Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

Freda'sMom said:
Read it again - this is not the whining of a disenrolled cadet or midshipman, giving excuses to parents and friends - this is their detailers/cadre admitting that they are more than willing and able to direct subtle hazing and extra pressure to influence a new cadet/basic/swab/etc to DOR.
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I think more people are arguing that if a cadet is influenced to drop, that it is still the cadet making the decision.
 
kinnem said:
I think more people are arguing that if a cadet is influenced to drop, that it is still the cadet making the decision.
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I'm not disagreeing with that sentiment.

My original post was to refute a comment from someone who doubted that kind of influence (which can also be called pressure, hazing, or bullying) takes place.
 
I don't think the disagreements or debates are about whether or not individuals are and have been "Influenced" to quit. After reading all of these pages, I get the feeling that the reason the debate still lingers, is because different people have different definitions on what they consider to be hazing, bullying, etc.

Just because an individual says they were bullied into quitting, doesn't mean they were. It may be their perception; and for them, perception is truth. That doesn't mean they were bullied.

I explain to all of my appointees before they go off to the academy, that going to the academy or joining the military is like moving to a new country. They will have different customs, different values, and it's a whole different lifestyle. Just because it's not what they are use to doesn't mean it's wrong. If they want to live there, they have to adapt and assimilate into that culture. If a woman moves to Saudi Arabia or some other arabic/muslim countries, having to wear clothing in public that covers her body and head is NOT WRONG. She may not like it and isn't use to it, but it's not wrong. It's a different culture with different customs. And having lived there for a while, many of the stereotypes that "Americans" have of people there being oppressed, simply isn't true. The allegations most times is because the individual is trying to base the lifestyle in Saudi Arabia to their own here in the USA. The military is no different. Just because the environment is not the same as at home, and the discipline and such is more intense than what mom and dad gave you, doesn't mean it's wrong. It doesn't mean it's hazing or bullying. It's a different culture and cadets have to accept it for what it is.

Just about everyone here has agreed that a line can be crossed whereby unacceptable hazing and such could be crossed. But we're also saying, that we haven't seen any proof of such a thing throughout this thread. And generally speaking, we don't hear of any. A cadet who quits, might use those words. Especially as reasons to leave. But that doesn't mean it's true. Just their perception of a society that they are trying to compare to a society that they are familiar with. Just like the woman who worked for me in Saudi Arabia who thought wearing head and body covering was oppressive and wrong. No, it wasn't. It was their culture. Don't compare it to your culture in the USA. If you can't handle it, then go back to the states. Same with the academy. Most of the complaints I've heard over the years about BCT, and even during the academic years, is about things that aren't necessarily wrong or bad, they are just different from the individual's previous life, therefor they "Perceive" it to be bad or wrong. Again, if you don't like that culture and society, then move back home.

And this is why this thread could theoretically go on for many more pages. Because half of the posters here probably won't agree with the other half on what "Constitutes" hazing, bullying, etc. There's words in the english vocabulary that mean different things in Texas, California, New Jersey, England, Scotland, etc. Why should it be any different here. The extreme discipline style of training at the academy and enlisted basic training has a different purpose than that of a normal training environment. As such, many could perceive it as mean, bullying, hazing, etc. But in the military society and culture, and defined by those who establish it, it isn't hazing or bullying. And there lies the problem. Most here admit that hazing and bullying could happen. We just don't believe that anything in this thread has shown that is has happened. A kid who quits and says they were bullied into quitting, most likely isn't true. The kid who says they were abused with hazing, most likely wasn't. And as far as "Hearing" directly from cadre members in the past that "THEY" were in a position to determine WHO can stay in THEIR MILITARY, that is just their EGO talking. They don't have nearly the power they want to believe. Chances are, they know they don't have that kind of power. They're just trying to impress you.

So, until there's proof of hazing or bullying, as defined by the academy in their training to the cadres, I won't accept the allegations. If an individual decided to quit, for whatever reason, (Even for perceived bullying), then they still made the final decision. They weren't FORCED to leave. And because they didn't take the complaint through the chain, I can't accept that either. Or what's more common is; an individual has a complaint about the training. They bring it to the proper attention of those in charge. The individual doesn't get the results they wanted. They believe the higher ups just blew them off and is siding with the cadre or senior cadets. The problem is, the truth probably was: "There is no problem, it's just your perception". That means deal with it, (Improvise, adapt, overcome); or quit.
 
To say it does not happen, to say it is not often hidden from oversight, to say it is not even sometimes condoned is to ignore the facts:

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-05-23/local/me-86_1_naval-academy

Instances like this and worse have been documented at all the Academies. It is not usual, but to say it does not happen ignores the facts.

There is so much that is so good about what happens at an Academy but like any larger organization - and there is nothing much larger than the military - occasionally bad things happen to good people and bad people can hide in the system.

To ignore the occasional bad is to diminish the good.
 
Christcorp said:
Just because an individual says they were bullied into quitting, doesn't mean they were. It may be their perception; and for them, perception is truth. That doesn't mean they were bullied.

So, until there's proof of hazing or bullying, as defined by the academy in their training to the cadres, I won't accept the allegations. If an individual decided to quit, for whatever reason, (Even for perceived bullying), then they still made the final decision. They weren't FORCED to leave. And because they didn't take the complaint through the chain, I can't accept that either.
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The point that continues to elude you is the "allegations" and "perceptions" told to me were not coming from a cadet/mid who left, but from the CADRE who ADMIT their behavior, and admit the purpose behind it.

Whether YOU choose to believe it or not is just your rose-colored glasses outlook that nothing wrong ever takes place there, when history has again and again taught us differently.

I'm done as nothing more I can say will ever get you to understand that things happen there that you may not like, and denying that doesn't change it.
 
I think what some people are suggesting is there are some basics that attract attention for one reason or another. Maybe they lack heart. Maybe they have an attitude. But they did figure out a way to get that "extra attention". IMHO in life, you better learn how to deflect negative attention. It is a skill and some people do it better than others.

This is a war leadership colleges. I personally can sleep at night knowing that it isn't always perfect.
 
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Freda'smom, what corrective action have you taken? You claim your knowledge of this hazing comes from the culprits. You claim to be a parent. Yet the only concern I see is that you make your point and convince this audience. You might have a valid point. You have yet to garner any credibility.
 
I have a difficult time believing that a cadre openly admitted and said, "we intentionally broke rules, intentionally lied, and intentionally covered up our actions of forcing kids to quit, where they had no recourse but to quit".

We might be back to that perception thing mentioned so many times. Either for ego, to brag, to seem important, or just to impress, these cadre saying such things may have been elaborating or embellishing the truth a bit. Or, it was received and interpreted inaccurately.

Guess it's possible, but I can't see a cadre openly saying they purposely and intentionally broke rules to try and force a kid to quit. That's a big admittance of guilt.
 
Wow, just wow. This thing was dead. Why in the world would you want to bring it back to life. 84dad19grad: In your short post you basically attacked the motivations and integrity of a forum member while at the same time implying they shirked some unspecified duty. While there has been some heated back and forth in this discussion, I'd like to congratulate you for being the first person in this extremely long thread for crossing these lines of decorum. Carry on!
 
Because I am a grad and a parent. And in both capacities I promise, I would be spending more time talking to people at the Academy than stroking my ego here if I had any proof of misconduct. I simply asked what action they have taken? I did not call names. I did not accuse of being a liar. I simply stated why I do not find them credible. Perhaps this can help them support their argument in a productive way rather than going in circles as it has. If you don't like my post, I do not care.
 
84grad19dad said:
Because I am a grad and a parent. And in both capacities I promise, I would be spending more time talking to people at the Academy than stroking my ego here if I had any proof of misconduct. I simply asked what action they have taken? I did not call names. I did not accuse of being a liar. I simply stated why I do not find them credible. Perhaps this can help them support their argument in a productive way rather than going in circles as it has. If you don't like my post, I do not care.
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Yeah, I can see how this will move the discussion forward in a productive way.
 
If their are cadets actively abusing their position power and tarnishing the Academy and harming individuals then action should be taken. Talking about it serves little value once the issue has been identified. I have seen no requests for help in how to address alleged misconduct. And for 15 pages, I have respected the value of venting for the poster. Now, my alma mater, the current home of my DS is being tarnished by unsubstantiated claims. Shut up or put up. Do not leave my DS at risk and do not continue to attack my alma mater without evidence.
 
Christcorp said:
I have a difficult time believing that a cadre openly admitted and said, "we intentionally broke rules, intentionally lied, and intentionally covered up our actions of forcing kids to quit, where they had no recourse but to quit".
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The quote you cite was never stated. I can't find it anywhere on this thread. Who are you quoting and what is the source?
 
84grad19dad said:
Freda'smom, what corrective action have you taken? You claim your knowledge of this hazing comes from the culprits. You claim to be a parent. Yet the only concern I see is that you make your point and convince this audience. You might have a valid point. You have yet to garner any credibility.
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84grad19dad said:
ecause I am a grad and a parent. And in both capacities I promise, I would be spending more time talking to people at the Academy than stroking my ego here if I had any proof of misconduct. I simply asked what action they have taken? I did not call names. I did not accuse of being a liar. I simply stated why I do not find them credible. Perhaps this can help them support their argument in a productive way rather than going in circles as it has. If you don't like my post, I do not care.
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I am going to address these comments from the point of view of a fellow civilian non-military parent:

Point 1: Why aren't you as a parent taking "corrective actions" and "spending more time talk to people at the Academy"?
As a parent, it has been made patently obvious to me that my opinion, thoughts, input and ideas are not welcome at the Academy (putting that grammar thread to use with capitalization of Academy:) ). The only thing that matters is monetary donations to the AOG. Other than a monetary donation, I have no value. Thus, what would be the point of my speaking up when no one at the Academy cares or wants to listen to a parent? If I ever doubted the importance of my point of view, I would only have to ask here and be quickly "put in my place." Also, it is all said and done. There is no going back after the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed on the form-34.

Point 2: "You have yet to garner any credibility"
It has been made evidently clear that my view and knowledge as a civilian is seen as unreliable and highly suspect. Anything I share is dismissed as opinion or unenlightened. If I disagree, it is because I just don't appreciate the military and how hard it has to be. As a civilian, I can't possibly have any valid points as I haven't served my time. There is no way I can garner any credibility. I suspect if I had managed to catch an entire incident on go-pro with perfect visuals and sounds, it would be suspect and dismissed as either edited or out of context.

Point 3: "I would be spending more time talking to people at the Academy than stroking my ego here if I had any proof of misconduct." and
I did not see someone on here stroking their ego. I saw someone trying to come to terms with what happened to her son. She was reaching out to see if there was anyone who understood and to share his experiences. And yes, I do empathize. I understand. And I know of basics and doolies (note the plural) who have been mistreated by upper level cadets. But then I am a parent, thus anything I say is suspect and just "third party" gossip.

Point 4: Implied "No one else comes on here talking of this type of thing."
People (parents, friends, family members) don't share specifics for various reasons
1) They understand what they are told is not for public consumption. It is private and they acknowledge the right of the cadet to speak out for themselves.
2) They understand they will be dismissed and attacked and not taken seriously. Why bother adding such negativity when already dealing with a painful situation?
3) They know what they think and feel doesn't matter.
4) They are concerned about retribution against their cadet or their friend's cadet etc. etc. etc. Parents frequently get warned off regarding sharing any opinion, thought or idea that isn't all "hurah."

Point 5: "Yet the only concern I see is that you make your point and convince this audience."
I did not see someone who was only concerned with making her point and convincing this audience. I saw someone sharing an experience. Perhaps letting others know they are not alone while searching for answer as to why and how. I don't need convincing that bullying has gone and can go on at the academy. I knew that long before her post. I always acknowledged it can happen. I just believe it is not common.

I hope that clears up some of the questions you asked from a mother, Fredamom, who is hurting because of the pain, disappointment and experience her son went through.

(NOTE: Lost track of who shared what on all this. My apologies to all the name and who said what mix up. Thanks for pointing that out Alext. Regardless, my points still stand, and I empathize with the mom who shared the experience of her son and of Fredasmom who shared what she heard. In this forum, sharing something that is negative always garners "interesting and pointed" feedback. Thick skin and the willingness to stand up regardless of "popular opinion" is required.)
 
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MombaBomba:

Excellent summary. Just one clarification. I think it was another parent that posted because of the experience of her son. FredasMom just shared some of her past experience to try to add another point of view and additional context. I, for one thought it valuable and relevant. It clearly touched some nerves.
 
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