I think I don't stand a chance anymore...

That story of the Navy drawing pilots from USAFA has got to be the biggest fairy tale of the season.
 
Alright, but how is that relevant at all? Sorry if I come off as harsh.
 
Because those who were able to graduate from USNA and desired to become pilots, became pilots. Or at least went to flight school.

...Not all of them.

I have no idea where your BGO got that bizarre "factoid" about USNA needing to draw pilots from USAFA, but that's completely false. Every year a number of mids are turned away from the aviation community because there isn't space. The part about that being so because the most qualified mids got SEAL spots doesn't pass the common sense test: there are less than 30 SEAL slots a year. There are ~1100 mids graduating a year. Those 25-30 guys aren't going to upset the balance that much.
 
...Not all of them.

I have no idea where your BGO got that bizarre "factoid" about USNA needing to draw pilots from USAFA, but that's completely false. Every year a number of mids are turned away from the aviation community because there isn't space. The part about that being so because the most qualified mids got SEAL spots doesn't pass the common sense test: there are less than 30 SEAL slots a year. There are ~1100 mids graduating a year. Those 25-30 guys aren't going to upset the balance that much.

That makes sense. I'm curious to where he got that too.
 
Well, I'm trying to be more optimistic, but they don't accept kids because they are optimistic, they accept them because they are qualified, and being an optimist isn't a requirement.
 
Well, I'm trying to be more optimistic, but they don't accept kids because they are optimistic, they accept them because they are qualified, and being an optimist isn't a requirement.

I had to be interviewed 7 times for all my applications. I can tell you that optimism is something that they are looking for. It is more than answering questions and saying, "I want to go to the Naval Academy!" They are listening to everything you say and watching your demenor carefully. This is especially important when you get interviewed by a Blue and Gold officer, their job in the inteview is to essentially paint a face of you for the admissions board. If you go into that interview thinking and reasoning like you are now, he will know and so will the admissions officers as well as your congressman and senators. Let's say you do get in. If you don't use optimism, how long are you going to stay. I graduated with a girl who is a plebe right now. She was very worried about academy stuff our entire senior year. After talking to people who have been in contact with her, it will be a surprise if she goes back next semester. Speaking of confidence and optimism, I read story here about a Naval Acedemy candidate who was worried about not getting in because the year was getting late and he hadn't heard anything. So he went on a plane, by himself, went to Annapolis and got face-to-face with his admissions officer. He told the guy how he knew that he belonged at the academy and could take the challenge. A few days later he got a letter accepting him to NAPS. He is probobly either a 4th or 3rd class midshipman right now.
 
Regarding drawing from the AF for pilots, I think maybe they didn't understand UPT system.
Currently, there are many AFA pilots and Navs being trained by the Navy AND AF.
Whiting is a UPT base, and believe it or not it is Navy too. It is a joint base, just like Pensacola trains both AF and Navy for Navs.
Upon winging they don't go to the Navy, they are AF. It exists just to save costs in training.

Also look at Whidbey Island. That is a Navy base, but they have AF navs assigned there to fly the EA's. The AF nav does this as a 1x assignment, for some it counts as their jt. assignment needed for promotion.

That being said, on a whole, I agree the AF would not release an AFA nor an AFROTC grad to go into the Navy. In AFROTC, they do not have 100% selection for UPT. Financially it makes no sense. They spent hundreds of thousands to train these cadets, their ROI would be 0 if they did this. Additionally every yr they also commission out of the USMMA into the AF and Navy as pilots.

Every yr. there are SA cadets/mids that ask to x-commission. The process is not easy, and to say it is uncommon is being mild.

Finally, on this site alone, there have been several posters that were ROTC scholarship and released weeks prior to commissioning for silly things, such as 8 lbs over max weight. Gojira's DS is on the hook for 143K, he was going non-rated. If the Navy really needed them, like Hurricane stated, they would have kept him, placed him on the big boy program, thus a mid that wanted rated could have got a slot with no impact on the Navy.



bfrat,

I disagree with you, because I think what they are looking for is dedication, determination and commitment, not necessarily optimism. One reason they want to see athletics is for these qualities, plus a display of team work and leadership. Do you give up or do you stick with it?

The story you told wasn't optimism, it was desire to fight for it. That is what might have been the make or break. Optimism is part of dedication, determination and commitment, but what they are looking for IMPO is determination.

I agree in the military you need to have optimism, but there will be many set backs in anyone's career. It is what you do after you fall down that matter. Your dedication, commitment and determination to get up will matter, because when you are kicked down, even the most optimistic person needs time to get back to a happy place. The dedicated, determined, committed person understands that this isn't just about me, others rely on me to succeed. They are licking wounds, but still fighting because that is what drives them.
 
Last edited:
I agree in the military you need to have optimism, but there will be many set backs in anyone's career. It is what you do after you fall down that matter. Your dedication, commitment and determination to get up will matter, because when you are kicked down, even the most optimistic person needs time to get back to a happy place. The dedicated, determined, committed person understands that this isn't just about me, others rely on me to succeed. They are licking wounds, but still fighting because that is what drives them.

Reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite NROTC MO videos. It comes from a Sgt at OCS.
The best back home may be just good enough to barely make it here. So when you come here you have to manage your expectations both for success and for failure. You will fail. You will succeed. How you handle success and how you handle failure is a demonstration of character as to whether or not you have what it takes to become a marine officer.
Of course this is true for all officers in all services.
 
great quote kinnem, and because of it I will change my position...what the USNA looked at was not optimism, but the quality of his character.


off topic, but out of curiosity, how does the USNA admission boards work?

I can't imagine an AFA candidate getting on a plane and meeting anyone on the board since they only meet 1x a week. The RD's aren't on the board. I am not sure they even publish board members, and I doubt the RD's would release any board member name for a face to face. The AFA board meets every Monday. Even if they flew to the AFA, found the admission's office, the RD would have to allow them into the room for as one on one audience. Let's be honest, if that happens for 1 candidate, can you imagine how many Mom's and Dad's would be flying out to an SA with Johnnie or Janie so they could make a personal plea?

Hence, it begs the question is this story fact or I heard from someone who heard that someone told them that someone at USNA did this? The admissions dept would be taking numbers like a deli dept in the grocery store.

Again, I am skeptical to accept that story as truth, because the only ROTC branch that doesn't even release scholarship board dates is NROTC. P-flying has been known to post that it is not to be published.

I am not saying it isn't true, I am just saying, if NROTC is so strict regarding scholarships, I can't see a one on one for USNA occurring unless that candidate had an "in" regarding the names of board members. If that is the case, than it has to move from dedication to it is not what you know, but who you know.

No flaming please, just my 0.0197534 cents.
 
I did not say he met with a board member, it was his admissions liason officer. Secondly, I read that story on a thread in this forum. However, I it was a year ago and the thread may have been older than that so tracking it will be difficult.
 
great quote kinnem, and because of it I will change my position...what the USNA looked at was not optimism, but the quality of his character.


off topic, but out of curiosity, how does the USNA admission boards work?

I can't imagine an AFA candidate getting on a plane and meeting anyone on the board since they only meet 1x a week. The RD's aren't on the board. I am not sure they even publish board members, and I doubt the RD's would release any board member name for a face to face. The AFA board meets every Monday. Even if they flew to the AFA, found the admission's office, the RD would have to allow them into the room for as one on one audience. Let's be honest, if that happens for 1 candidate, can you imagine how many Mom's and Dad's would be flying out to an SA with Johnnie or Janie so they could make a personal plea?

Hence, it begs the question is this story fact or I heard from someone who heard that someone told them that someone at USNA did this? The admissions dept would be taking numbers like a deli dept in the grocery store.

Again, I am skeptical to accept that story as truth, because the only ROTC branch that doesn't even release scholarship board dates is NROTC. P-flying has been known to post that it is not to be published.

I am not saying it isn't true, I am just saying, if NROTC is so strict regarding scholarships, I can't see a one on one for USNA occurring unless that candidate had an "in" regarding the names of board members. If that is the case, than it has to move from dedication to it is not what you know, but who you know.

No flaming please, just my 0.0197534 cents.

Hi Pima. I wish I knew the answers to even one of those questions. I find the story a bit incredulous even if (or especially because?) it showed up on an earlier thread of this forum. I think its someone heard from their friend's cousin's brother-in-law's half-sister.
 
I like the saying "except the worst, hope for the best," because thats what I believe. I am dedicated and committed to the things I do, but in a country with over 300 million people, I keep thinking someone, maybe just with slightly better stats then mine, will get in/take the last slot. I'll continue to keep working for it, and I believe I have a shot at ROTC, but for NAPS, they will see that grade (D, or F) that I had for a semester, and say "nope, not good enough."
 
I really, really hope that you realize how competitive flight school slots are in any branch of the service.

You absolutely must kick the entitlement attitude and just bust your ass and do everything you can. It's a competition - never forget that.

In addition - someone else said it best. You should be 100% fine and fully understand that you may very well not get a pilot slot. If you can't deal with that possibility, don't even go for being an officer. When you're an officer, it's not all about you. The country's fighting forces are looking to you for leadership, not ego. An officer is always a leader first.
 
bfrat,

I am not trying to pick on you at all.

Couple of clarifications needed here for posters and lurkers.

ALO is AF, not Navy. Navy is BGO. Which is why the story now reminds me more of from a friend, who had a friend, who knew someone.

New posters and lurkers will trust that story is fact, and give them ideas, which does no good for them.

Secondly, there may have been on this forum a yr or so ago, I have been here for 5 yrs., and I don't recall it, if you can find the thread please link it.

I personally do not want people buying tickets flying out to any SA thinking that they will make a difference.

The fact is the way the SA board works is incredibly simple. Highest WCS wins. 60% of the WCS is PAR. 20% is ECs, 20% is Recs, etc. You can fly out, but chances are the admissions dept. is going to smile, and wave you off.

The SAs love, love 2nd, 3rd time applicants. MOCs too. The reason why they have a higher chance of an apptmt comes down to their dedication and commitment. They proved that they want it bad enough to spend another yr of applications, nominations, waiting 6 months chance for the chance.

It isn't optimism. It is long term dedication and commitment. They are in the eyes of the SA a better bet regarding BCT and C4C yr than a candidate with the same stats that has never left home, hence for that 20% subjective section, they score higher.

That is the system. In VA, Eric Cantor gives only a principal. For the past few years, he gives it to 2nd time applicants. That is probably because of what I just illustrated.

They proved that the TWE from last yr wouldn't stop him. In the story you talk about the candidate had to be 22. Chances are they were enlisted, and if so, their Wing King/Queen may have had a connection, thus why they did that visit.

You will learn in the military, it is not just about what you know, but who you know too. Many, if not most Squadron Commanders, DOGs, DO or Wing are By Name Request. Someone higher up said: "I want So and So". They interview many people, but the decision was made before the interview that So and So would be offered the job. The interview process was just a dog and pony show to make it on paper up and up.

That is a fact. Sorry if I tainted the illusion of the military in your mind, but it is true.

It is also true after you leave the military, especially if you are a pilot. How do you get an In with FedEx, Continental, SWA or Jet Blue? You call up the guys you flew with that are now employed by them to be your reference. You never stop networking.

It is a small community, and it gets smaller and smaller the higher you go regarding rank. That is why I say, maybe it did happen because as an O6 they all came out of the same yr group as the board, and most likely if they were an AFA grad they have a connection. It is networking.

IMPO it wasn't him flying out, it was he had a name using a connection to get the name, so the part of the 20% WCS scored higher.

Jaded? Maybe. Realistic? probably!

I stay here so posters and lurkers don't buy into hearsay, but facts. Sorry, if that offends you, I don't mean to.
 
Pima,

No offense is taken. I understand the point you make about chain of command politics and believe you. I just brought that example up from reference. And when I talked about optimism, I did mean the other characteristics you mentioned as well. I was stressing on optimism just because I believe that a candidate needs to present himself as positively as possible. If you interview and show a non-optimistic/cynical attitude, if I were a B&G officer, I would be concerned. If a candidate isn't showing that positive attitude, how do you know if he will be committed? Again I have only been through the process once and I am providing what I can because I felt similar feelings my sophomore and junior years. But again I don't take any of your feed back negatively and I appreciate the constructive criticism.
 
Last edited:
Matas -

The biggest battle anyone faces in life is not from without, it is from within. In your own mind and heart. You have made quite a few statements that I would consider: "pessimistic". You might consider them "realistic", as in the old saying: "a pessimist is an optimist with all the facts". I don't agree with that saying, nor do I think your statements are "realistic".

I write this because I think you should reevaluate the way that you approach the challenges in your life. Somebody above wrote that you don't want your attitude to become a self fulfilling prophecy. What does this mean? It means that if you lack confidence, optimism, a part of you will stop trying, and that stopping trying is what will defeat you, not you true chances.

I suggest you re-visit the topic of optimism, and its role in assisting determination. I don't know the answer to this, but I do know that the people I see successful in life and business, and the people I enjoy working and recreating with tend to be optimistic people.
 
khergan, +1 regarding the competition.

DS entered AFROTC in 08 with 110 C100s. Only 26 commissioned 13 got rated, and out of the 13, 11 went UPT. This det won best large det in the nation for AFROTC HQ last yr.

These 11 will go to IFS at Pueblo before UPT, where statistically 30% bust.

That leaves 8 on a good day that will report for UPT. 30% of them bust. That leaves 5 or less.

4 or 5 out of the 110 C100's that entered with him 9/08. Basically 4%. The frightening factor is air frame, especially fighter, because if you want a fighter, chances are you are looking at 1% chance as a sr. in hs. obtaining that goal in the AF.

If you are entering only to be a pilot, please do some research whatever branch you want.

Understand the hurdles you must clear as a ROTC cadet/mid to get your dream job. Understand how nothing is guaranteed and plan B must always be in place at all times. Contemplate what you will do if you need the scholarship to stay at your dream school, but want to disenroll from ROTC. On the flip side what you will do if you are disenrolled and only went to the school for the ROTC scholarship.

Parents talk to your kids. Kids talk to your folks, Finances are never an easy subject to broach, but you need to all sit down now.

AFROTC Type 2 and 7 have a cap. They don't up it every yr., you will be lucky if they up it while you are in college. However, the college will, and this yr as a HS student you are hitting the cap, understand next yr, they may increase by 10%, (common) and now you are 2K short. Keep calculating for 4 yrs. You could be tens of thousands short.

Trust me, that is what happened with us. DS entered with AFROTC and college merit. Freshman yr the cost was 28K. Sr. yr it was 41K. DD is a jr in state at VT. She entered and it was 15-16K, now it is 19K...FYI, it says @18K, but they get you on silly things like fees. The point is it has been a 10% increase every yr. My niece has had the same thing occur. It is typical. Be prepared that by the time you graduate, it will be at least 10K more a yr than when you applied...add in 4 yrs, you are looking at 20K in total. Don't expect ROTC scholarship to pick up the difference at the same pace.
 
bfrat,

I understand what you are stating, BUT who on earth walks in like Charlie Brown for an interview? You always put your best foot forward, you always enter optimistic. Only a fool enters with a pessimistic perspective. The only ones I can think of out of those are ones that don't want to do it, but the folks, GC, etc are pushing them, thus they are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. They could be very optimistic people on a whole, but destroy their chances because it wasn't their desire.

I am confused, I am assuming you are an AFA candidate. You know the term ALO, but you post B&G for Navy, not BGO, which is the correct acronym. Are you AF or Navy?

The thing is regarding SA or ROTC, once you understand the selection process for scholarships, you probably are in ROTC or an SA. Once you get that under your belt, you now have to learn the next hurdle, which for AF occurs @ sophomore yr. Once you grasp that you are learning the next, and that is career fields. Than it is commissioning, and reporting for duty.

I say that so you understand it is always changing.
 
Back
Top