Plebes Dropping Already

NavyHoops said:
I actually liked 3/C year. The academics do pick up with more hours and tougher classes, but I found them more interesting. I was also much better at physics than chemistry. Being able to nap also was a huge thing for me. I kind of enjoyed a year of having little responsibilities. I did really try to help my Plebes with pro knowledge, mentor the female plebes with hair stuff and uniform things, and really focus on my grades. My class was shot gunned after Plebe Year. I was actually fine with this as I really did not like my company culture my Plebe year and my best friend and I somehow got sent to the same company. I was also thankful that it led to being one of the companies that had a Marine Senior Enlisted Advisor. The one we had 1/C year was amazing. Speaking of extra drill... yes. Our Gunny, like all Marines, takes drill seriously. He cringed the first time he saw us drill. He politely dismissed the 2/C to 4/C and left the 1/C on the parade field after we did pass and review. We spent another hour circling that field. Every day at lunch the 1/C stood in the main hall way doing manual of arms. This continued for a few weeks with lots of extra drill whenever he could find the time. His point was its upon the 1/C to set the example. He wasn't going to punish the entire company. He was going to teach us, as leaders, to do this right, set the example. We then had to ensure to correct our Mids and check ourselves. It worked, we won every parade... no surprise.

For new parents... shot gun and scramble are two phrases that come up alot Plebe year. In some years USNA has scrambled or shot gunned classes to new ones. This has not been common of late, but it varies by leadership in charge. Shot gunned means all the Plebes will be sent to new companies to start 3/C year. There are as many opinions on this as there are plebes. For some it's great, others hate the prospect. Scramble means to take the entire company of plebes and move them a group to a new company. So they stay with the same classmates their entire 4 years, but a new company starting 3/C year. This has been pretty rare of the last few decades.

Glad to hear parents got phone calls and Plebe Summer starts soon!
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DW and I received a letter introducing DS’ Company Officer, and Enlisted Leader. I am curious from you seasoned hands -
1. What is the typical background for these men and women? Is it typically a long term assignment? Are they typically close to retirement? Is this role within the Navy considered a plum job?
2. How much sway do these two leaders have into the personality of each Company? You talked about the Marine above - but how differently do companies operate based on these two roles?

thanks in advance.
 
Others know better than I the specifics of experience, role and tenure. But I’ll say that they can have tremendous impact on the mids in their charge.

I’ve met DD’s senior enlisted leader, a Marine staff sergeant. Spoke with him a bit at PPW, and at greater length when we ran into him strolling through Naptown during the Dark Ages (he was in civvies, but he was still 100% Marine). Based on DD’s experience and those two encounters, I don’t think there’s anyone else better to inspire, guide or discipline my kid. He was such a strong and positive presence, and clearly interested in DD as a human and not just a mid. A really impressive guy.

Don’t know if they’re all that good. But so important for mids to have a great experience with enlisted leaders, as they’re the very people they’ll be commanding and relying on for expertise and experience.
 
MidCakePa said:
Others know better than I the specifics of experience, role and tenure. But I’ll say that they can have tremendous impact on the mids in their charge.

I’ve met DD’s senior enlisted leader, a Marine staff sergeant. Spoke with him a bit at PPW, and at greater length when we ran into him strolling through Naptown during the Dark Ages (he was in civvies, but he was still 100% Marine). Based on DD’s experience and those two encounters, I don’t think there’s anyone else better to inspire, guide or discipline my kid. He was such a strong and positive presence, and clearly interested in DD as a human and not just a mid. A really impressive guy.

Don’t know if they’re all that good. But so important for mids to have a great experience with enlisted leaders, as they’re the very people they’ll be commanding and relying on for expertise and experience.
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Thank you, and I suspected as much. one would hope there is a lot of scrutiny into who fills these roles. I am curious - how old was he?
 
SCubb said:
DW and I received a letter introducing DS’ Company Officer, and Enlisted Leader. I am curious from you seasoned hands -
1. What is the typical background for these men and women? Is it typically a long term assignment? Are they typically close to retirement? Is this role within the Navy considered a plum job?
2. How much sway do these two leaders have into the personality of each Company? You talked about the Marine above - but how differently do companies operate based on these two roles?

thanks in advance.
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It’s a normal tour of shore duty (I forget what Marines call a non-operational tour) for both company officers and senior enlisted leaders. The junior officers come from different commissioning sources and different communities, a mix of Navy and Marine officers. All will have been top performers, and will return to their normal career path after 2-3 years. Some may go through the Company Officer Master’s degree program for a year, then go to their company for two. The senior enlisted will also be top performers, a mix of Navy and Marine, with years of experience, and many will have their college degrees. Though some may be retirement-eligible, and may retire, most expect to be promoted to the top of the enlisted ranks and go on to roles as Command Master Chiefs or Command Sergeants Major. Both are considered career-positive jobs. Many senior officers and admirals/generals have served as a Company Officer, Battalion Officer, Deputy Commandant or Commandant.

They will all have their own leadership styles, which may or may not obviously influence a company’s culture. We could stereotype and say if a Navy aviator is followed by a Marine infantry officer, some culture shock might be experienced in the company. Just like the Fleet and Corps, the mids will likely experience different company officers, SELs, BattO, DepDant, Dant, Supe over the 4 years due to normal duty rotations.
 
SCubb said:
DW and I received a letter introducing DS’ Company Officer, and Enlisted Leader. I am curious from you seasoned hands -
1. What is the typical background for these men and women? Is it typically a long term assignment? Are they typically close to retirement? Is this role within the Navy considered a plum job?
2. How much sway do these two leaders have into the personality of each Company? You talked about the Marine above - but how differently do companies operate based on these two roles?

thanks in advance.
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Company Officers generally are 0-3s who come from the fleet. Most have 5-8 ish years of experience. Someone correct me, but I think they added a Masters program they complete year 1, then 2 years as company officers. Honestly, I believe they have really overhauled this program since I was there. Our company officers were mostly mediocre with a few really good and I had one that was worthless. It used to be considered a bad tour to have and be a career killer. It is not considered that anymore. Someone with more recent experience can chime in with their views. I believe most are good and head back to the fleet for follow on tours.

Senior enlisted are usually E-6 on up to E-8. Marines typically tend be SSgts or GySgts while they Navy tends to be Chiefs or Senior Chiefs. I had a great Gunny, a lazy worthless Senior a Chief and a solid Gunny. I had 3 Company Officers and 3 SELs while there. Like anywhere, they can range from bad to amazing. Most are very solid and great. I think they have increased the rigor on selection the last few decades. Some Mids will really connect with some and not with others. It can vary. The fleet is no different. Others will have plenty of views on this too
 
Capt MJ said:
It’s a normal tour of shore duty (I forget what Marines call a non-operational tour) for both company officers and senior enlisted leaders. The junior officers come from different commissioning sources and different communities, a mix of Navy and Marine officers. All will have been top performers, and will return to their normal career path after 2-3 years. Some may go through the Company Officer Master’s degree program for a year, then go to their company for two. The senior enlisted will also be top performers, a mix of Navy and Marine, with years of experience, and many will have their college degrees. Though some may be retirement-eligible, and may retire, most expect to be promoted to the top of the enlisted ranks and go on to roles as Command Master Chiefs or Command Sergeants Major. Both are considered career-positive jobs. Many senior officers and admirals/generals have served as a Company Officer, Battalion Officer, Deputy Commandant or Commandant.

They will all have their own leadership styles, which may or may not obviously influence a company’s culture. We could stereotype and say if a Navy aviator is followed by a Marine infantry officer, some culture shock might be experienced in the company. Just like the Fleet and Corps, the mids will likely experience different company officers, SELs, BattO, DepDant, Dant, Supe over the 4 years due to normal duty rotations.
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Apologies for the litany of questions, but this was new and unexpected to me. Last question - how much does a plebe interact with these two? Daily?
 
Staff Sergeants can really vary in age range. I had some as young as 25 and some 40. Some MOSs promote faster than others and it can depend on promotion speed, age they enlisted, etc.
 
SCubb said:
Apologies for the litany of questions, but this was new and unexpected to me. Last question - how much does a plebe interact with these two? Daily?
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Honestly not a ton. They will have sit down to start the year, they will say hi, check in and stuff, but day to day, they will have tons more interaction with their Midshipmen chain of command. They will get training from them every so often. A lot of drop in type of convos about how things are and about the fleet. The 1/C in company billets will likely have more comms with the Company Officer and Enlisted about daily ops, passing word, etc. If a Plebe is struggling or has conduct, physical, academic or honor issues they will see them a lot more.
 
NavyHoops said:
Company Officers generally are 0-3s who come from the fleet. Most have 5-8 ish years of experience. Someone correct me, but I think they added a Masters program they complete year 1, then 2 years as company officers. Honestly, I believe they have really overhauled this program since I was there. Our company officers were mostly mediocre with a few really good and I had one that was worthless. It used to be considered a bad tour to have and be a career killer. It is not considered that anymore. Someone with more recent experience can chime in with their views. I believe most are good and head back to the fleet for follow on tours.

Senior enlisted are usually E-6 on up to E-8. Marines typically tend be SSgts or GySgts while they Navy tends to be Chiefs or Senior Chiefs. I had a great Gunny, a lazy worthless Senior a Chief and a solid Gunny. I had 3 Company Officers and 3 SELs while there. Like anywhere, they can range from bad to amazing. Most are very solid and great. I think they have increased the rigor on selection the last few decades. Some Mids will really connect with some and not with others. It can vary. The fleet is no different. Others will have plenty of views on this too
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It depends on what community the Company Officer is part of. For SWO/Sub officers it's not a bad deal, but for any Navy Pilot/NFO, Company Officer is a career killer.
 
There are many great CO/SELs here right now and also a few that aren’t so great (and a couple who are loathed), but all have robust experience and qualifications. For SELs, all the Chiefs have to be RDC-qualified and all the marines have to have served as senior drill instructors. They come from a variety of rates/MOS’s. A big part of the SEL’s job is mentoring and guiding the company officer in addition to the midshipmen. The CO will have commissioned around 6 years prior to beginning the tour. They all complete a Masters degree in Leadership education and development in one year and then spend 2 years as a CO. I think it’s seen as a good assignment. In addition to their company duties they teach the introductory leadership class to a section of plebes. Every SWO and sub CO I interacted with went on to department head school afterwards. The aviators tend to get out when they’re done. (Someone told me that to be a career aviator you likely need to be a flight instructor for your shore tour—Is that true?)
 
Kierkegaard said:
There are many great CO/SELs here right now and also a few that aren’t so great (and a couple who are loathed), but all have robust experience and qualifications. For SELs, all the Chiefs have to be RDC-qualified and all the marines have to have served as senior drill instructors. They come from a variety of rates/MOS’s. A big part of the SEL’s job is mentoring and guiding the company officer in addition to the midshipmen. The CO will have commissioned around 6 years prior to beginning the tour. They all complete a Masters degree in Leadership education and development in one year and then spend 2 years as a CO. I think it’s seen as a good assignment. In addition to their company duties they teach the introductory leadership class to a section of plebes. Every SWO and sub CO I interacted with went on to department head school afterwards. The aviators tend to get out when they’re done. (Someone told me that to be a career aviator you likely need to be a flight instructor for your shore tour—Is that true?)
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For aviators, if you want to stay in, you want a production job after your first fleet tour. Production jobs are those that keep you flying and training new aviators. Things like FRS/HT/VT instructor, Test Pilot School, or one of the Weapon Schools. Company Officer as an aviator is great if you aren't planning on staying in the Navy, but your chances of making DH pretty much drop to 0.
 
I think 'Hoops experience is close to mine -- not surprising since she's just a few years after me (I think ). Experience with Company Officer's is hit or miss; some are really sharp and engaging, others can be jacka$$es. We had a few Company Officers with reputations as tyrants. In my day, a lot of the interaction with the Company Officer was on watch (and not just your Company Officer, but also the Officer of the Day). To be honest, I really don't recall much interaction with my Company Officer the first two years -- he was okay, just not very engaging. The last two years, we had a USMC Major, mustang type (prior enlisted), who was really good. He didn't get to hung up on a lot of the minutia that is common at USNA, and really let the Midshipman run the Company as the system is intended.

We didn't have Senior Enlisted at the Company level back then ... we had one per Battalion, and he didn't interact with the Midshipmen directly very often. I do think that addition of the SEL at the Company level is one of the better changes they have made at USNA. We had a presentation at one of the BGO training sessions I attended by a couple of Company Officer /SEL teams, and I was impressed by how the two worked together and complemented each others strengths and weaknesses -- something that is really important in the Fleet.
 
We had 3 Company Officers (1 USMC and 2 submariners). The Marine was great -- the submariners were terrible. Of interest, all went on to full careers in the USMC/USN, reaching the rank of O-6 for two and O-5 for one.

When I say "terrible," I don't mean as human beings or even that they didn't try. They simply had no idea how to lead or manage people. I thought that at the time, and now, nearly 40 years removed:eek:, I hold the same view. To be fair, they weren't given much if any training and I don't think they got much mentoring. Their fitreps (performance evaluations) were reportedly based entirely on where their company stood in the group of 36, which really wasn't fair. They were coming from sea tours (the sub guys) and mostly wanted to relax and spend time with their families.

It was a different time. My parents had no idea who my company officer was. They may have met him during PPW, but that was it. We had no SELs.

For parents, your mid's Company Officer is NOT his/her teacher. Don't call or email, etc. the company officer other than with a true emergency.
 
Kierkegaard said:
There are many great CO/SELs here right now and also a few that aren’t so great (and a couple who are loathed), but all have robust experience and qualifications. For SELs, all the Chiefs have to be RDC-qualified and all the marines have to have served as senior drill instructors. They come from a variety of rates/MOS’s. A big part of the SEL’s job is mentoring and guiding the company officer in addition to the midshipmen. The CO will have commissioned around 6 years prior to beginning the tour. They all complete a Masters degree in Leadership education and development in one year and then spend 2 years as a CO. I think it’s seen as a good assignment. In addition to their company duties they teach the introductory leadership class to a section of plebes. Every SWO and sub CO I interacted with went on to department head school afterwards. The aviators tend to get out when they’re done. (Someone told me that to be a career aviator you likely need to be a flight instructor for your shore tour—Is that true?)
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It may look different from where the brigades sees things but the real "hot runners" in Subs/SWOS are not hoping to get to Department head School - actually that's a given for a high performing Div O. Within the world of officer assignments, generally Junior Officer shore tours are largely "neutral" as in they really don't help (or hurt) very much as the REAL action (career movement) comes during Sea Tours. That said, if one looks at the career histories of highly successful senior officers as well as what the detailers tell officers who are currently navigating the system, there are some billets that seem to show up in the most successful. Flag Lt/Aide and later on in the career Executive Assistant, Detailer/BUPERS jobs and OPNAV N86/87/88 spots. Within the training world, flight training, nuke power prototype and USNA seem to be OK. The wide variety of training management, instructor billets beyond that are perhaps less so. This is as a career enhancing billet, not to say they are not important.
 
By the way, I experienced three Company Officers, an LCDR P3 pilot, a Submarine LT and a Surface LCDR in that order and through the lens
of my naval career, I'd grade them as D-, C+ and A++ in that order although the Sub LT did the most for me personally. As far as I know, the
first two did not stay in the Navy for full careers and do not have contact with the former company members. The final one retired as an O9
(VADM) and has remained in contact and friendly with my classmates and I.
 
We got the letter yesterday introducing the company leadership. I was happy to learn something about both the CO and the SEL SSGT. The CO did their masters in leadership at Georgetown and is a helicopter pilot (don't remember the specifics). The SEL has 14 years experience and has been a drill seargeant. It was a pleasant surprise to get the letter, I didn't expect it. I am sure they both have a lot to bring to the table for the company leadership and the plebes.
 
Thank you for everyones responses. I have a better picture. I never knew there was leadership inside a company beyond upperclassmen. Sounds like it’s a bit hit and miss, but if get a good one it can be life changing. My sons CO is from sub community and SEL is from cryptology and info warfare communities. Sounds like an interesting mix.
thanks again.
 
Capt MJ said:
It’s a normal tour of shore duty (I forget what Marines call a non-operational tour) for both company officers and senior enlisted leaders. The junior officers come from different commissioning sources and different communities, a mix of Navy and Marine officers. All will have been top performers, and will return to their normal career path after 2-3 years. Some may go through the Company Officer Master’s degree program for a year, then go to their company for two. The senior enlisted will also be top performers, a mix of Navy and Marine, with years of experience, and many will have their college degrees. Though some may be retirement-eligible, and may retire, most expect to be promoted to the top of the enlisted ranks and go on to roles as Command Master Chiefs or Command Sergeants Major. Both are considered career-positive jobs. Many senior officers and admirals/generals have served as a Company Officer, Battalion Officer, Deputy Commandant or Commandant.

They will all have their own leadership styles, which may or may not obviously influence a company’s culture. We could stereotype and say if a Navy aviator is followed by a Marine infantry officer, some culture shock might be experienced in the company. Just like the Fleet and Corps, the mids will likely experience different company officers, SELs, BattO, DepDant, Dant, Supe over the 4 years due to normal duty rotations.
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Funny what sticks in your head - I always got a smile reading about Admiral Locklear remembering his name from chow calls as officer of the day when he was a company officer.
 
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