Sway of Army ROTC on Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Harvard Admissions?

dadof2018grad said:
4 years ago, my DD applied to several universities. She placed her AROTC scholarship at Princeton as her #1 choice for regular decision. She placed her NROTC scholarship at Yale as her #1 choice early decision. She was admitted to both Princeton and Yale. She was rejected by Harvard, MIT, Penn and Duke where she had no ROTC scholarships placed. Thus, the question as to whether the AROTC has pull at Princeton is undoubtedly YES. Obviously the NROTC has big pull at Yale as well.

I would strongly advise you against attending a cross-town ROTC program as the programs require significant committment and hours even before the commute. Based on my observation over the last 4 years, there is significant attrition of ROTC students even when the program is on campus. I cannot imagine how much higher the attrition is for a crosstown commute. Princeton is the obvious choice to place your AROTC at since the program is on campus.

In my opinion, you are wasting your time placing an AROTC scholarship at the other universities you mentioned since they do not have the AROTC on campus. You also would have a much lower probability to ever complete the AROTC program at crosstown AROTC schools.
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This was our experience too.

My DD had a navy and a type I AF scholarship 1st round, October.

She was still leaning towards academies so no ED.

Her grades/ACt were average for Yale. But besides Civil Air Patrol and lots of college science classes no huge accolades.

All regular decision...

MIT rejected
Yale Cornell waitlisted
U Penn accepted

Carnegie mellon... attending.

In a year when avg acceptance was below 5%... this is super strong result.

It tells if she applies ED to Yale probable acceptance. All host schools.

UPenn hosted Navy only though. As she went AF she has to avoid cross town commute so rejected. Agree that this is almost always a deal breaker EXCEPT

CMUs AF is cross-town but to Pitt. 4 blocks away. So very doable and she's a happy sophomore now.
 
MA Homeschool Dad said:
This was our experience too.

My DD had a navy and a type I AF scholarship 1st round, October.

She was still leaning towards academies so no ED.

Her grades/ACt were average for Yale. But besides Civil Air Patrol and lots of college science classes no huge accolades.

All regular decision...

MIT rejected
Yale Cornell waitlisted
U Penn accepted

Carnegie mellon... attending.

In a year when avg acceptance was below 5%... this is super strong result.

It tells if she applies ED to Yale probable acceptance. All host schools.

UPenn hosted Navy only though. As she went AF she has to avoid cross town commute so rejected. Agree that this is almost always a deal breaker EXCEPT

CMUs AF is cross-town but to Pitt. 4 blocks away. So very doable and she's a happy sophomore now.
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I know this was from a while ago. I just wonder, with all regular decisions, did any school choice of ranking have impact on the acceptance here?
 
dberkeley said:
I know this was from a while ago. I just wonder, with all regular decisions, did any school choice of ranking have impact on the acceptance here?
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I'm curious too! I'm orginal poster -- my kid got her results 2 years ago. I will only emphasize , BESIDES being the cadet leader of Civil Air Patrol, which then led to the full ROTC scholarship offers (1st round, in October) -- my DD had stats that were "average" for MIT/Yale/Cornell/UPenn.

Of course, "average" for MIT means near perfect. But my understanding is that the vast majority of successful MIT/Ivy applicants have at least one AMAZING hook -- national science fair winner, on Olympic team, violin genius, SOMETHING that makes them 1 out of 1000, not "merely" 1 out of a hundred.

To get
1 No,
2 Waitlists, and a
Yes out of 4 "sub 4%" highly rejective schools tells me a great ROTC kid applying to an elite host school has a GREAT shot.

I have had push back from a couple college insiders! And I've also had some confirmations!

The bottom line is that highly rejective colleges do NOT WANT "great students", they have a ton of those. They're more like Noah's Arks -- they want 2 of every animal. The Olympian, the violinist, they're like the lion and the penguin. They have 100 "micropools" of applicants, if you're a violinist you are really only competing with the other violinists that are applying (assuming that school that year NEEDS a violinist! Maybe they're not "buying" violinists this year, it happens).

My strong belief is that ROTC is a micropool. I doubt a host school has a fixed quota each year. HOWEVER, they can't be host school for ROTC and not admit any ROTC kids, right? So, they have to have a # range, maybe between 7 and 12. If 100 ROTC kids apply and they want about 10 -- your chances just shot WAY up , as that's 10% and the general applicant pool is more like 3%. Tripled your chances.
 
MA Homeschool Dad said:
I'm curious too! I'm orginal poster -- my kid got her results 2 years ago. I will only emphasize , BESIDES being the cadet leader of Civil Air Patrol, which then led to the full ROTC scholarship offers (1st round, in October) -- my DD had stats that were "average" for MIT/Yale/Cornell/UPenn.

Of course, "average" for MIT means near perfect. But my understanding is that the vast majority of successful MIT/Ivy applicants have at least one AMAZING hook -- national science fair winner, on Olympic team, violin genius, SOMETHING that makes them 1 out of 1000, not "merely" 1 out of a hundred.

To get
1 No,
2 Waitlists, and a
Yes out of 4 "sub 4%" highly rejective schools tells me a great ROTC kid applying to an elite host school has a GREAT shot.

I have had push back from a couple college insiders! And I've also had some confirmations!

The bottom line is that highly rejective colleges do NOT WANT "great students", they have a ton of those. They're more like Noah's Arks -- they want 2 of every animal. The Olympian, the violinist, they're like the lion and the penguin. They have 100 "micropools" of applicants, if you're a violinist you are really only competing with the other violinists that are applying (assuming that school that year NEEDS a violinist! Maybe they're not "buying" violinists this year, it happens).

My strong belief is that ROTC is a micropool. I doubt a host school has a fixed quota each year. HOWEVER, they can't be host school for ROTC and not admit any ROTC kids, right? So, they have to have a # range, maybe between 7 and 12. If 100 ROTC kids apply and they want about 10 -- your chances just shot WAY up , as that's 10% and the general applicant pool is more like 3%. Tripled your chances.
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MY daughter got into MIT but was rejected by Harvard and Princeton. She was not an Olympian but had great grades, test scores, and outside activities (Senate, debate, cross country, soccer, CAP). She was also selected for Notre Dame's selective summer leadership program. I don't know if applicants need an amazing hook per se. I think they need a great background with a diversity of activities. More importantly though, they need to know how to write an essay that is expected by the MITs, Stanfords, Ivys, etc. They also need LORs that are amazing and writtern for the same category of colleges. The essays and LORs for a really good state school or the next tier of university aren'tt he same as the super selcective schools are expecting. To me, this is where most people go astray. We were fortunate to have contacts who alerted us to this and were able to help.
I always question the circumstances when someone complains "My kid had perfect scores and GPA if 6.0" because admission to these schools is so much more than that.
 
MA Homeschool Dad said:
I'm curious too! I'm orginal poster -- my kid got her results 2 years ago. I will only emphasize , BESIDES being the cadet leader of Civil Air Patrol, which then led to the full ROTC scholarship offers (1st round, in October) -- my DD had stats that were "average" for MIT/Yale/Cornell/UPenn.

Of course, "average" for MIT means near perfect. But my understanding is that the vast majority of successful MIT/Ivy applicants have at least one AMAZING hook -- national science fair winner, on Olympic team, violin genius, SOMETHING that makes them 1 out of 1000, not "merely" 1 out of a hundred.

To get
1 No,
2 Waitlists, and a
Yes out of 4 "sub 4%" highly rejective schools tells me a great ROTC kid applying to an elite host school has a GREAT shot.

I have had push back from a couple college insiders! And I've also had some confirmations!

The bottom line is that highly rejective colleges do NOT WANT "great students", they have a ton of those. They're more like Noah's Arks -- they want 2 of every animal. The Olympian, the violinist, they're like the lion and the penguin. They have 100 "micropools" of applicants, if you're a violinist you are really only competing with the other violinists that are applying (assuming that school that year NEEDS a violinist! Maybe they're not "buying" violinists this year, it happens).

My strong belief is that ROTC is a micropool. I doubt a host school has a fixed quota each year. HOWEVER, they can't be host school for ROTC and not admit any ROTC kids, right? So, they have to have a # range, maybe between 7 and 12. If 100 ROTC kids apply and they want about 10 -- your chances just shot WAY up , as that's 10% and the general applicant pool is more like 3%. Tripled your chances.
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Thank you for your inputs. Yet, my understanding is the scholarship status is not transparent to school admission unless the student mentions it in school application. DD is in the top 20 prep school and I believe she has a very good shoot at service academies (following her sibling). However, we feel ROTC might be a better path for her. she does not believe she is in the top tier of her class for those elite schools even though her school is regarded as "feeder school" for T20 colleges. I wonder if she selects single choice early action school, would that enhance her chance in any way (assume she gets scholarship in October board before Nov1)? For academies, I expect her to receive appointment by the end of year if medical cleared. Any thoughts?
 
dberkeley said:
Thank you for your inputs. Yet, my understanding is the scholarship status is not transparent to school admission unless the student mentions it in school application. DD is in the top 20 prep school and I believe she has a very good shoot at service academies (following her sibling). However, we feel ROTC might be a better path for her. she does not believe she is in the top tier of her class for those elite schools even though her school is regarded as "feeder school" for T20 colleges. I wonder if she selects single choice early action school, would that enhance her chance in any way (assume she gets scholarship in October board before Nov1)? For academies, I expect her to receive appointment by the end of year if medical cleared. Any thoughts?
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ROTC, universities, and academies all have completely separate admission criteria, styles, requirements, etc. Getting one of the three (getting scholarship, EA decision, or academy) does not necessary help you with any other. Doesn't hurt to bring it up, but it doesn't seem to make a huge difference to the other options. Early action might actually hurt chances at a academy since DD will be locked in to the EA school and might not release her if she gets an appointment months later. ROTC decision might not be known for some months also, so be careful in applying to a EA school of the ROTC scholarship has to be included in order to pay for that school.
 
Ihavenoidea said:
ROTC, universities, and academies all have completely separate admission criteria, styles, requirements, etc. Getting one of the three (getting scholarship, EA decision, or academy) does not necessary help you with any other. Doesn't hurt to bring it up, but it doesn't seem to make a huge difference to the other options. Early action might actually hurt chances at an academy since DD will be locked in to the EA school and might not release her if she gets an appointment months later. ROTC decision might not be known for some months also, so be careful in applying to a EA school of the ROTC scholarship has to be included in order to pay for that school.
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What do you mean by “the EA school…might not release her if she gets an appointment”? A kid who is accepted, and accepts, can still not attend if they change their mind. What am I missing?
 
Iwutke said:
What do you mean by “the EA school…might not release her if she gets an appointment”? A kid who is accepted, and accepts, can still not attend if they change their mind. What am I missing?
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I believe, some schools have single choice early decision, where it is similar to ED in that you can not apply another "private" schools. The difference is, it is not binding (from my reading) and you have until May to accept it. Another thing is, public schools are exempted (academies are in the category). Of course, these are very competitive schools (single digit acceptance) and very unlikely you would decline it.
 
Ihavenoidea said:
ROTC, universities, and academies all have completely separate admission criteria, styles, requirements, etc. Getting one of the three (getting scholarship, EA decision, or academy) does not necessary help you with any other. Doesn't hurt to bring it up, but it doesn't seem to make a huge difference to the other options. Early action might actually hurt chances at a academy since DD will be locked in to the EA school and might not release her if she gets an appointment months later. ROTC decision might not be known for some months also, so be careful in applying to a EA school of the ROTC scholarship has to be included in order to pay for that school.
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Thanks for your comments. Apologies, I was referring to single choice early decision schools where it is not binding but restrictive (one school only). It is a bit of different than straight out ED application, which is binding and if accepted, you have to attend for most part.
 
Service Academy acceptance is a valid reason for not attending Early Decision school. Early Action is not binding.

Winning a scholarship in one of the early boards can't hurt in the ED/EA process, but it might only help at school's with strong ROTC connections and a host not cross-town school. I believe it might help at Vanderbilt, Tulane, and Notre Dame, but the first two schools are much more selective than even 5 years ago, so one can never be sure how beneficial the scholarship might be.
 
dberkeley said:
For academies, I expect her to receive appointment by the end of year if medical cleared. Any thoughts?
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Don’t count on hearing by end of the year. The vast, vast majority of decisions are sent in March and April. Having the application, and even DODMERB, done early doesn’t mean you’ll get a decision early. Be sure to manage your expectations.
 
dberkeley said:
Thanks for your comments. Apologies, I was referring to single choice early decision schools where it is not binding but restrictive (one school only). It is a bit of different than straight out ED application, which is binding and if accepted, you have to attend for most part.
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ED can be helpful with selective schools because it demonstrates that the applicant really does want to attend that school and it is the #1 choice.
Regarding another comment about the school being aware of the ROTC scholarship, we had our kids call admissions to inform them of the scholarships and update their packages. Winning an ROTC scholarship is quite an achievement and deserves to be part of the application package.
 
BJD16 said:
Service Academy acceptance is a valid reason for not attending Early Decision school. Early Action is not binding.

Winning a scholarship in one of the early boards can't hurt in the ED/EA process, but it might only help at school's with strong ROTC connections and a host not cross-town school. I believe it might help at Vanderbilt, Tulane, and Notre Dame, but the first two schools are much more selective than even 5 years ago, so one can never be sure how beneficial the scholarship might be.
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Actually, that's not true. Service Academy may be a valid reason to back out of the agreement you signed, but a lot of schools don't seem to accept it. When I was working on my college list last year, I did research and contacted schools that had ED to ask about this specifically. Only one said that they would maybe let me out of the contract.

I understand that no college can make you go there, even with the agreement. My bigger concern would be if the ED school were to contact the academy I was accepted into, how would that academy view me backing out of the agreement I signed?
 
Thegirlinthefireplace said:
Actually, that's not true. Service Academy may be a valid reason to back out of the agreement you signed, but a lot of schools don't seem to accept it. When I was working on my college list last year, I did research and contacted schools that had ED to ask about this specifically. Only one said that they would maybe let me out of the contract.

I understand that no college can make you go there, even with the agreement. My bigger concern would be if the ED school were to contact the academy I was accepted into, how would that academy view me backing out of the agreement I signed?
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Good to know. Any school that doesn't let an ED applicant out of commitment doesn't support the military. I would not have an ethical problem if a teen declined ED for a Service Academy, as he or she is truly making a military commitment, and not just ROTC at another school.
 
BJD16 said:
Good to know. Any school that doesn't let an ED applicant out of commitment doesn't support the military. I would not have an ethical problem if a teen declined ED for a Service Academy, as he or she is truly making a military commitment, and not just ROTC at another school.
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An ED agreement is made between the school, the applicant, the parents and the high school. It's a reflection on more than one party, and should be discussed seriously. Most kids who apply ED who also have military aspirations are hoping for or already have an ROTC scholarship. So, they will be serving. At least for most people on this message board, the dilemma is a high performing student picking ED at an Ivy or Ivy+ school over a service academy with an ROTC scholarship.
 
On the early decision (ED) discussion, it is generally seen as very shady, if not downright unethical, to back out of an ED agreement after you've been offered admission to a college from the ED pool. They basically gave you an increased chance at admission and chose to admit you with the understanding that you will be attending, unlike some regular admitted students (they know and account for not all of these guys matriculating in the end). That particular university likely won't consider a future application of yours to any of its grad/professional schools down the line, no matter your accomplishments since high school. By the way, colleges and universities also talk to each other about stuff like this (they know if someone applies ED to more than one school)... Point is, I would really make sure that if you're applying ED to a school, you know it is definitely your top choice out of all schools, civilian colleges and service academies, otherwise, apply regular decision.
 
I believe ED versus academies issue has been rehashed here many times. In my opinion, ED school should be the school you really intend to go, meaning you have to forgo academies if accepted by academies. However, for single choice early action schools, again, acceptance is non-binding and you can apply any other non-binding schools. In reality, it works like ED but non-binding. It is definitely a better option!
 
unkown1961 said:
ED can be helpful with selective schools because it demonstrates that the applicant really does want to attend that school and it is the #1 choice.
Regarding another comment about the school being aware of the ROTC scholarship, we had our kids call admissions to inform them of the scholarships and update their packages. Winning an ROTC scholarship is quite an achievement and deserves to be part of the application package.
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Did it help for your kid to get into the said school?
 
dberkeley said:
I believe ED versus academies issue has been rehashed here many times. In my opinion, ED school should be the school you really intend to go, meaning you have to forgo academies if accepted by academies. However, for single choice early action schools, again, acceptance is non-binding and you can apply any other non-binding schools. In reality, it works like ED but non-binding. It is definitely a better option!
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Agreed. Harvard, for example, has moved to restrictive early action, allowing students to apply to any other publics and the SAs. They do not offer ED.
 
dberkeley said:
Did it help for your kid to get into the said school?
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I don't know which statement you are referring to. But I believe the EA helped with MIT (after she was accepted the then cadre commander called and said we will bump you up to a Type 1 if you accept the offer - hard not to turn down MIT and a Type 1).
As for reporting the scholarships, I think it helped. All the admissions people contacted were positive about adding it. It was better than not taking the action. :)
 
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