Standards in Free Fall

[skyfox]

I might be a little late to this thread, but I disagree with a lot of this reasoning. Full disclosure, I did not go to AFA. I was an AFROTC grad. However, as someone with multiple overseas tours in the Viper, multiple combat sorties over Syria/Iraq/CDAG, and now moving on to the F-35, I think I can speak to what makes a good combat officer and what does not.

"Assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals" - because nothing screams teamwork more than "if you mess up, i don't care because i won't be punished!"

--- Ok I agree with you on this. Teamwork and wingman ship concept is important and I think group remedial training is a valid form of feedback to reinforce.

"Requiring all Four-Degrees in a squadron to indiscriminately move rooms by a set timeline"- I guess having flexibility isn't the key to airpower after all.

---This isn't "flexibility is the key to Air Power. This is movement without a purpose. Other posters have mentioned that this screws up cadets ability to study, sleep, live. You want max performance and learning? Allow for adequate rest. Don't hit me with "but in combat ect.". I've been there. I get Ambien to put me down, and Go Pills to get me up. The real Air Force has realized the importance of rest to the warfighter, why not extend that to USAFA?

"Cadet Military Training events will not be designed with the primary objective to reach physical conditioning goals." - obviously, USAF doesn't have a fitness problem. at all.

---If you think that these random events move the needle at all regarding actual physical conditioning goals, I have a fad diet to sell to you. Group PT is a very very poor mechanism for physical training. You can burn someone out doing all the pushups in the world, it is not going to make them stronger and can actually cause injury. Don't think I am allergic to working out, I compete in physique competitions. I just know from lots of experience that no cadet led group PT will be a positive net gain to overall physical fitness.

"While conducting calisthenics... cadets shall not conduct more than 3 sets of each exercise. Each set shall not exceed 1 minute of work and shall be immediately followed by a period of rest equivalent to the period of work (1:1 ratio of work to rest)." - when you are in a war, you won't have to do physical activity longer than a minute.

---I think this is a fine rule. I have seen more avoidable injuries with stupid group PT events then I can count. Do not say "but when were are at war". Have you been to war? I have. I credit group PT with exactly 0 of my accomplishments downrange.

"If a low/high crawl event is incorporated [in training], all cadets (including upper class cadets) at the training event will conduct the low/high crawl, unless on a medical profile." - because it's clearly maltraining if you don't do it with them. Once a freshman, always a freshman. You just get to decide what the group does.

---- This looks like a "Lead by Example" situation and I am all for it.

"Cadets will not conduct the low or high crawl in snow or on wet, uneven, or rocky terrain." - after he escaped from a POW camp in Vietnam, Capt Lance P. Sijan only had to low crawl on a field flatter than Kansas. And when his captors tried to catch him, they had to low crawl too, because otherwise that wouldn't be fair!

----Full agree with this rule. Low and high crawls have high injury potential and low reward. They are simply done to be painful. Don't hit me with "But POW's". If I am captured I will do anything I need to do to survive. We do not train to that extreme level often and when we do, it is under supervision of professionals (SERE). Show me a POW that would have escaped if only they did more low crawls at the academy and I will buy you lunch.

"At no time will the weight of the ruck exceed 20% of the individual's body weight." - when you are carrying survival equipment on a deployment, it'll never be heavier than (1/5)*[your body weight]. God takes care of the rest. Hope you can call in that 9-line, because you definitely won't have anything weighing more than a few books to help medically!

---- You are not training them in a CRO/STO pipeline. You are training them to be a cadet. If they are going to be calling in a 9-Line, they are going through years of training with professionals to be able to do that. Giving them a super heavy ruck is not your place and can lead to injury for no reason.

"Lunges are not authorized indoors." - I can't find of a reason for this, not even a comical one unfortunately.

---- Yeah that's a weird one, I will give you that.

"Squadrons are not authorized to require cadets to complete pushups/sit-ups upon entering/exiting the squadron area." - because we definitely don't have a fitness problem in USAF, and especially not at USAFA! How dare you suggest such a thing!

----- Refer to my previous comment that this does very little to move the needle on physical fitness.


The one thing I have learned as my years as a fighter instructor pilot is always have a "why" for doing something. That "why" needs to be grounded in TTP's, threat assumptions, understanding of systems, ect. Most of these rules seem to be for the physical protection of cadets. If you can't find a way to add stress without physical exertion, I argue that you are not utilizing all the tools you have.

I know this is a long post, but the Air Force has (and should) be looking to eliminate training methods that do not contribute to the overall end goal. If tradition is hurting progress, then to hell with tradition. Tradition will not keep me alive over Taiwan.

You do not have even close to a good understanding of what the next war will look like. I only have a very small idea based on my MDS's role in it. I do not need people who can low crawl for 100 miles. I need people who can process massive amounts of data quickly, prioritize the data under large mental stress, and can make a split second decisions because they understand the "Why".

If only the AOG and the PTB would be willing to put logic and proven experience before senseless, anachronistic tradition.

 

[a400831]

I was going to leave this thread in peace... but considering I have been called out in a very direct manner, I will leave my $.02

From Group 2 and/or 3: "Deviation from any portion of the Recognition OPORD will result in an LoN for the upperclassman and the Squadron Commander" -- I sort of agree with this sentiment of the supervisor should be punished... I'm just sharing this because it's the level of threats that upperclassmen are dealing with right now

Welcome to the military. We get orders we often disagree with, but we follow them.

"Contraband will not be confiscated from C4Cs during Recognition" <-- probably the most contradictory statement ever. C4Cs typically have to lock up their phones, watches, and computers during all of Recognition. Not this year, probably because PP sees it as hazing.

Agreed, that sentence is laughable and contradictory.

"Lights will not be dimmed during Recognition" <-- Generally, squadron AORs are modified in different ways to create a sense of seriousness. The idea is that returning to a familiar place will not set the tone for a squadron's Recognition. It would be like if you did BCT at your high school.

I will give you this point. It seems like an over-correction.

"Upperclassmen may not yell at C4Cs to create a stressful environment." <-- The entire intent of Recognition was modified *literally yesterday* to assess how C4Cs will do as 2nd LTs, instead of assessing how they have mastered the skills taught to them over Doolie year (oh wait, I can't say the word "doolie" anymore. A person in my squadron got a Negative Form 10 for saying "doolie" (and another got one for saying the F-word)).

Reference my previous post. If the only tool you have to create stress is yelling, you do not know how to create proper stress. Yelling is easy to tune out. Temporal stress, information overload forcing actual prioritization and thought, these are the things that create proper stress that one can learn from instead of either tuning out or shutting down.

"No basic wakeups will be allowed." <-- same intent as the previous point. Like that's fine, but then why have we been training them on Agile Combat Employment, performance under stress, etc. all year???

I will give you this point. Seems if it was allowed during basic then it is free game.

"You may not use the words SERE, POW, incarceration, imprisonment, or any verbiage pertaining to the aforementioned." <-- apparently just saying the word SERE is just as stress-inducing as going through the program.

You have not been to SERE. You are not a SERE instructor. Leave the SERE instruction to the entire career field whose sole job is to instruct SERE.

So, in short, events on Thursday were completely CANX, Friday modified beyond repair. And a vast majority of the changes have occurred - including the "intent" piece - within the last 24 hours. Saturday will be interesting. The idea is to just do the Prop and Wings ceremony and be done with it. We can't yell, we can't induce stress, we can't make it a memorable experience. And there's gonna be a ton of grads on here who say "make the most of it" but honestly the only way to do that *without getting disenrolled* is to make it a complete joke to everyone involved. That being said, I'm all ears, so if you have some specific ideas besides "do what you can" or "be creative" then I'd be happy to hear them!

Unless I missed something, I only read that you can't yell. I didn't see that you can not create stress. Yes get creative! Think! Secondary and tertiary plans are a way of life in the CAF. It is good you are seeing that now. Stop thinking about how it always has been done. Start thinking about the "why" and non-traditional ways of achieving the desired effect.

There's also probably going to be a few "I'm a grad from 1812, and these changes are all good because I never utilized them in my AF career" or "I'm was a fighter pilot, I never went to USAFA, but basically everything you guys have been doing for like 70 years doesn't make sense," but there is a TON of VALUABLE experience gained from creating an artificially stressful environment. And maybe people find the "When we're at war" mantra corny af, but to say that a likely near-peer conflict with China or Russia will not be stress-inducing, or that many of these traditions will not be valuable, is utterly ridiculous. I recently spoke to a grad who was a POW in Vietnam. He said that his experiences during his freshman year were crucial to his survival while a Prisoner of War. No, we're not at war right now, but we ought to be prepared for stuff that happened in our military's past. Sorry for anyone that was triggered by my saying "POW" or "Prisoner of War", btw.

Annndddd here is the call out. I am going to be polite, but direct, as is tradition in the fighter community. Correct, I did not go to USAFA. If you were complaining about the traditions changing and that alone, I would understand. However you keep drawing comparisons to actual combat and war, something I know a lot about and you do not.

You have no situational awareness about the real Air Force, Combat Operations, War with a "Pacing Enemy", or anything outside of the microcosm you currently reside in. I have never said that artificial stress isn't valuable. I create stress utilizing actual combat training aircraft every day of my life as a 11F instructor. You are complaining that you can't use physical punishments and yelling to make said stress. In that sense, you are in the wrong, and have a lot to learn about how to actually instruct. Use the tools you have.

I firmly believe, as someone who has seen combat, that these small traditions mean very very little in the grand scheme of your career. I understand that anecdotal evidence from a previous grad. The training pipeline is a world difference now then in the 70s. This is apples to oranges. Do you know what prepares you for combat? UPT/IFF/SERE/B-Course/MQT/Spin up. 3-4 years of dedicated training. If you think that a freshman year at USAFA is more important than all of that training, you are being willfully ignorant.

I am not saying all these things because I need to win an internet argument to feel good about myself. I'm flying CT BFM tomorrow, my life is just fine. I am saying these things so hopefully, in some way, you (or others on this forum) can learn from it.

Here is my final statement. You, a cadet, are implying you know more about what is important to winning a war then someone who straps a combat jet on every day. You had some valid points at the start that I acknowledge, but that last paragraph shows how little you actually know. I encourage you to listen to experienced opinions even if you disagree with them. It will serve you well when you actually enter the real Air Force.

Cheers.

 

[cb7893]

You, a cadet, are implying you know more about what is important to winning a war then someone who straps a combat jet on every day. You had some valid points at the start that I acknowledge, but that last paragraph shows how little you actually know. I encourage you to listen to experienced opinions even if you disagree with them. It will serve you well when you actually enter the real Air Force.

Why did it take 8 pages for someone make this point?

 

[severn]

... in anonymous forums, that's just it, anonymous. Data/Information ---> garbage in, garbage out

 

[a400831]

Why did it take 8 pages for someone make this point?

I try to let my students arrive at the conclusion on their own. However when that fails (or my patience runs out), a direct approach is needed.

 

[FalconDad2026]

I encourage you to listen to experienced opinions even if you disagree with them. It will serve you well when you actually enter the real Air Force.

Great post! Thank you.
The last sentences might also be applied more broadly after two edits...
"I encourage you to listen to experienced opinions even if you respectfully disagree with them. It will serve you well throughout your life."

 

[Osprey123]

I try to let my students arrive at the conclusion on their own. However when that fails (or my patience runs out), a direct approach is needed.

But what do you think about a system that sometimes and seemingly radically changes every two years? Incremental change would create a much more stable transition. i.e. Last year's recognition seemed to be a rigorous, cadet-led, traditional experience. This year the academy published pictures of cadets making snowmen and snow forts and drinking hot cocoa for the first two scheduled days of Recognition. Cadets posting here said the final day requiring supervision. By design, the method of change, sudden rather than incremental, would be challenging for any community culture.

 

[jack42405]

I didn't see that you can not create stress. Yes get creative! Think!

I think this is good advice; however, we were specifically told not to be creative. In a meeting of all the squadron MAE cadets we were told "do not try and get creative, it's not worth your commission".
I agree that there are a lot of different ways to create stress; however, executing the plan we were given, nothing created stress and we were under constant threats that if you deviated from the plan at all you would be kicked out.

 

[Maybe_A_Dreamer]

Reporting to you live on the ground of USAFA: it's pretty much CANX this time around.

I feel comfortable sharing this information because, although Recognition is generally kept secret, there is absolutely no way it will ever happen like it has this year. Either it will go back to normal or it will be CANX entirely.

Recognition was cancelled for all of yesterday due to a snowstorm. Although Recognition still continued in similar conditions in 2006, 2013, and 2016, PP does not trust us to run recognition; because they can't get on base to supervise, we are not allowed to do anything. This is the same for this morning. Recognition events will not start until 1130 due to a delay. Additionally, we will be doing an Inclement Weather (IW) Plan.

Here are some changes within the last 24 hours:

"Deviation from any portion of the Recognition OPORD will result in an LoN" (a LoN is a "Letter of Notification" which basically means presumptive disenrollment) <-- I get the sentiment here, but in the fog of a stressful environment there's bound to be some deviation from the set plan. Current feeling among most upperclassmen is we want to make a meaningful experience for the C4Cs, but with PP breathing down our necks constantly we are basically frozen, afraid to make any move.

From Group 2 and/or 3: "Deviation from any portion of the Recognition OPORD will result in an LoN for the upperclassman and the Squadron Commander" -- I sort of agree with this sentiment of the supervisor should be punished... I'm just sharing this because it's the level of threats that upperclassmen are dealing with right now

"Contraband will not be confiscated from C4Cs during Recognition" <-- probably the most contradictory statement ever. C4Cs typically have to lock up their phones, watches, and computers during all of Recognition. Not this year, probably because PP sees it as hazing.

"Lights will not be dimmed during Recognition" <-- Generally, squadron AORs are modified in different ways to create a sense of seriousness. The idea is that returning to a familiar place will not set the tone for a squadron's Recognition. It would be like if you did BCT at your high school.

"Upperclassmen may not yell at C4Cs to create a stressful environment." <-- The entire intent of Recognition was modified *literally yesterday* to assess how C4Cs will do as 2nd LTs, instead of assessing how they have mastered the skills taught to them over Doolie year (oh wait, I can't say the word "doolie" anymore. A person in my squadron got a Negative Form 10 for saying "doolie" (and another got one for saying the F-word)).

"No basic wakeups will be allowed." <-- same intent as the previous point. Like that's fine, but then why have we been training them on Agile Combat Employment, performance under stress, etc. all year???

"You may not use the words SERE, POW, incarceration, imprisonment, or any verbiage pertaining to the aforementioned." <-- apparently just saying the word SERE is just as stress-inducing as going through the program.

So, in short, events on Thursday were completely CANX, Friday modified beyond repair. And a vast majority of the changes have occurred - including the "intent" piece - within the last 24 hours. Saturday will be interesting. The idea is to just do the Prop and Wings ceremony and be done with it. We can't yell, we can't induce stress, we can't make it a memorable experience. And there's gonna be a ton of grads on here who say "make the most of it" but honestly the only way to do that *without getting disenrolled* is to make it a complete joke to everyone involved. That being said, I'm all ears, so if you have some specific ideas besides "do what you can" or "be creative" then I'd be happy to hear them!

There's also probably going to be a few "I'm a grad from 1812, and these changes are all good because I never utilized them in my AF career" or "I'm was a fighter pilot, I never went to USAFA, but basically everything you guys have been doing for like 70 years doesn't make sense," but there is a TON of VALUABLE experience gained from creating an artificially stressful environment. And maybe people find the "When we're at war" mantra corny af, but to say that a likely near-peer conflict with China or Russia will not be stress-inducing, or that many of these traditions will not be valuable, is utterly ridiculous. I recently spoke to a grad who was a POW in Vietnam. He said that his experiences during his freshman year were crucial to his survival while a Prisoner of War. No, we're not at war right now, but we ought to be prepared for stuff that happened in our military's past. Sorry for anyone that was triggered by my saying "POW" or "Prisoner of War", btw.

General Moga, our previous highly-respected Commandant, said the following about doing hard things at USAFA: "Every cadet that leaves this institution, regardless of ending up in an operational career field or not, has to understand and embrace the warfighter state of mind — the warfighter mentality. Whether they end up in combat or supporting those who do, that mentality will serve them well throughout their careers and throughout their lives." At the end of the day, everything that the USAFA of yesterday did for CW, especially for the C4Cs, helped them build this warfighter mentality. It's sad to see a lot of this go away for the current freshmen.

Contraband was, in fact, confiscated during recognition. The lights were dimmed. Yelling was allowed, but it had to be a certain distance from the C4C's face. POWs and imprisonment were mentioned, and had heavy emphasis.

I don't know where you're getting your info from, but much of this is simply wrong, or not true in practice.

 

[FlyFalcon]

Contraband was, in fact, confiscated during recognition. The lights were dimmed. Yelling was allowed, but it had to be a certain distance from the C4C's face. POWs and imprisonment were mentioned, and had heavy emphasis.

I don't know where you're getting your info from, but much of this is simply wrong, or not true in practice.

Depends on squadron, mine did have their contraband. Yelling was not allowed, no pows where mention and especially not imprisonment. Group 1 and 4 ( 4 still had no dimmed lights) had the least amount of restrictions while 2 and 3 had many. One squadron was not allowed to talk about death at all (for obvious reasons however due to their situation).

 

[Maybe_A_Dreamer]

Depends on squadron, mine did have their contraband. Yelling was not allowed, no pows where mention and especially not imprisonment. Group 1 and 4 ( 4 still had no dimmed lights) had the least amount of restrictions while 2 and 3 had many. One squadron was not allowed to talk about death at all (for obvious reasons however due to their situation).

I'm in group two. One of the central events was about POWs. Clearly, it's squad-dependent and has nothing to do with the academy as a whole.

 

[level11]

To quite be honest, I’m a little taken aback by the airing of dirty laundry in a relatively open and public forum.

Every SA alum - myself included - thinks that they had the last real plebe/swab/doolie/rook/knob year.

Naval etiquette taught us to keep wardroom/officers mess business inside the confines of the wardroom/officers mess. We were expected to not air our grievances in public at the risk of embarrassing ourselves and our command.

The vast majority of visitors to this forum are civilians that have no connection to the military whatsoever. People of all walks come here to educate themselves about all manner of commissioning programs. Parents, students, teachers, guidance counselors, and alums of all flavors - most of them are voters and taxpayers.

Just a casual observation from a Grumpy Old Grad.

Bingo!
These forums are public, readable and comes up on Google searches, often at the top.

With that reminder out of the way, as a civilian, I'm a nobody among the military. I've no rank, training, I don't need to salute anyone, ever. Despite being a civilian - a nobody, I and millions of others like me, are who the military serves, regardless of rank. Even your Commander in Chief answers to us - we the people. I don't think you need to be at the Academy to see the decline. Take a look at the social media post from today by USAFA on FB. I get it. They're proud of their alum being crowned Miss America. Yay, go team. Why is USAFA on her promo tours so much? Why did they post a pic of Miss North Carolina duck lipped in an AF glider? What is the image of the USAF, and our Armed Forces are they trying to promote? Why isn't USAFA promoting military service after graduation like the vast majority of the cadets rather than a beauty pageant, which was socially 'cancelled' in light of the women empowerment movement not that long ago, along with pageant controversies circa 2022? Is recruiting and USAFA Admissions going to update their materials to say, "upon graduation, 2nd Lts are free to make a couple of millions as an influencer, and YouTuber?" Sephora wants to have you as their spokesperson upon graduation? We're cool with that. The Pentagon will just let China, Russia, Haiti, whomever know to hang out and wait while you fulfill that contract. How does that message encourage morale upon the student body, most of whom will be going active duty immediately after graduation?

While I agree, it's not the best idea to air dirty laundry in public, but I also appreciate the disclosure. It also makes me think: who is listening to the cadets? Who is advocating for them? By airing it here, they obviously feel helpless, unseen, and unheard. What are we promoting if the "old guard" if you will, are poo pooing them when they are trapped in a pressure cooker with no outlet, and no one to listen to them? If you want to talk about modernization, well hello! Anti-bullying, advocacy, listening, mental health, are all modern things that's pretty trendy, more so than Miss America, and while there have been efforts within the military, no branch has fully embraced it yet. Those of you who are old grads have been trained, and at the bare minimum, your experience, and wisdom should enable you to know better, but there are literally old grads, officers, leaders in this very thread telling the open public to not listen to cadets, who are people too. So why would any teacher, counselor, parents, etc even suggest a service academy or any form of military service? It's not news that enlistments and retention numbers are way down. Perhaps it's time for some self reflection, and instead of saying, "don't listen to the 1 or 2 cadets who are complaining. They know nothing" and start looking at the big picture and seeing what those of us who are seasoned adults can listen, and help those who will be one day, in the very near future, be expected to lead all of us. As a civilian, it's disheartening to see our military service members treated this way. They, including cadets, deserve better. We all do. None of us need to crawl through Jacks, or see combat to do better.

 

[a400831]

Bingo!
These forums are public, readable and comes up on Google searches, often at the top.

With that reminder out of the way, as a civilian, I'm a nobody among the military. I've no rank, training, I don't need to salute anyone, ever. Despite being a civilian - a nobody, I and millions of others like me, are who the military serves, regardless of rank. Even your Commander in Chief answers to us - we the people. I don't think you need to be at the Academy to see the decline. Take a look at the social media post from today by USAFA on FB. I get it. They're proud of their alum being crowned Miss America. Yay, go team. Why is USAFA on her promo tours so much? Why did they post a pic of Miss North Carolina duck lipped in an AF glider? What is the image of the USAF, and our Armed Forces are they trying to promote? Why isn't USAFA promoting military service after graduation like the vast majority of the cadets rather than a beauty pageant, which was socially 'cancelled' in light of the women empowerment movement not that long ago, along with pageant controversies circa 2022? Is recruiting and USAFA Admissions going to update their materials to say, "upon graduation, 2nd Lts are free to make a couple of millions as an influencer, and YouTuber?" Sephora wants to have you as their spokesperson upon graduation? We're cool with that. The Pentagon will just let China, Russia, Haiti, whomever know to hang out and wait while you fulfill that contract. How does that message encourage morale upon the student body, most of whom will be going active duty immediately after graduation?

Ok. Here we go. Once again, I shall be direct. Yes, the Air Force and the DoD as a whole does serve the American people. Now for the first uncomfortable truth: The American people have very little situational awareness on actual issues and are happy to bite off on the first major headline that agrees with their own predetermined opinion.

So this beauty queen alumni was selected for post graduate (competitive) and is doing beauty pageants as an addition to her studies. She is actively serving on orders. That’s more than you can say for many other special cases. Look up all the USAFA football players allowed to defer service for the NFL. In my mind, this is a breach of contract. However we seem to conveniently not mention them in the same sentence. The Air Force decided to give her the PA spotlight. It reaches a demographic they haven’t marketed to before. This is a good thing.

Once again, she is not deferring service. Target your complaining to the football teams.

While I agree, it's not the best idea to air dirty laundry in public, but I also appreciate the disclosure. It also makes me think: who is listening to the cadets? Who is advocating for them? By airing it here, they obviously feel helpless, unseen, and unheard. What are we promoting if the "old guard" if you will, are poo pooing them when they are trapped in a pressure cooker with no outlet, and no one to listen to them? If you want to talk about modernization, well hello! Anti-bullying, advocacy, listening, mental health, are all modern things that's pretty trendy, more so than Miss America, and while there have been efforts within the military, no branch has fully embraced it yet. Those of you who are old grads have been trained, and at the bare minimum, your experience, and wisdom should enable you to know better, but there are literally old grads, officers, leaders in this very thread telling the open public to not listen to cadets, who are people too.

The cadets have plenty of people in their chain they can express grievances to. People who can actually make change. You have no situational awareness on this, and are making the wrong assumption that recourse doesn’t exist. Also, remember this. These are cadets. They don’t know anything, while assuming they know everything. If they don’t like being told at times to shut up and color, well they shouldn’t be in the military. What I see here is cadets complaining they can’t yell and give orders to younger cadets, while complaining about having to follow orders themselves. This isn’t a democracy. This is the military. Is it a lawful order? Yes? Follow it.

So why would any teacher, counselor, parents, etc even suggest a service academy or any form of military service? It's not news that enlistments and retention numbers are way down. Perhaps it's time for some self reflection, and instead of saying, "don't listen to the 1 or 2 cadets who are complaining. They know nothing" and start looking at the big picture and seeing what those of us who are seasoned adults can listen, and help those who will be one day, in the very near future, be expected to lead all of us. As a civilian, it's disheartening to see our military service members treated this way. They, including cadets, deserve better. We all do. None of us need to crawl through Jacks, or see combat to do better.

Why would they suggest it? Because they give a damn about service. Because of the VA home loan, the GI bill, the ability to be paid to strap a jet with 32,000lbs of thrust to your back and get paid to do it. To get real world experience that translates to a successful job after service. And all they have to do is talk less, listen more, and focus on learning.

TL;DR: You and the cadets do not understand the military and the war we are preparing them for. They complain without trying to understand. Complaining is easy. Understanding is hard.

When I cross the straight, I expect my wingman to execute my tactic/intercept flow/targeting quickly and efficiently without complaining. When I tell them to pitch back in, they are expected to pitch back in regardless of consequences. Following orders starts in college/academies, even if those orders don’t make sense at the time.

Rant over.

 

[MidCakePa]

They complain without trying to understand. Complaining is easy. Understanding is hard.

Something I learned long ago, and continue to relearn regularly: The easiest thing in the world is to complain. What's harder is to come up with a better solution -- while weighing all of the possible tradeoffs. That's why leadership is so demanding (and so well-paying, if you follow the breathless news stories about "overpaid" CEOs). Leaders make very difficult decisions that fail to please everyone because those decisions are very hard to come by. When you please everyone, you usually please no one at all. And yet a decision must still be made.

I'm not defending any of the decisions made by USAFA leadership. Heck, as a USNA and AROTC parent, I don't even understand them. By what I do know is that talk -- complaining -- is cheap. Identifying a better way -- one that manages to bridge opposing views, interests and constituencies -- is incredibly hard. So as I used to say to my teams back in corporate life: "Come up with a better idea. And then persuade everyone to buy in." It ain't easy.

 

[a400831]

So as I used to say to my teams back in corporate life: "Come up with a better idea. And then persuade everyone to buy in." It ain't easy.

This. Two of the most valuable lessons I have learned over my career are “never ask a question until after searching the applicable TTPs/Regs/T.O.” And “never bring a problem to a superior without a solution”.

Hopefully these cadets learn, or AD will be a rude awakening. We don’t have time to spoon feed. We have more important things to do (i.e. train for the next major war).

 

[level11]

Why would they suggest it? Because they give a damn about service. Because of the VA home loan, the GI bill, the ability to be paid to strap a jet with 32,000lbs of thrust to your back and get paid to do it. To get real world experience that translates to a successful job after service. And all they have to do is talk less, listen more, and focus on learning.

TL;DR: You and the cadets do not understand the military and the war we are preparing them for. They complain without trying to understand. Complaining is easy. Understanding is hard.

When I cross the straight, I expect my wingman to execute my tactic/intercept flow/targeting quickly and efficiently without complaining. When I tell them to pitch back in, they are expected to pitch back in regardless of consequences. Following orders starts in college/academies, even if those orders don’t make sense at the time.

Rant over.

To be fair, do you understand the current climate of American patriotism? In case you've been living under a rock: there's not a whole lot of it left any more. Gone are the 17 yr olds who would lie about their age just to enlist and fight a war overseas. Gone are even the post 9/11 unifying mentality, and young folks flocking to enlist. The Air Force alone have been trying to recall retired pilots for at least 4 years. Sorry to say, military service is not in style any more and hasn't been for a long time. There's not a single branch of service that isn't struggling to recruit and retain. Take a look at any high school post grad fair and tell me how busy the recruiting tables are (other than people there for swag) vs the civilian colleges boasting to be "SAT optional."

Much of the people that do get into SAs have plenty of other scholarship offers from full ride athletics to academic to other merits to other D1 schools and even Ivy Leagues. GI Bill? They have the 529 their parents opened for them since infancy they can use or pass on to their children or even roll over to an IRA. (A tip I learned about right here, as a matter of fact.) Why would someone like that choose a service academy and subject themselves "sit down, shut up, because you don't understand" berating and being locked into years of service post grad? Sorry, 32k lbs of thrust on your back and a lifetime of neck and back pain that comes with it ain't gonna cut it. Not to mention the more recent push for trade school, where someone with fewer years of experience than post SA commitment can come out making six figures.

You ought to know the saying, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Maybe it's time to give that a try, and actually teach, rather than to shake fists at the young whippersnappers who don't know what it's like to "love the smell of napalm in the morning!" and apparently "don't understand." As if we all can't afford to be lifelong learners.

 

[Osprey123]

From the feedback here, some cadets seem to indicate that they are being shut down and worried about losing commissioning. I don't think the cadets are complaining without purpose. I think they're trying to inform and rally allies such as the grad community after haven given up on other approaches.

 

[level11]

So this beauty queen alumni was selected for post graduate (competitive) and is doing beauty pageants as an addition to her studies. She is actively serving on orders. That’s more than you can say for many other special cases. Look up all the USAFA football players allowed to defer service for the NFL. In my mind, this is a breach of contract. However we seem to conveniently not mention them in the same sentence. The Air Force decided to give her the PA spotlight. It reaches a demographic they haven’t marketed to before. This is a good thing.

Once again, she is not deferring service. Target your complaining to the football teams.

AF issuing orders to compete in beauty pageants that were socially cancelled just 2 years ago now? Interesting. More so than Miss North Carolina's duck lips in an AF glider making USAFA's FB.

Football players...yeah, I stopped following when they screwed Steelhammer and Robinette over back in 2017.

Hey, what about that '23 grad that's now a NFL cheerleader? Oh, wait...football team.

 

[a400831]

To be fair, do you understand the current climate of American patriotism? In case you've been living under a rock: there's not a whole lot of it left any more. Gone are the 17 yr olds who would lie about their age just to enlist and fight a war overseas. Gone are even the post 9/11 unifying mentality, and young folks flocking to enlist. The Air Force alone have been trying to recall retired pilots for at least 4 years. Sorry to say, military service is not in style any more and hasn't been for a long time. There's not a single branch of service that isn't struggling to recruit and retain. Take a look at any high school post grad fair and tell me how busy the recruiting tables are (other than people there for swag) vs the civilian colleges boasting to be "SAT optional."

I do not live under a rock. I simply, unlike you, actually understand the issues because I live and research them. Do you know the true reason for the recruitment struggles? MHS GENESIS. You have no idea what that is, and honestly I have lost patience with you and do not have the time to explain it. Do not even think about telling me, a fighter pilot, about the pilot shortage. You are putting your ignorance on full display. It is a retention problem, not a recruitment problem for my career field. Have you read the 2017 RAND Study about this? No. Because you, like these cadets, do not care to do any research on the issue.

Much of the people that do get into SAs have plenty of other scholarship offers from full ride athletics to academic to other merits to other D1 schools and even Ivy Leagues. GI Bill? They have the 529 their parents opened for them since infancy they can use or pass on to their children or even roll over to an IRA. (A tip I learned about right here, as a matter of fact.) Why would someone like that choose a service academy and subject themselves "sit down, shut up, because you don't understand" berating and being locked into years of service post grad? Sorry, 32k lbs of thrust on your back and a lifetime of neck and back pain that comes with it ain't gonna cut it. Not to mention the more recent push for trade school, where someone with fewer years of experience than post SA commitment can come out making six figures.

I also know many people who would have crippling debt if it wasn't for the GI Bill. I know many people who would not be able to afford a house if it wasn't for the VA home loan. Do not assume your financial security applies to everyone. Also, are you lost? This is a military ascension forum. People here have made the decision that it's worth it. Additionally, I have had experiences with 32k of thrust that many can only dream of. It's ok if that "doesn't cut it for you". You wouldn't have made it here anyways.

You ought to know the saying, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Maybe it's time to give that a try, and actually teach, rather than to shake fists at the young whippersnappers who don't know what it's like to "love the smell of napalm in the morning!" and apparently "don't understand." As if we all can't afford to be lifelong learners.

Hi, you must be new here. I am a fighter pilot. I am in the worlds greatest instructing culture that has created the most dominant military branch the world has ever seen. Do you know the last time an American Soldier died from enemy aircraft? April 15th, 1953. For 70 years, we have enjoyed complete air superiority. Why? Because we have perfected the art of teaching fighter pilots. You might catch more flies with honey, but you don't win a war with it. You win a war by focusing the debrief on what went wrong so we can fix it next time.

 

[a400831]

AF issuing orders to compete in beauty pageants that were socially cancelled just 2 years ago now? Interesting. More so than Miss North Carolina's duck lips in an AF glider making USAFA's FB.

Wow. The orders are for her to get her masters degree. She does this as a hobby, which she is allowed to do. Also you have a weird fascination with duck lips.

Football players...yeah, I stopped following when they screwed Steelhammer and Robinette over back in 2017.

Hey, what about that '23 grad that's now a NFL cheerleader? Oh, wait...football team.

Nice red herring. I am not defending the NFL cheerleader. I firmly believe that there should be no deferred service. Ms. USA is not on deferred service orders. Take your logical fallacies and ill-informed argumentation elsewhere.