Torn: USMA vs. Yale

billyb said:
I am sorry, but I really disagree with this sentiment. There were lots of "hooah" cadets at West Point that didn't do great overall there. There were lot of cadets that were very, very low key that did really well. It takes all types and you can absolutely not judge a cadet book by it's cover. My old roommate was very slack militarily but went out into the army in Infantry and killed it. He won the Douglas MacArthur Leadership Award which is a very big deal in the real army. Some of the most chill cadets I knew are still in the Army (O-6 and above) and some of the "hooah" ones left after 5 years.
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Agree 100% with this. Being motivated with "hooah" or to use the USMC version of "oorah" doesn't make one a better or worse Cadet or Mid. For some that is a natural fit and others its not, its not a direct correlation. There is no cookie cutter method for leadership, every person has to develop their own style that works with their personality, strengths and weakness. If you aren't authentic it will be seen right through. I was never a very openly oorah person. I am a naturally quiet person who is rather introverted. I like to think I made a pretty decent officer, by following my gut, caring about my Marines and knowing my job as well as I could. Heck the officer in my unit that was the most oorah was the most hated by far by the enlisted and our CO actually pulled him from a deployment because of his lack of competence. The great part of a SA is you are surrounded by examples of different leaders and get opportunities to test your developing style. Probably one of the most laid back Mids I knew was honor grad of IOC, Marine Company Grade Infantry Officer of the Year and Silver Star winner many years ago. Some of my most motivated Marines crumbled under the fire. Some of the quietest Marines I had became unbelievable when the bullets started flying. Also now that I look back on all this, those that made it to retirement and those that did 5 and moved on... you can never make that guess. It is a total mystery who will stay and go. I saw a picture of 5 classmates the other day at a Change of Command. All 5 are in command or handing off command, 3 of the 5 I would said yes they would stay many years. The other 2, we all said, 'who woulda thunk it?"

To the OP. If you can, visit both. Focus on USMC vs. USA. Do not count on going to USMA and cross commissioning. The statistics are so low on this that it would be like thinking the lottery is a viable retirement option (okay maybe not that bad, but its low). Do you want a 24x7 military environment? What interests you in the Army? The Marine Corps? Although they have many related fields, there are some differences. For instance tanks... the USMC has a very small tank force. It is a limited career. The Army has more tanks than the USMC could even fathom. You would know your branch out of USMA. USMC you don't get it until 1/2 to 2/3 done with TBS. What are your thoughts of being on a boat? The USMC does lots of MEUs. Good luck.
 
kathy baker said:
I am a parent and I am going to tell you the same thing I would tell my own child. You better take a long hard look at your goals and at your definition of military service. It is NOT something you "participate" in. It is your way of life! It is what puts food on your table, a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and if your lucky shows you the world! In your case, it's willing to invest in your education and it expects you to do more than participate. You better be prepared to fully embrace, absorb, respect and defend it for the next 10+ years! With that said, if money isn't an option than your future is just as bright by going to Yale. Clearly you have the intellect for either. Only you can decide where your heart is.
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Really appreciate the input; I think you make a very valid point. I'm really unsure about whether I would want to stay in any service for 10+ years, so would you say that I'd be better off not entering service?
 
Padre101 said:
Have you visited both campuses? Perhaps for an overnight?
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I have visited West Point for an overnight, and will be staying overnight at Yale next week for an overnight as well. Definitely liked what I saw at West Point in terms of some of the people I met, but also saw that it would be incredibly exhausting compared to Yale.
 
FLIPPER@622 said:
Same exact situation here! DS chose West Point over Yale. Yale was one of his Plan B options ( With 4 year NROTC & AROTC scholarships). Which school was your Plan A West Point or Yale? That may help you decide.
Yale can be a grad school option if you chose West Point. West Point will never be an option if you chose Yale.
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Going into the college admissions process, I probably would have pegged Yale as my first choice, and I would say that I was definitely more excited to be admitted to Yale. With that said, the more I learn about West Point, the harder it is to turn it down.
 
armywife03 said:
Congratulations! You have an enviable dilemma. It never hurts to plan for the unexpected. Can you and your parents afford Yale if you decide to quit NROTC?
My older daughter accepted a full ride athletic scholarship. 2 years in, she was hurt and could no longer participate in her sport. It would have been heartbreaking if she would have had to leave the school she loved because the money disappeared. Fortunately, we made the decision on the school knowing that we could pick up any future slack. We would not have been able to accomplish that at a school such as Yale. If you and your parents feel comfortable with the costs if the NROTC scholarship is unavailable for whatever reason , then Yale should stay in play.
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Thank you. Given the financial aid package that we received from Yale, my family would be able to handle the costs of attendance there, making finances a secondary (but still important) concern.
 
keyili888 said:
I have visited West Point for an overnight, and will be staying overnight at Yale next week for an overnight as well. Definitely liked what I saw at West Point in terms of some of the people I met, but also saw that it would be incredibly exhausting compared to Yale.
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keyili888---I have been keeping up with your post since you first started this thread and I have wanted to respond a few times but knew you would figure it out on your own. However, when I read this post, particularly the part where you wrote: "...but also saw that it would be incredibly exhausting compared to Yale", I had to respond. That sentence alone should weigh heavily on your decision. If you just realized that truth about WP only after an overnight visit, I would like to put a vote in that you go to Yale. Most kids go to WP already extremely aware of how difficult and exhausting it is going to be and it ends up being even more difficult and more exhausting than expected. You will have very little down time both physically and academically. (And someone can certainly correct me here, but I am quite certain that the academics at WP are on par with the Ivy Leagues). So-----WP is-----without a doubt-----physically and academically demanding and will be incredibly exhausting. Exhaustion should not be on your "pros and cons" list---IMHO, you should be weighing the differences based on what happens the day after you graduate from WP vs Yale. This is where the EXTREME difference will take place. Traditional college grad? Or do you really want to serve for at least 5 years? Such incredibly different options----even more so than "physically and academically exhausting" vs "academically exhausting". Good luck with your decision and I wish you all the best! :)
 
JTGib13 said:
keyili888---I have been keeping up with your post since you first started this thread and I have wanted to respond a few times but knew you would figure it out on your own. However, when I read this post, particularly the part where you wrote: "...but also saw that it would be incredibly exhausting compared to Yale", I had to respond. That sentence alone should weigh heavily on your decision. If you just realized that truth about WP only after an overnight visit, I would like to put a vote in that you go to Yale. Most kids go to WP already extremely aware of how difficult and exhausting it is going to be and it ends up being even more difficult and more exhausting than expected. You will have very little down time both physically and academically. (And someone can certainly correct me here, but I am quite certain that the academics at WP are on par with the Ivy Leagues). So-----WP is-----without a doubt-----physically and academically demanding and will be incredibly exhausting. Exhaustion should not be on your "pros and cons" list---IMHO, you should be weighing the differences based on what happens the day after you graduate from WP vs Yale. This is where the EXTREME difference will take place. Traditional college grad? Or do you really want to serve for at least 5 years? Such incredibly different options----even more so than "physically and academically exhausting" vs "academically exhausting". Good luck with your decision and I wish you all the best! :)
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I'm extremely puzzled by this post. Doesn't she end up serving anyway since she would be going to Yale and enrolling in NROTC with a Marine Option Scholarship? Doesn't the same thing happen the "day after" she graduates from either institution - commission as an officer?
 
JTGib13 said:
(And someone can certainly correct me here, but I am quite certain that the academics at WP are on par with the Ivy Leagues).
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In the Ivy Leagues I'm pretty sure they don't have all of their kids taking an introduction to calculus course their first year and students aren't given guides that tell them exactly what they need to know for each test...
 
kinnem said:
I'm extremely puzzled by this post. Doesn't she end up serving anyway since she would be going to Yale and enrolling in NROTC with a Marine Option Scholarship? Doesn't the same thing happen the "day after" she graduates from either institution - commission as an officer?
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I'm sorry---I read about "a financial package received" from Yale as opposed to an ROTC scholarship---I apologize that I either missed the ROTC part or forgot about it from her earlier post. I was mostly responding to her thoughts regarding the physical aspect at WP on top of the rigorous academics she would encounter at either choice.
 
1337BeachedWhale1337 said:
In the Ivy Leagues I'm pretty sure they don't have all of their kids taking an introduction to calculus course their first year and students aren't given guides that tell them exactly what they need to know for each test...
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I have great respect for both the Ivy Leagues and the Academies. I would imagine the person who was accepted into both Yale and WP would most likely validate/or be exempt from any Calc 1 course at either institution and would take something more along the lines of Dif Eq. That will be challenging at either place. My original point was choosing between Yale or WP will be a very difficult decision (ROTC or no ROTC scholarship) because they are so very different overall.
 
JTGib13 said:
I have great respect for both the Ivy Leagues and the Academies. I would imagine the person who was accepted into both Yale and WP would most likely validate/or be exempt from any Calc 1 course at either institution and would take something more along the lines of Dif Eq. That will be challenging at either place. My original point was choosing between Yale or WP will be a very difficult decision (ROTC or no ROTC scholarship) because they are so very different overall.
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I don't think it is accurate at all to tell the OP that USMA is on the same level as Ivy League school. Most of the teachers here are not doctors (I have had about 12 teachers so far and only one has been a doctor), and many classes are taught by teachers who don't even have a degree in the field. One of my teachers only has an undergraduate degree in the subject s/he is teaching. Another one of my teachers has neither a undergraduate degree or a graduate degree in the subject s/he is teaching. I don't know very much about Ivy League schools, but I would guess that neither of the aforementioned situations happen there. If the OP wants the best undergraduate academic education they can get, Yale seems to be the obvious choice to me. He will be surrounded by people with an average ACT 7 points higher, and teachers that are probably the very best in their respective fields.
 
1337BeachedWhale1337 said:
I don't think it is accurate at all to tell the OP that USMA is on the same level as Ivy League school. Most of the teachers here are not doctors (I have had about 12 teachers so far and only one has been a doctor), and many classes are taught by teachers who don't even have a degree in the field. One of my teachers only has an undergraduate degree in the subject s/he is teaching. Another one of my teachers has neither a undergraduate degree or a graduate degree in the subject s/he is teaching. I don't know very much about Ivy League schools, but I would guess that neither of the aforementioned situations happen there. If the OP wants the best undergraduate academic education they can get, Yale seems to be the obvious choice to me. He will be surrounded by people with an average ACT 7 points higher, and teachers that are probably the very best in their respective fields.
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Since you are at USMA, I completely respect your viewpoints about the teachers you have experienced. I have 2 immediate relatives who attended Ivy Leagues, 1 at USMA, and 1 at USNA. Based on conversations I have had with all of them, my opinion remains the same for my original post. I wanted the OP to please recognize that these are two extremely different day-to-day college experiences, especially in reference to physical requirements and "physical exhaustion". By the way, congratulations on almost completing your first year at USMA; I am sure it was not easy and very different from your friends back home who chose a traditional college. You sound extremely intelligent and also frustrated in regards to the academic challenge at USMA. If that is the case, I hope you can appreciate why I was giving my "vote" for Yale. Based on what was written in several posts, it sounds like he is looking for a highly challenging academic experience, without "feeling exhausted" from the daily physical requirements. I will concede that the academics are probably more rigorous at an Ivy League...I did write 'on par with' in my original post :) Congrats again on your promotion to Private First Class. :)
 
JTGib13 said:
Since you are at USMA, I completely respect your viewpoints about the teachers you have experienced. I have 2 immediate relatives who attended Ivy Leagues, 1 at USMA, and 1 at USNA. Based on conversations I have had with all of them, my opinion remains the same for my original post. I wanted the OP to please recognize that these are two extremely different day-to-day college experiences, especially in reference to physical requirements and "physical exhaustion". By the way, congratulations on almost completing your first year at USMA; I am sure it was not easy and very different from your friends back home who chose a traditional college. You sound extremely intelligent and also frustrated in regards to the academic challenge at USMA. If that is the case, I hope you can appreciate why I was giving my "vote" for Yale. Based on what was written in several posts, it sounds like he is looking for a highly challenging academic experience, without "feeling exhausted" from the daily physical requirements. I will concede that the academics are probably more rigorous at an Ivy League...I did write 'on par with' in my original post :) Congrats again on your promotion to Private First Class. :)
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You seem to keep insisting that Yale will not be physically exhausting. As NavyHoops pointed out earlier, participating in NROTC MO will leave OP physically exhausted, even at Yale. I certainly don't disagree that they are two different experiences though.
 
1337BeachedWhale1337 said:
I don't think it is accurate at all to tell the OP that USMA is on the same level as Ivy League school. Most of the teachers here are not doctors (I have had about 12 teachers so far and only one has been a doctor), and many classes are taught by teachers who don't even have a degree in the field. One of my teachers only has an undergraduate degree in the subject s/he is teaching. Another one of my teachers has neither a undergraduate degree or a graduate degree in the subject s/he is teaching. I don't know very much about Ivy League schools, but I would guess that neither of the aforementioned situations happen there. If the OP wants the best undergraduate academic education they can get, Yale seems to be the obvious choice to me. He will be surrounded by people with an average ACT 7 points higher, and teachers that are probably the very best in their respective fields.
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Actually, doctors don't teach undergrads at the Ivy's either. Undergrads are educated by grad students. Doctors do research and perhaps teach grad students. Also Ivy class size is in the hundreds which leads to a whole different quality of education, or lack thereof.
 
kinnem said:
You seem to keep insisting that Yale will not be physically exhausting. As NavyHoops pointed out earlier, participating in NROTC MO will leave OP physically exhausted, even at Yale. I certainly don't disagree that they are two different experiences though.
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Again, I apologize if I am making it sound like Yale with NROTC MO will not be exhausting; I truly understand it will be very difficult. To avoid implying that again, I will simply stand by my initial thought that they are two very different experiences. I hope after a visit to Yale, his decision will be much more obvious.
 
1337BeachedWhale1337 said:
In the Ivy Leagues I'm pretty sure they don't have all of their kids taking an introduction to calculus course their first year and students aren't given guides that tell them exactly what they need to know for each test...
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nobody responded to this? I understood that cadets take a math test on R day or during beast that slots them into the appropriate calculus course.....but is it true that cadets are given cheat sheets? I'm starting to wonder if that is not true. my best friend in HS went to USMA and he said it was easy.....I was better than him at math but went to Northwestern and I got hit by an artillery barrage with chemistry and calculus....
 
Everyone adapts to the college environment differently, especially at a SA. At a SA its more than just the academics, its the other stuff that squeezes more and more time. Its the watching standing, PT, Plebe duties, military knowledge and a whole host of other things that create the time crunch and exhaustion that can come with that. Comparing any school to a SA is hard to do and is never an apples to apples comparison. There are pros and cons to a SA education. I can't speak to USMA directly, but I went back and looked at my transcript a few minutes ago. Majority of classes at USNA were taught by PhDs. The only classes that I had there that were taught by those with a BA/BS were military classes like Navigation or Tactics taught by a uniformed member. I don't need a PhD Professor to teach that. I need someone who knows that stuff inside and out and has had some training in how to teach. All my upper level classes were taught by a PhD except for 3. Both were Masters level military profs who were excellent professors. Out of curiosity I searched the Princeton Course Catalog... they have Pre-Calc with a class capacity of 40. My Plebe Year at USNA we had 1 section of Pre-Calc and it had 10 people in it, can't speak to USMA. Not sure about cheat sheets at USMA... at USNA some profs tended to spoon feed us exam prep, very few did, I can remember in 2-3 classes max that did this. I know at USNA the course curriculum regardless of major is very STEM related. At Yale if you major in a humanities subject my guess is your course schedule will look dramatically different than someone who is an English Major at a SA. Yale isn't there to produce future military officers, USMA is. Its their mission. Bottom line, go to the school that feels right for you future. If you envision your future as a military officer, then focus on if that is a Marine or Army uniform.
 
AirsoftRanger said:
nobody responded to this? I understood that cadets take a math test on R day or during beast that slots them into the appropriate calculus course.....but is it true that cadets are given cheat sheets? I'm starting to wonder if that is not true. my best friend in HS went to USMA and he said it was easy.....I was better than him at math but went to Northwestern and I got hit by an artillery barrage with chemistry and calculus....
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We aren't given cheat sheets, but for many classes there are resources that provide basically exactly what you need to know. Like for math, they have suggested problems, and if you understand how to do the suggested problems and don't make any dumb mistakes, you will get an A on the test.
 
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