USAFA application

[falconfamily]

This message thread could be an example of the Tzo Divide

This is exactly what the Tzo divide describes. The perspective of cadets with respect to IC's and non-IC's. The academy has been trying to bridge that gap for years, but clearly the gap is deep and wide.

 

[Christcorp]

Most of us know you are a cadet. Your screen name sort of says so. And you are obviously upset by some of the responses. No need to be. What we seem to disagree on is that you believe that even one athlete given an appointment over someone else who had a higher GPA and/or SAT/ACT scores. (I say that because you emphasized that these weren't the majority of athletes with 3.8+ type gpa's in high school). I guess this is simply an area we will have to agree to disagree on. (That even one is too many).

If we went with your preference of appointments, we would have to scrap 100% in it's entirety, the existing appointment process. The law would have to be changed. Everything that the military wants in an officer would also have to be reevaluated.

Basically; do you think athletes (Even just one) are the only cadets in your class that had any special consideration? They aren't the only ones at the prep school either. As I mentioned previously, every district and state gets a fair share of appointees. But is that really fair. Is it fair if an appointee from North Dakota had an overall lower score than someone who DIDN'T receive an appointment from California? Is it fair that an individual with an appointment has an "Overall" higher score than a non-appointee, yet the non-appointee had a better GPA and SAT/ACT scores. Is it fair in the military's search for diversity that economics, race, heritage, gender, upbringing, family history, etc... plays a part in it? Or should it only be about academics?

Apparently you don't mind that an eagle scout, billy mitchell award winner, high ranking ROTC, etc... is looked at with preference over some who didn't achieve that high. Especially if they had higher academics.

Guess what I'm saying is that in the search for total diversity; and finding individuals that excel in certain talents, skills, leadership, academics, arts, etc... is great..... But apparently, the athlete who excelled doesn't count.

I'd agree with you totally if the athlete(s) in question didn't meet at least the minimum standards set for the academy. But that is not something I have found. Thank you for letting me rant. I respect your position. I really do. I have similar discussions all the time about this very subject. Not always about athletes either. Sometimes it's the first person in their family to ever try and attend college; or the applicant raised in an orphange. Or the native american who was brought up in poverty and is trying to break the cycle.

Anyway; thanks again USAFA_2012. I do respect you opinion. None of this is personal. We see the system from different windows in the same house. Best to you. Mike....

 

[kdc246]

DD(class of 2014-NARP) weighted GPA-4.45 SAT 2200 (taken one time)Valedictorian private college prep high school, varsity softball 4 yrs. some club activity, National Merit Scholar. No additional letters of recommendation. Accepted off of weight list in 2010. Presidential Nomination(only one applied with)

DS(appointee 2016-RA) weighted GPA-3.86 SAT 2000 (taken three times and super scored) public high school, club swimmer for 7 years, Varsity swimmer 4 years, Eagle scout at 14, scattered club activity. Three additional letters of recommendation. Recruited athlete-Appointed October 31, 2011. Presidential Nomination(received appointment before MOC interviewed)

DD is successful at USAFA, she has struggled with the fitness portion of daily cadet life, academically and militarily she is sound.
Do I worry that DS will struggle academically? Yes, but I know the resources are there for him to use. I will strongly suggest them anytime he has trouble.

Can you predict who will be a good officer? I think they both will but I am prejudiced, I am their mother. Who will make it a career, who will 5 and dive or neither? How do you know what internal fortitude people have and what drives them? These are the questions that come to my mind. How can you judge a book by its cover? You can't, you have to put some trust in the system. Just my two cents, that wasn't asked for but I felt the need to post. By the way we are from Northern California.

 

[USAFA_2012]

DD(class of 2014-NARP)

hahahahaha , the seriousness of your post implies that you think "NARP" is an official USAFA acronym, which i found just plain hilarious.

the truth is that it's a derogatory term that IC's like to call non-IC's.

another one is NICAD: non-IC authoritarian despot (courtesy of the track coach)

but in response, us "regulars" will say

NARP - non academic ******** person

or more common is DARP - dumb-ass recruited person.


in a lot of ways, it's all in good fun. i know the t-zo gap is far and wide, but most of us don't think we're qualitatively "better" than the other.

 

[Christcorp]

You bring up a very good point 2012. My experience; from the outside for many years; is just like anything, there are the "FEW" that create a stereotype. Just like your legitimate position on some athletes that maybe shouldn't have received an appointment over another who had better GPA/ACT/SAT, the same applies in the cadet wing. There are probably more IC's doing real well academically; holding their own; contributing to the squadron duties; etc... than the few who aren't. But it's some of these few that create the stereotype of the entire IC world.

 

[kdc246]

hahahahaha , the seriousness of your post implies that you think "NARP" is an official USAFA acronym, which i found just plain hilarious.

lol, agreed DD does know it is a derogatory term, however she has embraced it and is proud to call herself a N.A.R.P. and a nerd. If you have to be one, doesn't mean you look like one though. I know it is not an official acronym, but it does allow me to discern between the two, good or bad. No offense made or taken. Cheers!

 

[falconfamily]

USAFA_2012, it is not so much that people might feel this way, it is when they act upon those perceptions that problems arise. I know of too many instances where IC's get "special" treatment from their squadron leadership because of their commitment to a sport. i.e. being brought before srb's for phantom offenses or for a perceived lack of military bearing. That is where the problems lie and it is best to understand the motivation behind these attitudes rather than be a slave to personal impulse.

My two cents as a former NCO and Officer of 20 years.

hahahahaha , the seriousness of your post implies that you think "NARP" is an official USAFA acronym, which i found just plain hilarious.

the truth is that it's a derogatory term that IC's like to call non-IC's.

another one is NICAD: non-IC authoritarian despot (courtesy of the track coach)

but in response, us "regulars" will say

NARP - non academic ******** person

or more common is DARP - dumb-ass recruited person.


in a lot of ways, it's all in good fun. i know the t-zo gap is far and wide, but most of us don't think we're qualitatively "better" than the other.

 

[AFAYahoo]

USAFA_2012, it is not so much that people might feel this way, it is when they act upon those perceptions that problems arise. I know of too many instances where IC's get "special" treatment from their squadron leadership because of their commitment to a sport. i.e. being brought before srb's for phantom offenses or for a perceived lack of military bearing. That is where the problems lie and it is best to understand the motivation behind these attitudes rather than be a slave to personal impulse.

My two cents as a former NCO and Officer of 20 years.

And from the other side, my son mentioned (after having roomed with athletes) that some IC's found a way to "disappear" during pre-Recognition training and go hang out in one of the athletic buildings with their coach's approval, even though it wasn't officially practice or other scheduled workout time. The athletes joked about it. In that instance, its easy to see why others in the squadron might become upset.

And about recruiting, a student from our high school, who blossomed in their sport senior year of high school, was suddenly recruited hard by the AFA. This student had a 24 on their ACT, no leadership activities just sports, had no interest at all in and hadn't applied to any service academy, but was flattered by the attention so went for a visit. Because all this was happening right before the deadline for MOC nominations, the AFA worked it out so this person didn't have to interview, but amazingly got one of the nominations. The coach told the student there would be an appt if the student wanted one, but the student luckily realized it wasn't a good fit and went elsewhere on a scholarship. I know the family, so I know its true. These are the kind of stories, hopefully few and far between, that give credence to the idea that athletes are given special treatment and don't have to meet the same standards as other applicants/appointees.

 

[melindayching]

This topic of athletes and non-athletes and the admission and treatment of both is just about the most contentious one that comes up on this forum. I've read many many threads devoted to the topic of IC athletes as well as many threads that somehow get diverted into the topic. Everyone has a story from both sides of the debate, it is clear. In full disclosure, my daughter will be an IC in the class of 2016. She was not recruited but put herself out there and was fortunate to both get an appointment and a spot on the team.
This weekend I watched the video of the presentation of the CIC trophy, and I thought it was a great representation of USAFA, not just our football team. The focus of the comments from Coach Calhoun and the President was on what these athletes will go on to do as officers to serve their country and not as much on their accomplishments on the field. It was a wonderful moment for USAFA in my opinion. Also a former teammate of my daughter competed against USAFA this past year and said that these girls were about the best competitors she has competed against...they were respectful and courteous, disciplined and feminine all at the same time. These athletes do more than their sport. They are representatives of USAFA, and that is both a privilege and a responsibility that they take seriously.
I'm sure I've wandered off topic; sorry about that.

 

[USAFA_2012]

And from the other side, my son mentioned (after having roomed with athletes) that some IC's found a way to "disappear" during pre-Recognition training and go hang out in one of the athletic buildings with their coach's approval, even though it wasn't officially practice or other scheduled workout time. The athletes joked about it. In that instance, its easy to see why others in the squadron might become upset.

And about recruiting, a student from our high school, who blossomed in their sport senior year of high school, was suddenly recruited hard by the AFA. This student had a 24 on their ACT, no leadership activities just sports, had no interest at all in and hadn't applied to any service academy, but was flattered by the attention so went for a visit. Because all this was happening right before the deadline for MOC nominations, the AFA worked it out so this person didn't have to interview, but amazingly got one of the nominations. The coach told the student there would be an appt if the student wanted one, but the student luckily realized it wasn't a good fit and went elsewhere on a scholarship. I know the family, so I know its true. These are the kind of stories, hopefully few and far between, that give credence to the idea that athletes are given special treatment and don't have to meet the same standards as other applicants/appointees.

ah yes AFAYahoo, you bring up the reason WHY there is a tzo gap, or at least the biggest reason why it exists: 4 DEG YEAR.

us "regulars" had to go through intense military training that was almost nonexistent with the IC's. i'm not talking about physical training -- but mental. while i was watching my classmate do pushups until he wanted to cry, all because of my inability to recount a certain piece of knowledge, my IC football buddies were down at the field house hanging out with their team on the field, or maybe playing xbox or playstation in their athletic room (yes, they have those down there). while i was carrying another classmate after a 3 hour rifle run, my IC friends were off at chic-fil-et with their team.

seroiusly, how fair is it that in mitch's during lunch, "NARPS" are busting their butts at their squadron tables trying to recall "checkpoints" at full attention, while the IC freshman get to chill out with their upperclass teammates?

the differences in how cadets are treated during freshman year has a significant impact on how they are "raised". this attitude of "i'm an IC i don't have to do the military thing" among the 4th class is what gives rise to the t-zo gap.

we have airfield cadets involved with airfield operations to a similar level that IC's are involved with athletics, but there is no "airfield gap".

my point is simple: unless 4 deg year is much more standardized across THE ENTIRE CLASS, the t-zo gap will remain as bad as it is.

 

[profsparrow]

Just a note about athletes. One of the moderators on one of the threads posted an insight to think about. All of the SAs look for a multitude of items about candidates, including "blue-chip" athletes. If you are outstanding in academics you are given "extra points" because of that. Being an outstanding athlete should be no different, you should get "extra points" for that as well. The SAs look at the "whole candidate," extraordinary athletics certainly should be considered in the WCS, just as extraordinary academics should. A recruited athlete would be just as justified in questioning the extra consideration an outstanding academician gets as you are questioning outstanding athleticism.

That being said, even the "blue-chip" athletes have to be pretty outstanding academically to be accepted and be successful at the Academy. They may struggle with the academics, but do the academicians struggle with the athletic requirements? I'm sure that some do. SAs require that you do well in every aspect, not everything is easy for everybody. Also consider that these recruited athletes have to practice heavily for their sport, taking away study time. So they may not do as well academically as the other cadets. They can be separated for not doing well academically, just as others can be separated for not meeting the physical requirements.

My DS will be going to USNA, he is not a recruited athlete. I just wanted to share this because I've seen a lot of angst about recruited athletes, and I really don't believe it's fair.

 

[fencersmother]

Prof, that is about the best I have ever heard/read the tension that exists in the minds of some folks between academics and athletics.

My sons, both athletes, are flying academically too, but especially as 4*, it was EXTREMELY difficult to manage travel, practice, classroom work and homework, plus all the military and other attendant duties.

It's always the whole package.

 

[2bornot2b]

ah yes AFAYahoo, you bring up the reason WHY there is a tzo gap, or at least the biggest reason why it exists: 4 DEG YEAR.

us "regulars" had to go through intense military training that was almost nonexistent with the IC's. i'm not talking about physical training -- but mental. while i was watching my classmate do pushups until he wanted to cry, all because of my inability to recount a certain piece of knowledge, my IC football buddies were down at the field house hanging out with their team on the field, or maybe playing xbox or playstation in their athletic room (yes, they have those down there). while i was carrying another classmate after a 3 hour rifle run, my IC friends were off at chic-fil-et with their team.

seroiusly, how fair is it that in mitch's during lunch, "NARPS" are busting their butts at their squadron tables trying to recall "checkpoints" at full attention, while the IC freshman get to chill out with their upperclass teammates?

the differences in how cadets are treated during freshman year has a significant impact on how they are "raised". this attitude of "i'm an IC i don't have to do the military thing" among the 4th class is what gives rise to the t-zo gap.

we have airfield cadets involved with airfield operations to a similar level that IC's are involved with athletics, but there is no "airfield gap".

my point is simple: unless 4 deg year is much more standardized across THE ENTIRE CLASS, the t-zo gap will remain as bad as it is.

Ancient philosopher Epictetus (A.D. 55-135) gave this advice:
"Welcome present circumstances and accept the things whose time has arrived. Keep your will in line with events".....
In other words: don't argue with what IS (in your mind or out aloud). No useless complaining, blaming, getting irritated, making wrong. It's an enormous waste of energy. It diminishes your ability to think clearly and take effective action. It contaminates your life with negativity, and then you spread it to others.

It is a pointless waste of your energy and time to allow the situation to bother you so much. It is what it is. Focus your time, and energy on what you need to accomplish and let the other stuff be.

 

[Christcorp]

Excellent advice 2B. There always seems to be someone or some group that upsets another group. I've heard so many complaints over the years. Not necessarily still in effect today. About athletes; from athletes; about church goers; about Drum/Bugle; honor guard; wings of blue; active duty base team athletes; active duty tactical afsc's with blanket orders who didn't have to play war games and exercises when in garrison; going TDY and being allowed to wear only civilian clothes; etc...

In 21 years, I've seen and heard just about every group complain about another group and others complain about that group. I think the reason that athletes at the academy seem to be a bigger issue is because:
1. The stereotype of "College Athletics/Athletes" and that they are generally dumb jocks and always get special treatment at ALL universities. (Mind you I said STEREOTYPE). It's not exactly how so many believe it is.
2. There are some that do abuse their position as an inter-collegiate athlete. There are plenty of IC's who are totally part of their squadron. Especially in the off season. They want leadership roles; good squadron/group/wing jobs; etc... But there are some that take advantage and abuse their position. They set a bad example and give the rest of the IC's a bad rep.

 

[Bill1899]

Use of the term "NARP"

"hahahahaha , the seriousness of your post implies that you think "NARP" is an official USAFA acronym, which i found just plain hilarious.

the truth is that it's a derogatory term that IC's like to call non-IC's.

another one is NICAD: non-IC authoritarian despot (courtesy of the track coach)

but in response, us "regulars" will say

NARP - non academic ******** person"
________________________________________________________________
USAF 2012 and Kdc246:

As the sibling of an intellectually disabled person I must take issue with your repulsive and offensive language. There is nothing hilarious about making fun of people with intellectual disabilities and using terms that further the discrimination against these people shows your extreme ignorance and bias to ward’s people that have disabilities.

If this forum is going to prohibit language that is offensive to certain races, ethnicities or genders than I believe language that is offensive to disabled American's and their families should also be banned.

Thank You

 

[kdc246]

"hahahahaha , the seriousness of your post implies that you think "NARP" is an official USAFA acronym, which i found just plain hilarious.

the truth is that it's a derogatory term that IC's like to call non-IC's.

another one is NICAD: non-IC authoritarian despot (courtesy of the track coach)

but in response, us "regulars" will say

NARP - non academic ******** person"
________________________________________________________________
USAF 2012 and Kdc246:

As the sibling of an intellectually disabled person I must take issue with your repulsive and offensive language. There is nothing hilarious about making fun of people with intellectual disabilities and using terms that further the discrimination against these people shows your extreme ignorance and bias to ward’s people that have disabilities.

If this forum is going to prohibit language that is offensive to certain races, ethnicities or genders than I believe language that is offensive to disabled American's and their families should also be banned.

Thank You

Okay, I will first state that in my mind it was never offensive. It did not get offensive to me until USAF_2012 spelled it out his/her way. My DD explained to me that NARP=Non Athletic Regular Person, so one who is not an IC. My kid is a nerd from the get go. I am sorry you ASSUMED incorrectly on my post. We all come into this world in different ways, I have three children and they couldn't have more diverse personalities and capabilities. I have struggled to protect my youngest from bullies his whole life....including adults. You can jump off your horse anytime you feel like it now. I would be the last person to slur against anyone, especially someone who is disabled. SORRY, I didn't just drop everything to put my version out there. I learned a long time ago in forum type venues to let stuff roll off. How ever I will not be bullied either, when I did NOTHING WRONG!

 

[USAFA_2012]

Okay, I will first state that in my mind it was never offensive. It did not get offensive to me until USAF_2012 spelled it out his/her way. My DD explained to me that NARP=Non Athletic Regular Person, so one who is not an IC. My kid is a nerd from the get go. I am sorry you ASSUMED incorrectly on my post. We all come into this world in different ways, I have three children and they couldn't have more diverse personalities and capabilities. I have struggled to protect my youngest from bullies his whole life....including adults. You can jump off your horse anytime you feel like it now. I would be the last person to slur against anyone, especially someone who is disabled. SORRY, I didn't just drop everything to put my version out there. I learned a long time ago in forum type venues to let stuff roll off. How ever I will not be bullied either, when I did NOTHING WRONG!

the most common term for "NARP" is non academic regular person.

however, some people say it to mean "non academic ******** person" as a joke. but its purely a joke, we don't really think that IC's have downs.

 

[2bornot2b]

the most common term for "NARP" is non academic regular person.

however, some people say it to mean "non academic ******** person" as a joke. but its purely a joke, we don't really think that IC's have downs.

The word "******" when used as a noun, is slang. One might consider whether is it judicious to use slang at all, except perhaps in locker rooms. especially when the slang word is disparaging, as this word is, when used this way. To use a slang word, which is also disparaging, in the context of persons with Downs Syndrome, however, is inexcusably offensive. You obviously are not aware of it, but only an ignorant, and/or insensitive person would say what you just said. I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you are simply ignorant of how offensive the word is, when used the way you used it. You are healthy and bright, things come to you easily and the world is at your feet. Please take the time to consider that not all people are fortunate to be as healthy as you are, not all people are blessed with the intellectual capacity you have, and many people struggle to be treated with dignity, even though all people deserve it, no matter what.

 

[USAFA_2012]

The word "******" when used as a noun, is slang. One might consider whether is it judicious to use slang at all, except perhaps in locker rooms. especially when the slang word is disparaging, as this word is, when used this way. To use a slang word, which is also disparaging, in the context of persons with Downs Syndrome, however, is inexcusably offensive. You obviously are not aware of it, but only an ignorant, and/or insensitive person would say what you just said. I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you are simply ignorant of how offensive the word is, when used the way you used it. You are healthy and bright, things come to you easily and the world is at your feet. Please take the time to consider that not all people are fortunate to be as healthy as you are, not all people are blessed with the intellectual capacity you have, and many people struggle to be treated with dignity, even though all people deserve it, no matter what.

i read that 5 times and am still struggling to understand you.

in plain language, do you have an issue with the word "******" or "downs"?

 

[Let'sGoFlying]

Hello everyone, but I would appreciate it if you stopped talking about people that are mentally challenged. I trully feel sorry for these people and wouldn't dare to speak about their disabilities. Look for the good things in a person, not the bad things.