Thanks and agreed. That is an easy decision to make.I don't know which statement you are referring to. But I believe the EA helped with MIT (after she was accepted the then cadre commander called and said we will bump you up to a Type 1 if you accept the offer - hard not to turn down MIT and a Type 1).
As for reporting the scholarships, I think it helped. All the admissions people contacted were positive about adding it. It was better than not taking the action.
Sway of Army ROTC on Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Harvard Admissions?
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Thegirlinthefireplace
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I agree with you, but some schools won't make exceptions for anything except financial aid issues after acceptance. They don't even make exceptions for Private schools who require you to apply unrestricted EA for scholarships. I understand their position because it's supposed to be for people who know they want to go to that college and not for people like me who are waiting on academy decisions and aren't quite sure where they'd like to go for Plan B and C.
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Terms matter as much with college admissions as they do with academy and ROTC applications.
Early Decision is considered a "binding agreement" and students admitted under an ED application are expected to withdraw their other college applications. ED often gives students a higher chance of admission, because the student (and often a parent and the counselor) agree to attend if admitted.
This is an example of the language in an Early Decision application:
"If you are accepted under an Early Decision plan, you must promptly withdraw the applications submitted to other colleges and universities and make no additional applications to any other university in any country. If you are an Early Decision candidate and are seeking financial aid, you need not withdraw other applications until you have received notification about financial aid from the admitting Early Decision institution.
Yes, I have read and understand my rights and responsibilities under the Early Decision Process. I wish to be considered as an Early Decision candidate at the University of Virginia. I also understand that with an Early Decision offer of admissions, this institution may share my name and my Early Agreement with other institutions."
There isn't an exception for military academy applications.
Early Action is an early application and early notification of results. It does not have a binding agreement to attend if admitted.
There are a few colleges that have Single Choice Early Action or Restrictive Early Action. Depending on the college, these might allow students to apply to public colleges but not to private colleges. But it's up to the student to read the restrictions and conditions and choose to follow them or use a different application option.
Colleges that use Early Decision are not opposed to students attending military academies. But that is not one of the reasons for breaking the ED agreement the student chose to apply under.
If a student doesn't have a clear first choice college, or wants to be able to compare admissions offers, compare financial aid offers, or wait for academy results before deciding where to attend, then Early Decision is probably a poor option for that student.
Early Decision isn't "wasted" if the student decides the conditions of ED are not in their overall interests.
Early Decision is considered a "binding agreement" and students admitted under an ED application are expected to withdraw their other college applications. ED often gives students a higher chance of admission, because the student (and often a parent and the counselor) agree to attend if admitted.
This is an example of the language in an Early Decision application:
"If you are accepted under an Early Decision plan, you must promptly withdraw the applications submitted to other colleges and universities and make no additional applications to any other university in any country. If you are an Early Decision candidate and are seeking financial aid, you need not withdraw other applications until you have received notification about financial aid from the admitting Early Decision institution.
Yes, I have read and understand my rights and responsibilities under the Early Decision Process. I wish to be considered as an Early Decision candidate at the University of Virginia. I also understand that with an Early Decision offer of admissions, this institution may share my name and my Early Agreement with other institutions."
There isn't an exception for military academy applications.
Early Action is an early application and early notification of results. It does not have a binding agreement to attend if admitted.
There are a few colleges that have Single Choice Early Action or Restrictive Early Action. Depending on the college, these might allow students to apply to public colleges but not to private colleges. But it's up to the student to read the restrictions and conditions and choose to follow them or use a different application option.
Colleges that use Early Decision are not opposed to students attending military academies. But that is not one of the reasons for breaking the ED agreement the student chose to apply under.
If a student doesn't have a clear first choice college, or wants to be able to compare admissions offers, compare financial aid offers, or wait for academy results before deciding where to attend, then Early Decision is probably a poor option for that student.
Early Decision isn't "wasted" if the student decides the conditions of ED are not in their overall interests.
Thanks for the detailed information. Just to bring out the relevance here, for someone wants to serve, the choice is between acadmies and college with ROTC scholarship. All things are equal, it is a qualified statement that ED does bring the chance of acceptance up. As a parents with one kid went through the academy experience, I would be totally fine or biased for the second kid to go to a school of her choice with ROTC program under EA or even ED, especially schools where ROTC has some sway.
Are you saying @dberkeley that your experience has been better at/with (N)ROTC v. SA? If so, can you kindly elucidate?
I can't answer for anyone else, but for my DS applying ED at his number 1 school did help and he's not regretted it. Not for a second. He's had really great summer cruises and, although he's had some struggles, it's been worth it. My DS2 has decided not to apply ED, but just submitted his REA application at his number 1 school. If he's accepted there, not doubt he'll go. IMO this message board isn't loud enough about the positive experiences of ROTC kids. It's been great for my son.
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And once that SA or ROTC or OCS officer
gets to the Fleet or Corps, no one gives a flying patootie about commissioning source.
It is performance, performance, performance - sustained - in the assigned job, demonstrating potential for greater responsibility down the career road.
The sailor or Marine cares if the officer is smart enough to understand the technical aspects of the job, is devoid of hubris, knows how to develop and lead a high-performing team and work well with senior enlisted leaders, and is a fair-minded, decent human being with an ethical mindset, willing to listen and of course to be accountable and responsible for his or her mission and team, decisions and consequencea.
ROTC programs prepare midshipmen and cadets very well, and they learn quickly once in their O-1 jobs or schoolhouses. OCS/OTS does as well.
IMHO, the SAs immersion approach delivers new officers with the most professional depth of training and daily exposure to a wide range of officers of various ranks and communities, living in a 365/24/7 AD environment. But ROTC and OCS/OTS attract equally bright and committed people who get the requisite military training in a different setting or duration, and most quickly overcome any cultural gaps after putting on O-1, as the “SA effect” wears off.
As someone who once was privileged to command as well as to lead officers who reported to me in other roles, I really didn’t care what their commissioning source was. Most of the time I didn’t know. All I was interested in was - you guessed it - performance, performance, performance.
Outstanding, good, average and awful officers come from all sources.
gets to the Fleet or Corps, no one gives a flying patootie about commissioning source.
It is performance, performance, performance - sustained - in the assigned job, demonstrating potential for greater responsibility down the career road.
The sailor or Marine cares if the officer is smart enough to understand the technical aspects of the job, is devoid of hubris, knows how to develop and lead a high-performing team and work well with senior enlisted leaders, and is a fair-minded, decent human being with an ethical mindset, willing to listen and of course to be accountable and responsible for his or her mission and team, decisions and consequencea.
ROTC programs prepare midshipmen and cadets very well, and they learn quickly once in their O-1 jobs or schoolhouses. OCS/OTS does as well.
IMHO, the SAs immersion approach delivers new officers with the most professional depth of training and daily exposure to a wide range of officers of various ranks and communities, living in a 365/24/7 AD environment. But ROTC and OCS/OTS attract equally bright and committed people who get the requisite military training in a different setting or duration, and most quickly overcome any cultural gaps after putting on O-1, as the “SA effect” wears off.
As someone who once was privileged to command as well as to lead officers who reported to me in other roles, I really didn’t care what their commissioning source was. Most of the time I didn’t know. All I was interested in was - you guessed it - performance, performance, performance.
Outstanding, good, average and awful officers come from all sources.
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My long-view perspective in my response above is “what comes after” - which it does for Ivy grads, SA grads and all others.
No question in my mind top talent with a willingness to serve can and do gain their commission via several paths.
I believe each candidate should think through what matters most to them, what feels right to them, identify the long pole in their tent, as I am fond of saying. For some, if they know they would be happy at either an SA or ROTC school, they might choose to optimize their strategy across those options, not do ED. For someone who really wants a specific school and wants a commission, then ROTC is ideal, and if ED gives them a better chance at admission, and they are 100% ready to disengage from the SA application if an ED offer comes through, then they have gotten what they want. And - if they experience a change of heart later on, they can reapply to the SA and also apply for a ROTC nom along with others. Great flexibility there. EA - if there is no binding requirement to attend, then why not, and continue to apply to SA, continuing to gather information and contemplate a potential final choice of path to a commission.
It’s all good - the diversity of college educations and commissioning paths. My roommate at Navy OCS was a prior enlisted Storekeeper who got her bachelor’s degree after hours at National University using Tuition Assistance. A definite non-Ivy. She was smart, motivated and excelled as a Navy petty officer and peer leader. Her officer chain of command convinced her to apply for OCS and Supply Corps. She was a whiz at all the business stuff of the Navy - budget, material logistics, pay and disbursing, warehouse operations, food service, etc., and had a full and highly successful career, with command of a major supply center as a captain (O-6). Typical of Supply Corps officers who separate or retire, she has done exceedingly well in the private sector, with several executive roles in global supply chain management, with an MBA from Stanford. I only share this story to give perspective at the 30,000 foot view. Though not equipped with a shiny undergrad diploma and getting just 16 weeks of officer pre-comm training, and Supply Corps school, her learning curve was steep when she hit the Fleet. She delivered performance from the get-go. The Navy knows it will get great officers from all sources and has decades of experience bringing in the next generations of leaders through a variety of doors.
I agree, but I also think the mindset most often of this message board is just like that of Retired SWO, which in my opinion, is very sad. I've been on here for many years now, and the same voices speak the loudest. Not every officer thinks the academy route is the only or preferred path available or wanted. Some people on here just don't get that.
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In all my exchanges with my good shipmate Old Ret SWO, or from his posts, I have not taken that impression of his comments nor sensed any belief that other paths to a commission are not as worthy. No doubt I have my own filters and biases which come into play when deciphering meaning and intention without benefit of eye contact, vocal tone, body language and more nuanced context.
One of the great things about a board like this is people can choose whose opinions they value and want to listen to, or even cheerfully employ the Ignore option to avoid them entirely.
As a fellow SAF member with some years here, I will take this as a good reminder to avoid ruts in thinking, cultivate an open mind and generally assume positive intent.
The ED discussions are generally intense with very strong opinions no doubt. Your reminder is well received.
For Single Choice Early Action (SCEA), most schools will allow you to continue applying to other private schools during the regular decision window, but only to the one you applied SCEA to in the early window.
This was several years ago: Received NROTC scholarships in October, I applied SCEA to a school, got accepted to it mid-December, and also had submitted some regular decision applications to other private institutions I was super interested in, and got accepted in March to one of those too. I then went to both schools' days for admitted students in April of my high school senior year to make the final decision.
I received an appointment to an Academy early December of my high school senior year too but turned it down around a month after getting accepted to my SCEA school. I thoroughly thought through my options before doing so and made the right decision for me. Looking back, I am still very happy with my college/ROTC decision and definitely feel it was the best option for me.
This was several years ago: Received NROTC scholarships in October, I applied SCEA to a school, got accepted to it mid-December, and also had submitted some regular decision applications to other private institutions I was super interested in, and got accepted in March to one of those too. I then went to both schools' days for admitted students in April of my high school senior year to make the final decision.
I received an appointment to an Academy early December of my high school senior year too but turned it down around a month after getting accepted to my SCEA school. I thoroughly thought through my options before doing so and made the right decision for me. Looking back, I am still very happy with my college/ROTC decision and definitely feel it was the best option for me.
smokey%
USNA '28 ⚓
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Is anyone familiar with the ConAp program for the Army minuteman scholarship? My recruiter who is helping me put together my minuteman application told me about it and said that he can help me get into a college that participates in the ConAp program. Is there any truth to this? It sounds too good to be true.
Hey @SeePower, I am a parents of academy graduate and have no experience with ROTC directly. Needless to say, some experience from academy cannot be duplicated in a civilian school program. The same can be said about ROTC program. Ample information can be found here in the forum. You or candidate have to make reasonable decision even though it is not very tangible at the moment. One thing though, academy has a very structured life compared to civilian schools. My older one had to adjust to that. My younger one already has a very independent schooling life and there would not be much difference for her. The reason we think it might be better fit for her in a ROTC is the skillset you gain academically with all other things equal.
Thanks so much @dberkeley for your input! Son has wanted USNA for some time, but appears to possibly have some very attractive options through NROTC. We are just trying to weigh the pros/cons for both paths to commissioning and it seems there are a lot of considerations. Thanks again for your input!
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That is pretty typical just out of the gate, and they realize the real competition is just starting, because, in the eyes of their enlisted people and those senior to them, they are all green Ensigns and 2nd lieutenants (even if prior enlisted) who don’t know jack poop about the real Fleet, Corps, Army, etc.
They all know the tropes about other commissioning sources (elitist service academy, not only walked on water but invented it - ROTC part-time warrior training and full-time partying and no watch-standing to speak of - OCS/OTS 90-day wonders, enough said, etc.). They will soon realize - yes, here it is again - PERFORMANCE, PERFORMANCE, PERFORMANCE - sustained and high-quality - is all that matters to their chain of command. These JOs will start settling into pack plus, pack and pack minus groupings soon enough. There will be a distribution of commissioning sources across the performance range.
There are officers who are perfect exemplars of the worst stereotypes of their commissioning source, but the majority mature into competent officers, on a continuum from good to great. All it takes is one classic stereotype, any commissioning source, to kick off the JBR (Judgey Bias Reaction).
A sea story.
Back in the 90’s, as a consequence of the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the 1989 Berlin Wall coming down, the Navy started its downsizing from a 600-ship Navy. The right-sizing of the officer community was accomplished in different ways:
- fewer accessions
- less flexible medical and admin separation guidelines
- but also a big mandatory short-term purge program of officers with 17-20 years being offered early retirement (normally retirement with benefits and pension occurred at 20 years); officers with less than 17 years offered a cash bonus to get out; junior officers on active duty who had received USNR commissions (at the time, NROTC and OCS) and had completed their ADSO were not offered another set of orders despite their desire to serve and no matter their performance, they were given orders to separate before the FY end. Different warfare communities had different quotas - surface warfare, with new ship deliveries being cancelled or slowed, or decommissionings pushed up, had a heavy bill to pay.
This last action caused a great deal of grief. I was the Flag Secretary/N1 (Admin/Personnel) on a Surface Warfare Group staff. I had ship COs, including many USNA grads, sitting on my office sofa in shock, begging me for any workarounds. Perhaps their top LT of all their LTs was a NROTC grad with a USNR type commission, but had completed their ADSO and had orders to separate in 90 days, and their dirtbag lowest-ranked LT had a Regular USN commission out of USNA, who was immune to this, as he “served at the pleasure of the Secretary” and could continue his career unless he did something so bad he could be separated for conduct or performance reasons. COs were trying to work deals where the USNR officer who wanted to stay in could be “swapped” for a USN officer who wanted out. It was awful. The moral of this story was ALL that mattered, in the eyes of these COs, was performance and a desire to serve, and no one cared where they got their butter bar.
The Navy learned a painful lesson, that though they succeeded in getting the numbers down to meet mandated reductions, a massive price in quality was paid. The type of commission issue has been addressed in the years since. I was fortunate in that I had a USNR commission out of OCS, but after two years, the Navy sent me a letter saying they were “augmenting” my commission from USNR to a USN Regular due to my documented performance, unless I declined in writing. I went to my department head, who said “take it and hang onto it.” I had no idea there were different types of commission for AD officers.