Sexual Assaults

Buddy said:
"So I have no sympathy whatsoever to anyone who would raise any hint of wrong-doing on the part of the victims in these situations. Who gives a damn if they were drunk? Even if they begged for sex while under the influence a true gentleman would refuse to take advantage. How hard is that? "


Agreed but what is being alleged here is a crime and, if found guilty, the accused faces time in prison and the label of sexual offender for the rest of his life. The victims say they were drunk-- one admitted she was "passed out" drunk. If this case were being prosecuted, the prosecutor would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the sexual assault occurred. Let's say the defendant says the accuser consented but the accuser says she didn't, if, at the same time says she also says she couldn't remember what happened because she was passed out drunk, then I, for one, would have a hard time finding that the defendant was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's say they were both drunk-- why should the accuser get a pass for her behavior ("my verbalized consent didn't mean anything because I was drunk") but the defendant is not excused because of his drunken belief that her consent was sincere? I agree that the accused's behavior is probably not honorable or gentlemanly but we are talking about something else here-- a felony.
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You are going way too fast. Forget trying to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt for now. Let's start with the criminal investigation. Often times there is no physical evidence that can corroborate the victim's version of an assault and all an investigator may have to work with is "he said/she said." An outcry by a victim is usually enough to get the ball rolling. Might even get you arrested. So, without physical evidence who do you believe? As I stated in an earlier post, asking your victim to submit to a polygraph is a sure way to find yourself in the unemployment line. Crimes against persons are difficult to prove, property crimes are much easier...

Being accused can almost be as bad as a conviction. Remember Duke lacrosse? A sexual assault charge, even without a conviction can follow you around forever.
 
Christcorp said:
Wow; as in good observation in the inconsistency of the article and lack of trust in the mainstream media?....... Or Wow; as in you don't agree with my observation and you believe totally in what CNN has reported, and that you have the whole story?
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Agreed, not everything you see on TV is true, actually there's not much good reporting on any of the news outlets in my opinion.

There's always more to every story, it seems news networks are in such a hurry to get something to air in fear of being scooped that they neglect to check even the simplest facts. I think that it's less a matter of the media not telling people the whole story, I wouldn't doubt that they don't even know the whole story and are just rushing something out to beat the other news networks.

I think my "Wow" was more directed to your reasons for concern regarding the story. The underage drinking, alcohol in the dorms, underclassmen partying with upperclassmen. I just believe it's wrong to think that this activity does not happen.

We would like to believe that just because these young people are attending an Academy they are of the highest degree of Honor and Integrity, that isn't always the case and I think for the most part the Academies do a good job of weeding these types out. The uniform does not give a cadet/officer respect, the cadet/officer gives the uniform respect. Unfortunatly this does not work out 100% of the time.

NavyHoops,

I thought your posts were great and spoy on.

Christcorp,

I wasn't disagreeing with everything you said, I should have made that clear.
 
I think my biggest suspicions are #4 and #5. The one girl mentioned an entire girls team going on to pilot training and/or becoming marine officers; then she says that when she started the academy that she found that there's a good ole boy fraternity and that women are looked down on. Which way is it? Are they looked down upon unequally or do they get pilot slots and good careers.

The #5 was because the article said that after a "Few Weeks" at the academy she was invited to an off base party. Well; the first 6 weeks or so you are in basic training and you aren't allowed off campus at all. After that, the amount of off base free time isn't all that much.

I'm not saying that there isn't any alcohol or screwing going on at the academies on campus. Just that the way the article is written, is very suspicious.
 
The #5 was because the article said that after a "Few Weeks" at the academy she was invited to an off base party. Well; the first 6 weeks or so you are in basic training and you aren't allowed off campus at all. After that, the amount of off base free time isn't all that much.
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I agree with you on the Good ol Boy Frat reference.

Of course the story does not elaborate on how she got off Academy grounds....er go I agree with you that there is most likely more to the story.

As far as what goes on inside the academies, all I can say is that I'm glad they didn't have cellphone cameras back in my day, and I only took a couple class seminars at the USCGA, I could not even guess what stories would come from a full four years.
 
Christcorp said:
When a young man has sex that they afterwards regrets; because they cheated on a girl friend; parents found out and disapproved; went against their morals/values; or whatever reason for the regret; the young man basically has the option of "Pretending it never happened, and hope it's never brought up again". As someone who was less than moral at all times during my younger years, and when alcohol was involved, I can say that I went through those times of regret and had to basically pretend it never happened and hoped that it was never discovered or brought up by others. If it was.... then I would simply have to deal with it.

A woman on the other hand, under the same circumstances, could if they wanted to, play the rape card. Under similar situations with regret, they could pretend it never happened and hoped it never was brought up. But if it was discovered, they do have one other recourse. Sometimes the accusation is legit; sometimes it's a false allegation. It's almost impossible for a man to claim rape. Not that it can't happen, just that it's much less believable.
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Thank you for bringing this up. Rape is a crime of violence. Some of what I've read about on college campuses sounds like buyers remorse. I have asked my 3 sons over and over to stay away from both women and alcohol at all times. I kind of doubt they listen.
 
I have asked my 3 sons over and over to stay away from both women and alcohol at all times. I kind of doubt they listen.
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Now that made me laugh.
 
And again: "First weekend at the Academy" For a Plebe! Give me a break. Tell me when a Plebe gets a weekend.
 
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mom3boys said:
I have asked my 3 sons over and over to stay away from both women and alcohol at all times. I kind of doubt they listen.
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I think most parents would settle for their sons staying away from women and alcohol at the same time. The combination seems to be the bigger part of the problem...
 
If things haven't changed in the last 20 years, then I have to believe that there are a lot of sexual assaults happening that are going unreported. During my time at USAFA, I was assaulted by 4 different individuals in the 4 years. Every time, I didn't report it. Back then, there wasn't anyone to really report it too. Plus, 3 of the 4 individuals were friends, teammates, classmates, etc.

Before you sit there and judge me, I will try to tell you a little about myself. Despite these things happening to me, I graduated in the top 10 of my academy class and was a team captain my senior year. If I would have stayed in the Air Force longer, I am quite confident that I would have pinned on major below the zone. While at the academy, on active duty, and now as a mom, I feel that everyone greatly respects me as an individual. However, I don't think I respect myself since I didn't have the courage to report these individuals. I pray that they never hurt anyone else.

Assault #2 happened during SERE. Obviously, there was no alcohol involved, at least on my part. I had a hood over my head and a knife to my throat during the assault. I never reported it or told anyone because I thought it was part of the training. However, someone else must have witnessed it and did report it. To this day, I still don't know who assaulted me or reported it. I was called into the OSI several times and questioned. I couldn't identify the person. The only thing I could see was their jeans and boots which all the cadre wore. Anyways, I don't think I was the only victim. A few weeks later, several firsties got kicked out for an incident that happened during SERE, at least that was the rumor that was going around. My team captain and another girl who eventually became the wing commander, both of whom I respected greatly, went on a rant about how it wasn't right that they were getting kicked out, and were blaming the girls in my class. They probably didn't know exactly what they did or that I was one of the victims, but it was apparent to me that I couldn't speak up.

Assault #1 was during my freshman year (drinking age was 18 back then, and yes I was drinking but had at most 2 beers). I was at a team party and a firstie/teammate offered to drive me back to the zoo. I knew that I was in trouble as soon as he started driving in the wrong direction. That night, it was very foggy and cold. I remember thinking about jumping out of the moving car. However, because of the fog, you couldn't see the mountains which meant that I had no sense of direction. Besides getting injured by jumping out of the car, I was sure that I would get lost and die of hypothermia. So I had no choice but to fight him off as best that I could. I never reported it. I felt like I couldn't tell anyone on the team, and I couldn't report it to anyone in my squad for fear of fraternization charges. This same individual "stalked" me for the next couple of years. He showed up at athletic events the following year, he showed up at my room while I was on CONUS, etc. Whenever he showed up, I always asked someone to make sure I wasn't left alone with him. I do owe one young gentleman my gratitude, he was a 2 degree at the time, for standing their awkwardly even after this 2LT pretty much ordered him to leave us alone. But I think he saw the fear in my eyes.

Assault #3 was during my firstie year, but it really started out my freshman year. During our freshman year, he lived in the room next to me. I would consider us close friends. One night after he had been drinking, he pinned me down. I got away. After that, I avoided him on the weekends when he was drinking. Nothing happened again until our junior year. He was now dating my best friend. We went out one night, and I was the designated driver. My best friend/his girl friend got really, really drunk. After getting her safely to her room, he showed up in my room, pinned me down, but I didn't get away. By the way, he was a starter on the football team. That was probably one of the many reasons why I never said anything. And for some reason, I felt that I couldn't tell my best friend. Fast forward two years, he is now engaged to my best friend. When she tells me this, I tell her what he did to me two years ago. I thought she should know before they got married. We never spoke again. I guess that I was right that she didn't want to hear what I had to say.

Incident #4 happened just months before graduation. A bunch of the firsties in my squadron went out and got drunk. I was the designated driver again. After we got back, one of the firsties in my squadron literally tried to take my door off its hinges and get into my room. He was banging on the door, yelling, etc., creating quite a commotion. I think this incident was when I lost complete faith in my fellow classmates. Not a single person came out of their rooms to find out what was going on or to guide him back to his room since he was obviously very intoxicated or to see if I was okay. I sat in my room quite scared for what felt like an eternity, until he finally gave up and left. The next day, when I came back to my room at lunch to get my sabre for noon time formation, my door was so damaged that I got locked in my own room, and missed formation and lunch. It wasn't until they got me out that I saw the damage that had been done to my door the night before. I would have thought someone would have asked how the damage to my door happened, but nobody did. Now I know this isn't an assault, but it still wasn't right. It did leave me with some emotional scars.

Looking back at all these situations, I still don't know who I should have confided in except for possibly a chaplain.
 
Christcorp said:
I think my biggest suspicions are #4 and #5. The one girl mentioned an entire girls team going on to pilot training and/or becoming marine officers; then she says that when she started the academy that she found that there's a good ole boy fraternity and that women are looked down on. Which way is it? Are they looked down upon unequally or do they get pilot slots and good careers.

The #5 was because the article said that after a "Few Weeks" at the academy she was invited to an off base party. Well; the first 6 weeks or so you are in basic training and you aren't allowed off campus at all. After that, the amount of off base free time isn't all that much.

I'm not saying that there isn't any alcohol or screwing going on at the academies on campus. Just that the way the article is written, is very suspicious.
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If you read the official court document with the allegations (I'm sure it's online somwhere) you will also see that a few months after the midshipman's alleged rape (while, according to her, she was suffering from PTSD and depression) she rented a hotel room with 2 male midshipmen for the purpose of drinking underage and was subsequently raped again in the same manner as the first time.
 
America's Finest said:
If you read the official court document with the allegations (I'm sure it's online somwhere) you will also see that a few months after the midshipman's alleged rape (while, according to her, she was suffering from PTSD and depression) she rented a hotel room with 2 male midshipmen for the purpose of drinking underage and was subsequently raped again in the same manner as the first time.
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My replies were in response to the original post and the CNN article. If you want respond to those comments, that's fine. Did I read the official court document? No. My point is that there's a lot more to the story than what CNN posted. You proved my point. Did I say the allegations never happened? No. On the contrary, I said they very well could be true.

If you want to post portions of the official court documents, have at it. I'm sure there are some here who would love to discuss and debate them. My suspicion that you quoted, was about her being off campus after only being there a couple of weeks. I have doubts about that. Also that the one girl mentioned all the successful female cadets/mids and how they became pilots and marine officers and how such strong women they were. Then goes on to say that women are looked down on and that you had no chance of being successful. To conflicting. Comment on that if you'd like.

But you do bring up a point that if indeed in the official transcripts the one female mentions that after the rape that she was so messed up that she intentionally rented a motel room with 2 male midshipmen for the intention of drinking underage; "And supposedly nothing else"; then I stand by the fact that there's a lot more to this than some are seeing. And lets be real. Why would anyone intentionally put themselves back into the exact same situation that affected them the first time. Sorry; but there is apparently a lot more to this.
 
goldenlion said:
If things haven't changed in the last 20 years, then I have to believe that there are a lot of sexual assaults happening that are going unreported. During my time at USAFA, I was assaulted by 4 different individuals in the 4 years. Every time, I didn't report it. Back then, there wasn't anyone to really report it too. Plus, 3 of the 4 individuals were friends, teammates, classmates, etc.
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Goldenlion, I read your post and didn't know how to respond at first. I can't even imagine how hard it must have been to set aside what was done to you and to succeed at USAFA in spite of it. I am amazed at your strength and moreover your willingness to come here - a space that is far from safe to share something so personal - to give people a first person account of just how alone many assault victims in the military are made to feel.
 
goldenlion said:
If things haven't changed in the last 20 years, then I have to believe that there are a lot of sexual assaults happening that are going unreported. During my time at USAFA, I was assaulted by 4 different individuals in the 4 years. Every time, I didn't report it. Back then, there wasn't anyone to really report it too. Plus, 3 of the 4 individuals were friends, teammates, classmates, etc.

Before you sit there and judge me, I will try to tell you a little about myself. Despite these things happening to me, I graduated in the top 10 of my academy class and was a team captain my senior year. If I would have stayed in the Air Force longer, I am quite confident that I would have pinned on major below the zone. While at the academy, on active duty, and now as a mom, I feel that everyone greatly respects me as an individual. However, I don't think I respect myself since I didn't have the courage to report these individuals. I pray that they never hurt anyone else.

Assault #2 happened during SERE. Obviously, there was no alcohol involved, at least on my part. I had a hood over my head and a knife to my throat during the assault. I never reported it or told anyone because I thought it was part of the training. However, someone else must have witnessed it and did report it. To this day, I still don't know who assaulted me or reported it. I was called into the OSI several times and questioned. I couldn't identify the person. The only thing I could see was their jeans and boots which all the cadre wore. Anyways, I don't think I was the only victim. A few weeks later, several firsties got kicked out for an incident that happened during SERE, at least that was the rumor that was going around. My team captain and another girl who eventually became the wing commander, both of whom I respected greatly, went on a rant about how it wasn't right that they were getting kicked out, and were blaming the girls in my class. They probably didn't know exactly what they did or that I was one of the victims, but it was apparent to me that I couldn't speak up.

Assault #1 was during my freshman year (drinking age was 18 back then, and yes I was drinking but had at most 2 beers). I was at a team party and a firstie/teammate offered to drive me back to the zoo. I knew that I was in trouble as soon as he started driving in the wrong direction. That night, it was very foggy and cold. I remember thinking about jumping out of the moving car. However, because of the fog, you couldn't see the mountains which meant that I had no sense of direction. Besides getting injured by jumping out of the car, I was sure that I would get lost and die of hypothermia. So I had no choice but to fight him off as best that I could. I never reported it. I felt like I couldn't tell anyone on the team, and I couldn't report it to anyone in my squad for fear of fraternization charges. This same individual "stalked" me for the next couple of years. He showed up at athletic events the following year, he showed up at my room while I was on CONUS, etc. Whenever he showed up, I always asked someone to make sure I wasn't left alone with him. I do owe one young gentleman my gratitude, he was a 2 degree at the time, for standing their awkwardly even after this 2LT pretty much ordered him to leave us alone. But I think he saw the fear in my eyes.

Assault #3 was during my firstie year, but it really started out my freshman year. During our freshman year, he lived in the room next to me. I would consider us close friends. One night after he had been drinking, he pinned me down. I got away. After that, I avoided him on the weekends when he was drinking. Nothing happened again until our junior year. He was now dating my best friend. We went out one night, and I was the designated driver. My best friend/his girl friend got really, really drunk. After getting her safely to her room, he showed up in my room, pinned me down, but I didn't get away. By the way, he was a starter on the football team. That was probably one of the many reasons why I never said anything. And for some reason, I felt that I couldn't tell my best friend. Fast forward two years, he is now engaged to my best friend. When she tells me this, I tell her what he did to me two years ago. I thought she should know before they got married. We never spoke again. I guess that I was right that she didn't want to hear what I had to say.

Incident #4 happened just months before graduation. A bunch of the firsties in my squadron went out and got drunk. I was the designated driver again. After we got back, one of the firsties in my squadron literally tried to take my door off its hinges and get into my room. He was banging on the door, yelling, etc., creating quite a commotion. I think this incident was when I lost complete faith in my fellow classmates. Not a single person came out of their rooms to find out what was going on or to guide him back to his room since he was obviously very intoxicated or to see if I was okay. I sat in my room quite scared for what felt like an eternity, until he finally gave up and left. The next day, when I came back to my room at lunch to get my sabre for noon time formation, my door was so damaged that I got locked in my own room, and missed formation and lunch. It wasn't until they got me out that I saw the damage that had been done to my door the night before. I would have thought someone would have asked how the damage to my door happened, but nobody did. Now I know this isn't an assault, but it still wasn't right. It did leave me with some emotional scars.

Looking back at all these situations, I still don't know who I should have confided in except for possibly a chaplain.
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I can't tell you how furious I am after reading your post. As a police detective I am very victim oriented and so many people failed you during your time at the academy. And you are a victim. As so many other have posted rape is a crime of violence. I applaud you for being so strong. But your story frightens me as my DD is just finishing her doolie year at the academy. After I dropped her off on I-day I read "Skies to Conquer" that discussed the sexual assaults that happened at the academy. That scared me. It is chilling to hear your story. It scares me more. Thank you for sharing with us.
 
The case with the USMA girl was discussed this week very candidly. I will say that this young lady is probably going to be quite embarrassed if and when the facts are heard in court.

I was surprised that the most anger over the case and the TV report came from female cadets.
 
JMC0759 said:
I can't tell you how furious I am after reading your post. As a police detective I am very victim oriented and so many people failed you during your time at the academy. And you are a victim. As so many other have posted rape is a crime of violence. I applaud you for being so strong. But your story frightens me as my DD is just finishing her doolie year at the academy. After I dropped her off on I-day I read "Skies to Conquer" that discussed the sexual assaults that happened at the academy. That scared me. It is chilling to hear your story. It scares me more. Thank you for sharing with us.
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I'd like to think things have changed, since then. However, as the guy who lived two doors down from where the rumor mill stopped, I can't say for sure.
What I can say for sure is that there are plenty of guys who would be willing to help, if they knew about a situation.

Another cadet and I did the "stand around awkwardly" bit until the drunk guy from the bar decided he wasn't going to stay in the drunk girls room that night. (Not at USAFA)
 
tpg said:
Rape is unacceptable on all levels. I cannot justify it anyway I look at it. I cannot accept anyone who wants to say that a female (or male even) placed themselves in that position and should share some of the blame! No one deserves to have their dignity taken from them in that manner!

As far as this article is concerned, I do feel that most rapes at the academies (and the military in general) go unreported, just as they do in the general society. I also feel (Personally) that much of the reason for these unreported rape cases is because of the mentality that has been brought forth here in this thread….that the Female shares in the blame because they put themselves in that position.

This culture of blame, on top of the shame these victims already feel, leads many to feel that they will face retaliation and that is unacceptable. I doubt anyone goes into a situation with people they feel they can trust thinking that they will be raped! Therefore the “she put herself in that position” just does not hold water in my eyes.

I personally applaud some of the potential changes that are coming in this area and hope that more will occur. For starters, I find it unacceptable to hear about people who could have stopped a rape and chose not to. These individuals should be held accountable as a accessory to the rape and punished just a severely as the rapist.

Anyways, I guess I better end my thoughts here before I continue and get myself in trouble!
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Agreed.
 
I have to say to the members of this forum, thank you for your support. My message yesterday took me hours to compose, and I kept questioning if posting it was the right thing to do. I was actually afraid to come back to this website today, because I wasn't sure of the reaction my post might have made.

I'm glad that I came back and will stick around.

At the academies, it is really hard to report things like this. Pretty much, everyone is a friend. If you speak up, it creates a lot of drama that just makes life more stressful. I think the hotlines are a good idea.

My other suggestion would be for the chaplains to hold support group type meetings. I think victims are comfortable with telling their story to other victims. I really think the key is to get the girls talking to each other in an environment they feel safe in telling their story and not being judged. Once they realize that they aren't alone, maybe something else can be put in place.

As a mom who is about to send her DD off to a service academy, I do have worries. Hopefully my advice to her (most of which is from Pima...so thank you Pima) hasn't fallen on deaf ears.
 
goldenlion said:
At the academies, it is really hard to report things like this. Pretty much, everyone is a friend. If you speak up, it creates a lot of drama that just makes life more stressful. I think the hotlines are a good idea.
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I will be blunt, yes cadets and midshipmen are young and inexperienced, but there are at SAs to become leaders.

Honor violations are not tolerated even though "it is really hard to report things like this. If you speak up, it creates a lot of drama that just makes life more stressful."
 
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