To stay, or transfer?

M

Minuteman03

missiles is my first choice
Joined
Dec 9, 2022
Messages
20
Greeting to all of you great and wise graduates, and storied peoples.

I currently attend USAFA. I have amazing grades, I am in the Honors Program, and I have a great thing going.
On Christmas, I received a gift which ultimately put me in a weird state of mind. It was the flag flown on my class year's acceptance day. I am grateful yes, but there is this lingering guilt that I should not possess such a flag. For about a month now I have been thinking of leaving, hence when I received this gift, I did not know how to feel. My complication is not how I should feel about the flag, rather -- how to I process these thoughts and feelings about leaving?

Let me offer some background.
If I am honest, a large reason I chose to attend the Academy was the financials. I would feel bad asking my parents to cough up extreme amounts of money to attend a school, so when I was looking at the Academies, I ultimately found myself draw to the potential of graduating debt free. I think I ultimately chose USAFA for the looks, I had my heart set on attending a SA from the beginning of my college application process in HS because I thought it would mean something if I were to attend there; my friends, teachers, parents would feel proud and accomplished that they pushed me to attend such an institution. Another part of me thinks there was something I needed to prove, but looking back, I am not sure I really did have anything to prove. Basic training was a blur; it sucks to be yelled at and be constantly told you are wrong but the stress kicked after the first few days, and I wasn't nearly thrilled with the challenge. Coming back home during the break, my family were all so proud of me, and I was proud of what I have done, but there has been a part of me with me foot suck out the door. Moreso, what do they actually have to be proud of? That I attend class in camouflage and not a hoodie and shorts? I digress. I am not sure if I really ever fully stepped into the Academy. I don't feel an anxiousness for Recognition, Ring Dance, Job Drops, etc... all of these traditional major milestones in the Academy life, I am neutral to. I purely just find the Academy to be school. I really cannot say I have ever been through and through military is my passion. I have always been supportive, and patriotic, which I why I thought I would be happy here, but I find myself at best content. Lastly, I have no clue what I want to do with my life, which I know, I know, nobody really does at my age; but hear me out: in all of the theoretical timelines and scenarios I can playout in my mind, the ones where I graduate from the Academy seem to be the least enjoyable, most regrettable hypotheticals. Then again they are hypotheticals.

Now that you know a little about me, please use your personal life experiences and wisdom to answer this question carefully.

Financials aside, do you think it is genuinely worth graduating from the Academy and incurring the time commitment after?

Please also consider suggestions for paths to take, things to think about, etc.


Greatly appreciated.

-MM03
 
First and foremost. The academy is not like the fleet at all. Many people say they will five and fly and do 20. Some people say they will do a career and get out at five. I do not think you will find the answer from anyone on this website, but instead you will find it in yourself. Good luck.
 
Sounds like your lack of identified end goals is the bigger issue.

Do you have an idea of what kinds of things make you feel fulfilled? (e.g. the things that make you feel your effort/life was worth the work, not just "happy")
It might be making new things that are useful, or teaching people important skills, or rescuing people from physical danger, etc, etc.

Once you figure out what fulfills you, it will be easier to ID whether or not a SA will help you do those kinds of things.
 
Military life is not difficult. At best it can be annoying because you can't just get up and go somewhere on a whim. Other than that, life as an officer is generally considered better than enlisted for sure. You're also Air Force, you can't get much better than that. Not many scenarios seem that dismal if you ask me. You graduate debt free, you have a guaranteed job with great benefits. Most jobs will have you there 9-5, you just wear a uniform. Not sure what sounds so bad about that.

What is your alternative? Go to a civilian college, party, drink, get a degree, owe $50,000, and then scramble for a job when you graduate?

There are countless benefits to spend at least one term of service in the military. You will come out into the civilian workforce having had invaluable leadership experience. At the very least, if you get out at five years you'll have been a Captain and been in charge of a department or section. Your civilian counterparts will not have that and it will be very marketable.
 
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You have been reflecting. That’s great. But not always. You identified where you may have made a choice to attend, for perhaps some ‘wrong reasons’. You are not the only one. I suspect there were also some ‘right reasons’ that you attended as well. But in your current mindset, you are more focused on the ones that support your current thoughts. That’s a normal human reaction. Change your mindset from ‘I can’t/won’t’ to ‘I can/will’. It will do wonders.

I understand the ‘flag’ example. It’s the LAST thing you want….but your family doesn’t understand that. Also a ‘normal’ situation. I would suggest that you use your adult voice, and let them know. My youngest did, in no certain terms. He did NOT want to even TALK about the academy. During this same first break (later, he let me know he almost didn’t get on the plane to go back…he is now THRIVING). As mom, I had no clue, and it made sense after it was verbalized to me. Share this with your family. This is also normal.

This is the hardest break to return from, of the 4 years, according to both of my Mids (one now an ensign). ‘Just do it’.

You will grow and change so much in 3.5 years, that your future self may be exactly the person that is meant to lead in the AF. A future person who will remember this present self and say ‘thank goodness I didn’t quit’.

Do a ‘self check’ of what you are doing to FIND happiness in your days. Do you have strong social bonds? Is your academic load too much? Have you ‘found your people’? Do you exercise? Get outside daily? Eat well? My oldest had too much on his plate, had to make a few decisions about his schedule, did and was much ‘happier’.

And lastly, seek out the Chaplains to chat with. They are amazing. And ‘off the record’. They have good resources to help you through this, one on one, in person. Highly recommend whether you are of the faith, or not. Fr Kautsky is exceptional.

Your parents want you to succeed and be happy. Don’t be afraid to speak with them honestly. I wouldn’t expect them to foot a future financial educational bill. I would expect that to be part of my owns decision, if you were mine.

More recent discussion here (search around the forums, for more advice…you will see this come up regularly)

Second Thoughts

Having just received an appointment a few days ago, I was immediately ecstatic and thrilled. I immediately accepted it. I have been committed to going to USNA since 8th grade and was so elated to receive an appointment. Now, as the immediate excitement wears off, I find myself dreading the...
www.serviceacademyforums.com

Also, follow @Usnavy2019 and read their posts on this. They have ‘been there, done that’, and have really great insight already shared. Maybe they will chime in here. Different SA, but I suspect the 4 years is similar, no matter.

*that’s my mom advice*
 
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I would personally be supportive of transferring if you had a clear goal and plan to accomplish it AND military service would be a hindrance to that goal.

You kinda nailed a big thing though...service academies are just school and not some kind of magical experience for most. There are better schools out there with substantially better educations. They also can cost 80K per year and leave you with no job or avenue to get experience depending on what you study.

Probably best to not make decisions during the darkest times of your academy days. There is a reason why the first two years are free. The best time to really explore the off ramp is fall of your 3rd class year. You will have the remaining time to continue academic excellence, assemble some quality applications and transfer 2 years of credits. Then while home over the summer before 2C year you can either pull the trigger on the transfer or commit.

We ask our enlisted airmen/sailors/soldiers to enlist fo 8 years for basically technical school and experience. USAFA gets you a 4yr degree, great network opportunities, real life leadership experience and only takes 5 years payback. You will make a difference in someones life at some point during your service. Quitting now may deprive that person of the leader they need...when they need it.
 
justdoit19 said:
You have been reflecting. That’s great. But not always. You identified where you may have made a choice to attend, for perhaps some ‘wrong reasons’. You are not the only one. I suspect there were also some ‘right reasons’ that you attended as well. But in your current mindset, you are more focused on the ones that support your current thoughts. That’s a normal human reaction. Change your mindset from ‘I can’t/won’t’ to ‘I can/will’. It will do wonders.

I understand the ‘flag’ example. It’s the LAST thing you want….but your family doesn’t understand that. Also a ‘normal’ situation. I would suggest that you use your adult voice, and let them know. My youngest did, in no certain terms. He did NOT want to even TALK about the academy. During this same first break (later, he let me know he almost didn’t get on the plane to go back…he is now THRIVING). As mom, I had no clue, and it made sense after it was verbalized to me. Share this with your family. This is also normal.

This is the hardest break to return from, of the 4 years, according to both of my Mids (one now an ensign). ‘Just do it’.

You will grow and change so much in 3.5 years, that your future self may be exactly the person that is meant to lead in the AF. A future person who will remember this present self and say ‘thank goodness I didn’t quit’.

Do a ‘self check’ of what you are doing to FIND happiness in your days. Do you have strong social bonds? Is your academic load too much? Have you ‘found your people’? Do you exercise? Get outside daily? Eat well? My oldest had too much on his plate, had to make a few decisions about his schedule, did and was much ‘happier’.

And lastly, seek out the Chaplains to chat with. They are amazing. And ‘off the record’. They have good resources to help you through this, one on one, in person. Highly recommend whether you are of the faith, or not. Fr Kautsky is exceptional.

Your parents want you to succeed and be happy. Don’t be afraid to speak with them honestly. I wouldn’t expect them to foot a future financial educational bill. I would expect that to be part of my owns decision, if you were mine.

More recent discussion here (search around the forums, for more advice…you will see this come up regularly)

Second Thoughts

Having just received an appointment a few days ago, I was immediately ecstatic and thrilled. I immediately accepted it. I have been committed to going to USNA since 8th grade and was so elated to receive an appointment. Now, as the immediate excitement wears off, I find myself dreading the...
www.serviceacademyforums.com

Also, follow @Usnavy2019 and read their posts on this. They have ‘been there, done that’, and have really great insight already shared. Maybe they will chime in here. Different SA, but I suspect the 4 years is similar, no matter.

*that’s my mom advice*
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And lastly, seek out the Chaplains to chat with. They are amazing. And ‘off the record’. They have good resources to help you through this, one on one, in person. Highly recommend whether you are of the faith, or not. Fr Kautsky is exceptional.

Very sound advice to seek out a Chaplain!!!
 
.
… make the best of what you have right now … use it as a spring board to open more doors and explore new things in your life journey

I bet this guy is an interesting character … John J. Ray III … a corporate salvage man
en.m.wikipedia.org

John J. Ray III - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
When he was young, I bet that he never would have dreamed of doing what he does today … this is kind of how the ball bounces for successful people … they take on a leadership role/responsibility when it presents itself … you can never know to far ahead when it’s going to happen … you just do your best and roll with it

… so right now, he was called up to clean up after what the FTX bamboozlers did …. Before this, he got a name for himself by helping to clean up the Enron mess …

… life is a box of chocolates.
.
 
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I'm not Air Force, but I think some things about being an officer aren't service-specific.

Minuteman03 said:
Let me offer some background.
If I am honest, a large reason I chose to attend the Academy was the financials. I would feel bad asking my parents to cough up extreme amounts of money to attend a school, so when I was looking at the Academies, I ultimately found myself draw to the potential of graduating debt free. I think I ultimately chose USAFA for the looks, I had my heart set on attending a SA from the beginning of my college application process in HS because I thought it would mean something if I were to attend there; my friends, teachers, parents would feel proud and accomplished that they pushed me to attend such an institution. Another part of me thinks there was something I needed to prove, but looking back, I am not sure I really did have anything to prove. Basic training was a blur; it sucks to be yelled at and be constantly told you are wrong but the stress kicked after the first few days, and I wasn't nearly thrilled with the challenge. Coming back home during the break, my family were all so proud of me, and I was proud of what I have done, but there has been a part of me with me foot suck out the door. Moreso, what do they actually have to be proud of? That I attend class in camouflage and not a hoodie and shorts? I digress. I am not sure if I really ever fully stepped into the Academy. I don't feel an anxiousness for Recognition, Ring Dance, Job Drops, etc... all of these traditional major milestones in the Academy life, I am neutral to. I purely just find the Academy to be school. I really cannot say I have ever been through and through military is my passion. I have always been supportive, and patriotic, which I why I thought I would be happy here, but I find myself at best content.
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First: You don't need to love the Academy. You don't even need to think highly of it. You can hate it.

USNA meant very little to me. Plebe Summer was easy because I was in shape. I didn't care about being yelled at. Rote memorization was not difficult. I didn't have any family fly in for I-Day, PPW, or 2/C Parents' Weekend--it was money we didn't have. I bought the cheapest, most basic ring possible from Jostens just so I had one and wouldn't catch any trouble. I missed Ring Dance. My family didn't care about most of commissioning week--I just picked up my diploma on graduation day, took a few pictures with my family, and left.

What did mean a lot to me was the friends I made during four years of college, the dumb stories we had, and most of all the opportunity to be an officer, a job I still find genuinely rewarding today.

You do not have to bleed red, white, and blue to be an officer. You do not need to be that kid that's wanted to be a pilot since he was 4 or have some heartwarming story about how you saw the Blue Angels as a kid and knew this was your destiny. It may be hard to see that when you're surrounded by a group of folks with those kinds of stories.

People come from all kinds of backgrounds and join the military as officers or enlisted for all kinds of reasons, most of which are not because they've wanted to be in the military for a long time or couldn't imagine any other profession other than to be in the military. Let's not pretend like there isn't a large population of officers in all services that joined up for the free college, or joined up just to get out of where they were--it's what happens after commissioning that really matters, not the initial hook, whatever it may have been.

The military need not be your primary passion. It's not required to be someone who wakes up in morning to a coffee and a tactical pub.

It's okay to be "just" content. It doesn't make you any less deserving of a commission. And the super moto guy next door that lives and breathes Air Force isn't guaranteed to become a good officer, either.

Minuteman03 said:
Lastly, I have no clue what I want to do with my life, which I know, I know, nobody really does at my age; but hear me out: in all of the theoretical timelines and scenarios I can playout in my mind, the ones where I graduate from the Academy seem to be the least enjoyable, most regrettable hypotheticals. Then again they are hypotheticals.
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Second: I think this last point is what you should really be thinking about.

Do you want to be an officer? Do you think you'd be a good one? Can you lead with compassion and follow with diligence? Would you be willing to work with people to help them resolve their personal and professional obstacles and problems? That's the only milestone that really matters.

The biggest issue at hand is not about the Academy or how you feel about the Academy. Figure out if you really want to be an officer or not. If you don't, start building your plan to leave; I think that part is not negotiable.

I would carve some 1-on-1 time to talk with a variety of AD officers and NCOs about their experiences leading and following in operational units. Other cadets can form an echo chamber of what everyone thinks being an officer is like.
 
nuensis said:
Do you want to be an officer? Do you think you'd be a good one? Can you lead with compassion and follow with diligence? Would you be willing to work with people to help them resolve their personal and professional obstacles and problems? That's the only milestone that really matters.
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One of the best descriptions of leadership that I’ve read. Applies equally well to military and civilian organizations.
 
It sounds like you are a Doolie, and you are in the middle of the Dark Ages there (Nov-January--I think). I am not telling you what to do or what not to do, but I will say that the yelling and crappy stuff of being a Doolie IMMEDIATELY stops after recognition. If that sort of stuff is the MAIN reason you want to quit, hang on. If you know you don't want to serve, nothing wrong with that realization. That is why they give cadets two years to decide,

But, as others have said, make sure you have a defined next step. Don't want to leave, just to wander the streets.
 
I fully agree with CAPT MJ. I witnessed quite a few mids leave USNA (in our day attrition was close to 30%). Those who were successful had a plan. They had identified one or more civilian colleges they wanted to attend. They had a pretty good sense of the job / career they wanted. They knew where they were going to live and how they would support themselves.

Conversely, those who just wanted to "get outta here" -- ANYWHERE had to be better -- often floundered, at least for a time. Some never found their footing.
 
justdoit19 said:
You have been reflecting. That’s great. But not always. You identified where you may have made a choice to attend, for perhaps some ‘wrong reasons’. You are not the only one. I suspect there were also some ‘right reasons’ that you attended as well. But in your current mindset, you are more focused on the ones that support your current thoughts. That’s a normal human reaction. Change your mindset from ‘I can’t/won’t’ to ‘I can/will’. It will do wonders.

I understand the ‘flag’ example. It’s the LAST thing you want….but your family doesn’t understand that. Also a ‘normal’ situation. I would suggest that you use your adult voice, and let them know. My youngest did, in no certain terms. He did NOT want to even TALK about the academy. During this same first break (later, he let me know he almost didn’t get on the plane to go back…he is now THRIVING). As mom, I had no clue, and it made sense after it was verbalized to me. Share this with your family. This is also normal.

This is the hardest break to return from, of the 4 years, according to both of my Mids (one now an ensign). ‘Just do it’.

You will grow and change so much in 3.5 years, that your future self may be exactly the person that is meant to lead in the AF. A future person who will remember this present self and say ‘thank goodness I didn’t quit’.

Do a ‘self check’ of what you are doing to FIND happiness in your days. Do you have strong social bonds? Is your academic load too much? Have you ‘found your people’? Do you exercise? Get outside daily? Eat well? My oldest had too much on his plate, had to make a few decisions about his schedule, did and was much ‘happier’.

And lastly, seek out the Chaplains to chat with. They are amazing. And ‘off the record’. They have good resources to help you through this, one on one, in person. Highly recommend whether you are of the faith, or not. Fr Kautsky is exceptional.

Your parents want you to succeed and be happy. Don’t be afraid to speak with them honestly. I wouldn’t expect them to foot a future financial educational bill. I would expect that to be part of my owns decision, if you were mine.

More recent discussion here (search around the forums, for more advice…you will see this come up regularly)

Second Thoughts

Having just received an appointment a few days ago, I was immediately ecstatic and thrilled. I immediately accepted it. I have been committed to going to USNA since 8th grade and was so elated to receive an appointment. Now, as the immediate excitement wears off, I find myself dreading the...
www.serviceacademyforums.com

Also, follow @Usnavy2019 and read their posts on this. They have ‘been there, done that’, and have really great insight already shared. Maybe they will chime in here. Different SA, but I suspect the 4 years is similar, no matter.

*that’s my mom advice*
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@justdoit19, sorry for not seeing your mention! Happy to help here and thanks for the kind words!

@Minuteman03, first let me commend you for seeking outside counsel. Going internal (especially for life altering decisions) is never a good idea and leads to faulty logic when making a decision. @nuensis pretty covers most of the points I would have made if I had posted earlier. I want to hone in on the points that the military is a great place for those who don't have an identified career destination. You'll get trained to do some job and if you like it, you are already on your way (i.e. not entry level). If you want to do something else, then your military experience as an officer (executing delegated tasking, leading others, dealing with stress, etc.) will allow you to pivot to other career fields. From the pilot side, I have mentors that have gone to the airlines, law school, one started a school, plenty have gone to B school, etc. And if you still don't know after some time, there is nothing wrong with staying in. It is a great career that I plan to spend as much time as I can in (but that is just me).

People, enlisted and officer, join for many reasons. Some have a family tradition, some feel a patriotic duty, some to travel/get away from their hometown, and some for economic benefits. I'd say most have some economic incentive (I truly like this job... but the retirement benefits makes the 20 years of service more appealing). Recent civil-military affairs polls have also indicated that most people joining the military these days are doing it for economic reasons. FWIW, I have never been asked outside of sheer curiosity about my motivations to join. No reason is wrong and servicemembers don't really question others. The Nation doesn't either. Notice how when citations are read for things like a service cross or the MOH, they don't talk about the person's background. It doesn't matter because it says nothing about who you are as a person or as an officer. People who join for free school do great things for this Nation and their fellow servicemembers. So do those who wanted to fight for Uncle Sam since they could crawl. And both backgrounds aren't immune to being poor officers or doing bad things that damaged their fellow servicemembers or the Nation.

I have had times in my short military career where I have asked why I get paid to do this. Sometimes, I can't believe I make a living doing stuff this cool and other times it feels like whatever I am doing sucks and I ask why I joined in the first place. The military is full of ups and downs and usually the downs are in the beginning of something and the really cool stuff is at the end. I have experienced that both at USNA and at Flight School. USAFA is not what the active duty USAF is like.

One thing that helped during my down times was seeking a mentor. They can provide a fresh perspective on things or relate to you. I'd recommend talking to someone who is outside your direct chain of command in order to encourage candor. I'd personally recommend finding a an officer because they can speak to both what the struggles of the Academy and how it relates to the active duty Air Force. They also have some cool stories about their careers. That might help you look forward to the future. Since you are undecided, talk to many officers of different AFSCs. It is never a bad idea to learn about careers. You might find one that really jazzes you and it can change your whole perspective.

I think once you find your why, I think you'll be able to take the grind and the reindeer games in stride. And plus, look on the bright side, your school wins the CINC Trophy like every year! Best of luck!
 
Usnavy2019 said:
I have had times in my short military career where I have asked why I get paid to do this. Sometimes, I can't believe I make a living doing stuff this cool and other times it feels like whatever I am doing sucks and I ask why I joined in the first place.
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This is also true in the civilian/corporate world. You have to find ways to be happy and resolve conflicts regardless of whether living as a sailor/airmen/soldier or as a corporate employee. No guarantees in either capacity.
 
KPEngnr90 said:
Nothing beats being a 21-22 year old college graduate with no debt, and a 6 figure salary waiting for you after 5 yrs.
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Maybe I missed something, but are referring to a six-figure salary after 5 years in the military?
 
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