Update on disenrollment from NROTC

dunninla said:
interesting the above speculation about bankruptcy... does anyone know for a fact whether a debt imposed by the military may be discharged in bankruptcy court?
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Student loan debts are not discharged under bankruptcy. Fact.
11 USC 523 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/11/523

However.......

Educational Credit Management Corp. vs Keldric Dante Mosley (11th Circuit Court of Appeals, 2007)

...allows the discharge if they create "undue hardship."

The Bankruptcy Code provides that student loans generally are not to be discharged. 11 U.S.C. § 523(a)(8). A narrow exception is made, however, where “excepting such debt from discharge . . . will impose an undue hardship on the debtor and the debtor’s dependents.” Id. The Bankruptcy Code does not define “undue hardship,” but this Circuit has joined several others in adopting the standard set forth in Brunner v. New York State Higher Education Services Corp., 831 F.2d 395, 396 (2d Cir. 1987). See In re Cox, 338 F.3d at 1241.

To establish undue hardship, the Brunner standard requires the debtor to prove by a preponderance of the evidence:

(1) that the debtor cannot maintain, based on current income and expenses, a ‘minimal’ standard of living for [himself] and [his] dependents if forced to repay the loans;

(2) that additional circumstances exist indicating that this state of affairs is likely to persist for a significant portion of the repayment period of the student loans; and

(3) that the debtor has made good faith efforts to repay the loans
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If I have read that right, I would doubt it would be discharged.

First, he would have to prove he won't be like 30% of all college grads these days....boomerang back home to folks basement.

Secondly prove that his folks will kick him out in the foreseeable future.

Thirdly, it appears that he has to make good faith to repay them, and it didn't work out.

The AND in the comment appears to me that #2 AND 3 must both be fulfilled simultaneously.

It would hard to discharge it especially if the Navy will give him 10 yrs to pay back.
 
I think I would do everything I could do to enlist. I would get in good shape, and beg the Navy to allow me to enlist. It may not be what he dreamed of doing, but it would be an honorable job, and would allow him to earn money and benefits. He might even get a commission if he performs well as an enlisted man.
 
040726 said:
I think I would do everything I could do to enlist. I would get in good shape, and beg the Navy to allow me to enlist. It may not be what he dreamed of doing, but it would be an honorable job, and would allow him to earn money and benefits. He might even get a commission if he performs well as an enlisted man.
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I don't think there is a chance of enlisting. OK maybe a very very slim chance. The money is needed more than manpower.
 
+1 kinnem.

The fact is the statement we always says is still true in this case.

You serve for the needs of the military. Right now the fact is they are still cutting manpower for some branches, and for some career fields.

For Hewson, this is an additional issue in their mind. Morale! Do you think forcing someone that asked to leave is a positive or a negative impact on morale when they didn't want to be an officer in the 1st place? Think about it from a management perspective. It is not ideal to have a person serve 4 yrs resenting the military because they took a college loan and are there not out of desire to defend, but desire not to owe 96K bucks over 10 yrs.
 
enlisting option

I know it is listed as an option but how does enlisting repay the debt?
I just don't follow.
 
Simple.

Think business/corporate world.

If all of you hrly employees (emlisted) hold a college degree instead of a HS degree the caliber of employees will be higher, and theoretically the company will be more successful compared to the competition that is all HS.

It is about the quality of the employee. They are getting a college educated member at an enlisted rank pay.

The problem is they have to hope they want to be there on their own steam, and not forced to be there.

How many 22 yr olds do you know that will be happy saluting everyday an O1 when they know if things were different they would have been saluted to each and everytime for yrs?
 
enlisting

I see, so it's not necessarily all about the money, it's what's best in each situation.

For example if you had a scholarship cadet that just plain couldn't cut it at decision making, grades or just came to the realization that being an officer wasn't what they were cut out to be but hadn't done anything wrong, it might be easier for them to use the enlistment as an option instead of someone that committed a code violation or just quit because they didn't want to be there any longer.
 
In this current environment, it is better to just not play that game and expect repayment.
 
Luigi59 said:
Student loan debts are not discharged under bankruptcy. Fact.
11 USC 523 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/11/523

However.......

Educational Credit Management Corp. vs Keldric Dante Mosley (11th Circuit Court of Appeals, 2007)

...allows the discharge if they create "undue hardship."
Click to expand...
Simply a question: Does breaking the contract agreement result in a student loan? Not is it like a loan or similar to a loan. It is definitely a debt but I don't know if it is a student loan debt. I am guessing one of the lawyer types on here can answer this.
 
many of the above comments are relevant if the debt imposed by the Army/Navy/Air Force is considered *student loan debt*. However, I don't think it would be.

So the question remains... can a person discharge a debt owed the government in bankruptcy court?
 
I would think if they are given a repayment schedule it is a FEDERAL loan, thus if they default they can attach liens to their pay and tax returns.

It is not a loan you are taking at your closest bank. It is a loan via the federal govt. just like FAFSA. That would also mean it would come back to the discharging of a student loan as Luigi posted earlier.

I am not even sure why we are discussing defaulting. Anyone that defaults by declaring bankruptcy at 22 better like their parents house because their credit will be horrific until their 30. Many employers look at credit before they hire. Basically, it is better IMPO to take the 10 yr loan, pay 800 a month, and get a good job than looking at it as 96K of debt that you can never get out from under.
 
I do not visit this board very often, but happened to check in tonight.

Just to clarify since I am the OP of this thread...

Son brought before board 3 weeks before graduation/commissioning, not 6 weeks

No, he did not realize he was 8 pounds overweight

His original DFAS bill was 4,000 a month for 3 years. He asked to reduce amount to less - than it was 1200 for 10 years, plus interest

Not dischargable debt. Cannot deduct interest on taxes, either.

Yes, we would have qualified for substantial financial aid for at least two years, as my husband was downsized out of his job.

Our elected representatives were of absolutely no help, whatsoever.

We retained a retired military attorney, which has helped him in completing paperwork for appeals.

If he had left ROTC of his own accord after freshman year, they would not have billed him for that year. They do if dissenrolled after that time if seeking payback.

It s at discretion of commanders what kind of payback - money or service - tgat they want.

Ironically, even though son was told he was dissenrolled three weeks before graduation/commissioning, the CO was nice enough to sign those papers the day my son should have been given his stripes. What a really sweet gesture, to twist that knife just a little more.

I would love to say I have seen the contract, but as I previously mentioned many posts ago, his battalion "misplaced" it long ago. We know it exists, yet when he asked for his file, it wasn't there. It was missing when he originally signed it in sophomore year. A name mixup, supposedly. Lots of shoddy paperwork over the course of multiple years in that battalion. Reports signed by CO months - or even years (not kidding) before son saw reports.

Never failed PT, not once.

Takeaway is, don't send your kid to a school that you cannot afford if scholarship is lost.

The other thing to remember is, don't ever screw up in ROTC. Ever. Big mistakes, little mistakes can add up to you being booted.

How many college scholarships do you know that can taken away retroactively for previous years studies, besides ROTC and Service academies? Anyone? Anyone? There aren't any that I know of.

It was not clear to us at any time during the application process that normal financial aid would not be processed the same way as for other students. If we had known, we would have encouraged him to attend the much lower cost school that he was accepted to.

Yes, he is an adult, now. He wasn't when applying for NROTC. I did a huge amount of research and never even heard of disenrollement orbit's ramifications until that day he contacted us with the news.

Every branch is different, and every CO s different. What is a kicking out offense in one battalion may get a warning in another.

Lots of things to learn from our situation. The only reason I post here periodically is to remind kids and their parents to use caution and read the fine print. We were dazzled by this dream come true for our son, not realizing that he would face this difficult situation at this age. This kid had wanted to serve since he was 11 or 12, and it was pretty shattering when that dream ended.

Ironically, we pushed him to apply for NROTC scholarship. He really had initially wanted to enlist.
 
Gojira,

Thank you for clarifying some of these details. There are no words for how horrified I am at how your DS was treated by his CO and battalion. The added details that CO signed his disenrollment on commissioning/graduation day literally made me want to throw up -- that kind of mental cruelty is just uncalled for in any professional situation or human interaction.

Again, there are no words, but thank you for continuing to share this outrageous situation with us.
 
Gojira, I'm pretty new to this board and am shocked at this thread. My DS was awarded an AROTC scholarship in January; I am going to make sure he understands the ramifications! While we discussed "what ifs", your situation is much more concrete. This is truly scary.
Is it inappropriate to ask the name of the college/ university involved?
 
Unfortunately, gojira's DS is not the only one. In the yrs I have been here, I would say I have seen at least 2 posters a yr that have an issue.

Some are they want to quit, but can't afford to stay at the college if they quit.

Some disenrolled from ROTC because of academics for the scholarship, but not kicked out of the college. I don't know AROTC's mins, but AFROTC it is 2.5. Thus, they can stay at the school, but not with the scholarship.
~~~ Kids tend to think that because they have a 3.5 in HS, all APs it will translate into a 3.5 at college. They have yet to understand college has a lot more distractions than HS, and ROTC is one of them, along with dorm parties, football, basketball games, fraternities, etc.

Some are cut lose. There is a scuttlebutt thread going on this forum that VT, AROTC has announced that the bottom 10% of cadets will be cut. VT OOS is not cheap.
~~~ Those cadets probably will not have to pay anything back, but the problem is where they will find the money to stay at VT.

3 yrs ago, at our DS's AFROTC unit, a cadet was let loose 6 weeks prior to commissioning. Just like Gojira's DS, he had a career assignment. The difference was, for him, they said, fly be free. No debt owed.

At the same time, actually 6 months later, one of his friends returned from summer training, decided he wanted out, and the AF said you owe us 2 yrs of scholarship...pay now.

It is a case by case scenario, but as the old adage goes. Hope for the best, but expect the worst. If you enter with the premise that nothing is sure until you raise your right hand and take the oath of office, you will be fine.
 
In the same boat with jbm02. Perhaps a PM from someone with the name/location of battalion is possible. Your story is invaluable, Gojira. I'm sure it is painful to share, but much appreciated.
 
Just curious why anyone would want to know.

1. Det Commanders are AD military. Tours are usually 3-4 yrs. This occurred 18 months ago. Even if they were only in the position for 6 months. They would be PCSing 1 yr from now, or at least working on their next job.

~~~ Paperwork is not handled by the CoC, but the NCOIC, at least for AFROTC. That means they could be gone too.

2. If you are AROTC, and even if it is the same college, they were NROTC.

~~~ Different branches.

Not trying to ruffle feathers, just trying to understand why the college matters.
 
The CO was leaving a few months after this decision, so yes, he is gone, now. His first CO during the first two years was absolutely amazing. Morale was high in unit, too.
 
Thanks to the OP for sharing this unfortunate experience. After learning of similar instances and the pitfalls of being an ROTC cadet at a civilian college/university, I am more convinced that given a choice between attending a SA and ROTC scholarship, this helps make the decision easier to make.
 
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