genders are represented among the group of high performing Cadets
• The majority of appointees are appointed without regard to race or gender
• For the Class of 2016, 17.3% were Additional Appointees with WCS scores indicating they were appointed out of order of merit.
• Statistically, candidates appointed out of order of merit fall into these categories: athletes, minorities, women, soldiers (with many falling into more than one category)
• Recruited athletes by far represent the largest group that gets a break: 61% of the group appointed out of order of merit and 57.3% of the group of all recruited athletes. However, many recruited athletes do very well academically and otherwise - 42.7% didn't need help getting appointed.
• Women need far less help than they once did, to the point that the number needing help is approaching insignificance

SA's are far less "woke" than civilian colleges - let's hope it stays that way. I would hate to see the day when appointments are determined by identity quotas.

 

[MNRC2018]

Meanwhile the Washington Post writes another hit article on VMI about the strictness of the honor code, the drummout ceremony and wants to claim it is all racist. VMI was very smart to record the interview with the reporter and post the interview word for word on the schools website so anyone can read the interview and see how it was misrepresented in the last article. VMI will stand by the single sanction honor code ( expulsion for guilt).
They will consider changing a split/ majority jury ruling to unanimous and no longer saying the cadets name at the drum out ceremony. Those are under consideration but the single sanction expulsion is not up for negotiation. Since the SAs have softened the honor code it seems that the cheating issues have increased.

 

[Tex232]

I would hate to see the day when appointments are determined by identity quotas.

I think that day is already here, at least from what I’ve seen on active duty. Perhaps no quotas in terms of hard numbers or percentages (at least none that we know of) but there’s certainly a quota-like mentality when it comes to recruiting and retention, and I’m not just talking about the service academies.

 

[jl123]

I think that day is already here, at least from what I’ve seen on active duty. Perhaps no quotas in terms of hard numbers or percentages (at least none that we know of) but there’s certainly a quota-like mentality when it comes to recruiting and retention, and I’m not just talking about the service academies.

I can't speak to what happens with ROTC and other commissioning sources, what happens in the nomination process, or what happens on active duty - haven't been active duty for decades.

For USMA there are specific percentage goals, but not hard quotas. However, considerable resources and effort are expended to identify and recruit specific groups, which I don't have a problem with as long as those recruited are high caliber.

Merit is the only equitable means of determining winners and losers, at least for the majority of selections. Making identity the driving factor can only destroy an organization and country. Very simple - past bias can not be cured by codifying future bias.

 

[Heatherg21]

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned data and demographics and whether there were any link to retention vs those who choose to stay in. My gut says that if I were enlisted (never served, just opinion without real world experience), having some officers who maybe grew up like I did, or maybe looked like me, or had been raised in single parent homes might actually increase my willingness to stay in and serve. That while they may higher ranked than I, that we might have something in common.

The ranks of the enlisted across all branches are vastly varied. They come from all walks of life.

So too do the SA attendees. Our DS has observed huge variances in financial situations amongst mids. He has met some who cannot afford to fly home (he's on that bubble), those who send their limited pay home, those who have really fancy expensive vacations.
Many came from private school or prep schools, he and others came from poor rural public schools or crowded inner city public schools.

While I don't think that the SA's should choose candidates solely on demographics, or to hit certain data points, I will never think that. I do think it behooves our Armed Forces to have leaders that are truly representative of all facets of our citizenry. I do think those candidates should be fully qualified and have exhibited strengths that will aid in their success while at the SA's.

There are all kinds of skills and strengths needed to lead. In any capacity. I have met some really 'smart' educated people with lots of initials behind their names, who couldn't find their butt with both hands and a flashlight. Academics have their role to be sure, but it can't be the only measure. I know our DS didn't have that 1400 SAT or 35 ACT, nope. Yet he had offers of appointment to more than one SA. They had to see something in him, and many others like him without perfect standardized test scores. It cannot be the only measure by which we assess future success as leaders of others.
If that alone were the measure (as I think most Ivy's use those as primary), what kind of leader would we be turning out?

I am sure that this isn't a perfect situation, there really aren't ever those. But for hundreds of years the SA's have been turning out some pretty solid leadership. And hopefully, those who don't meet that threshold don't get past the fog the mirror promotion board.

Getting off my non active duty experience soap box. Good conversation in this thread.

 

[Tex232]

LONG story short: those seven lieutenants were all academy grads...they stood tall before my boss, the Group Commander...also an academy grad. They all signed Article 15's and were then summarily dismissed from training.

Those were the days when paperwork was given for legitimate reasons. You wouldn’t believe some of the ridiculous stuff paperwork is handed out like candy for in today’s Air Force.

 

[raimius]

I agree with Flieger83, in general. I do think there should be an option for a 2nd chance, particularly for 4 degrees and those who self-identify. If you are a firstie who cheats on their finals, I have no sympathy. I know of one officer who claimed another's work as their own. I'm never going out of my way to help them again, and probably won't trust them in much. It's sad, really.

 

[Devil Doc]

@Heatherg21 great post and I agree, everyone needs a role model and a person to look up to.

High flying young people in all sub-groups are also being recruited in lots of other places. The Ivys hand out full rides as well as the Stanfords, Dukes, and Georgetowns of the world. The standard, main stream student is still the super majority and colleges work fiercely to diversify their campuses.

 

[Army Al]

Citation please: You're saying that OCS officers stay longer than Service Academy and ROTC officers because other than a few specialized direct commissioning programs, the vast majority of commissions come from OCS, ROTC and Service Academy. Please show your sources. Also, understand that the Military Officer promotion system is based on a pyramid and there is a sharp drop off in number of bodies between O3 and O4. Officers who fail select for O4 generally HAVE to get out whether they want to or not. You may not like it but it is a fact.



Some would and some would not. A young person that I was mentoring last year (high school class of "20") did not get into USNA last cycle, partially due to a late medical waiver but she did not have an LOA either. She went to her safety school, Princeton .
I did approx 15 interviews for my MOC this year 13 of which were USNA/USMA/USAFA and all of them were extremely well qualified and about half already had acceptances to Ivies or Equiv (MIT/RPI/Duke) by mid-Nov


Feel free to suggest them.

Regarding disappointing retention of USMA & ROTC scholarship graduates and cost to the taxpayer can be found on this you tube video clip titled: Retaining U.S.Army Officer Talent 6:42

The Army will never closed down their 4 year college program in becoming Officers. But as the video indicates it's a poor investment.

No answer in the solution on my part, it's way above my pay grade. Never said OCS is the answer but we need a better way to keep quality Officers for the long term.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Regarding disappointing retention of USMA & ROTC scholarship graduates and cost to the taxpayer can be found on this you tube video clip titled: Retaining U.S.Army Officer Talent 6:42

The Army will never closed down their 4 year college program in becoming Officers. But as the video indicates it's a poor investment.

No answer in the solution on my part, it's way above my pay grade. Never said OCS is the answer but we need a better way to keep quality Officers for the long term.

OK, I watched it and learned nothing new - this is stuff that the Army (and the Navy) have been faced with for years.
curiously, I never saw anything that said that Academy retention was LOWER than ROTC or OTS as was alleged and
I was responding to.

The video fails to mention that this is a balancing act because if too many Captains are retained then the Army has to push them out
because the authorized (by law) numbers of Majors in each year group is MUCH lower than the number of Captains that were made
in that same year group a few years earlier. Numbers from 2nd Lt to 1st LT to Capt are roughly constant and that matches the number
that is needed for 2nd LT/1st LT/Capt billets. Where the drop happens is at Major and then at every rank beyond that. They only can
promote to the authorized numbers and BY LAW, the Capts that do not promote to Major will be shown the door. Look at
"DOPMA" which is the law that governs this.

As for ROTC and the Academies being poor investments, I'll ask by what measure? Maybe by your measure, my USNA education
was a waste because I left at seven years. However, I stayed in the Reserves for another twenty years AND spent a career in the Aerospace
and Defense industry building "stuff" that the USN/USA/USAF needed, wanted and used then and now. I know many of my peers
from USMA, USNA, etc who have done the same or similar.

 

[OldRetSWO]

OldRetSWO - I think you gave him more of your time than his comments are worth. Most of us on the forum know spectacular officers from every Commissioning source. The bottom line is that the contract is for 5 years. There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing a different path after the 5 years. Some of us spent our entire adult life in uniform. Shame on Army AI and the bitter comments.

You're probably right. He makes a specific allegation:

Academy grads and full college ROTC scholarship grads tend to leave the service much SOONER than other commissioning sources for decades.

Despite requests for references on this, he has provided NOTHING to back it up.