2nd try after 3 years?

[runner99]

Hey everyone! Here's a quick background of what has happened since the last time I applied during senior year...

I attended a community college during my first semester. I ran D1 jr. college cross country, began studying civil engineering, and began training at an AROTC program 30 minutes away. Second semester, I transferred to a 4-year university (not the host-program, but 15 minutes closer) and earned a 3 year scholarship at the first board I entered. When the scholarship began sophomore year, I was taking 18 credits, working at an internship 15 hours/week, working a part-time job (to pay for extra non-host-school expenses), and commuting twice a day for ROTC. It was too much to handle, so my grades and fitness declined. I was suspended from my scholarship for a semester, and worked my way through the same demanding schedule to earn it back. I am taking classes and working a full-time internship this summer. I will be a junior this fall, but I am still behind on a few classes.

I have always regretted not reapplying to any SA, especially USNA. My host-school does not understand the demands of an engineering degree (I could write a book about the disagreements I have had with my cadre). The host-school also prioritizes its own students for leadership positions, so I am afraid that I will not be prepared for Advance Camp and commissioning. Therefore, I am seriously considering applying for the SAs a shot one final time. Would it be a shot in the dark to apply during junior year of college? Will the issues that I had with grades be an automatic disqualifier or is it possible to justify it under certain circumstances? How would I go about applying without the help of ROTC or my high school?

 

[THParent]

There are significant demands on your time at a Service Academy, which are vastly different than college or college with ROTC. With that said, you would not have the internship or part-time job adding to your schedule. This would be very good. Could you do it? I don't have the slightest idea. If you want to try, then by all means you should.

The worst that can happen (along those lines) is that you don't get an Offer of Appointment and you continue on in ROTC. Or the worst that could happen (from a different point of view) is that you DO get an offer of appointment, you kiss those two years of college goodbye, and two years into your 18 to 24 credits per semester load at USNA, your friends from college are Ensigns and you have two more years before you commission. But when you do commission as an Ensign - your diploma will say USNA on it - and your ROTC friends from college will be LTJGs. Maybe that's a win-win for you.

My DS has a shipmate who went through three full years of college before he got into USNA. Even though he started from square one, he has absolutely landed where he wanted to be, all along.
It can be done, certainly.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

In all honesty, the 2-3 years gap has less meaning than what you did with it. A candidate that waits 2 years to reapply, but has a great record of performance at 4 year college and ROTC probably has a good shot. However, the record you describe (particularly your comment about disagreement with the cadre at your host unit) makes it look like a long shot at best.

If you are going to regret not reapplying for life ...go for it. 100% of those that don't try don't get in. That said, you need to focus on the positive reasons that you want to apply rather than paint the picture above.

 

[shock-n-awe]

Hey everyone! Here's a quick background of what has happened since the last time I applied during senior year...

I attended a community college during my first semester. I ran D1 jr. college cross country, began studying civil engineering, and began training at an AROTC program 30 minutes away. Second semester, I transferred to a 4-year university (not the host-program, but 15 minutes closer) and earned a 3 year scholarship at the first board I entered. When the scholarship began sophomore year, I was taking 18 credits, working at an internship 15 hours/week, working a part-time job (to pay for extra non-host-school expenses), and commuting twice a day for ROTC. It was too much to handle, so my grades and fitness declined. I was suspended from my scholarship for a semester, and worked my way through the same demanding schedule to earn it back. I am taking classes and working a full-time internship this summer. I will be a junior this fall, but I am still behind on a few classes.

I have always regretted not reapplying to any SA, especially USNA. My host-school does not understand the demands of an engineering degree (I could write a book about the disagreements I have had with my cadre). The host-school also prioritizes its own students for leadership positions, so I am afraid that I will not be prepared for Advance Camp and commissioning. Therefore, I am seriously considering applying for the SAs a shot one final time. Would it be a shot in the dark to apply during junior year of college? Will the issues that I had with grades be an automatic disqualifier or is it possible to justify it under certain circumstances? How would I go about applying without the help of ROTC or my high school?

Your schedule sounds busy enough, but not so much that you can use it as an excuse for poor grades. Time management is critical, and most successful SA applicants have had to deal with busy schedules juggling work, sports, jobs, EC’s, studying for ACT/SAT, dating, working out, homework, sleep, and start over again while maintaining great grades and difficult curriculums. To be successful at an SA, the same will hold true, except instead of a “job”, you will have other additional responsibilities and expectations while managing acceptable grades and tough academic load. ( DS at WP had 23 credits last year and the same this coming year as an ENG major).
You’ve listed some really good past accomplishments, and have shown potential especially earning your ROTC scholarship. The troubling part that you described is your countless disagreements with Cadre, and the excuses mentioned for you getting passed over for positions. Even if what you described about your Cadre were true, you are still responsible for yourself and your actions. The big Army also has people in command that you (if you get there) may disagree with, and they may even be wrong in their actions, but how you respond to that environment is up to you. In your current situation, I believe you will have an uphill battle trying to get to an SA without the support of your ROTC leadership. Not only will you not get a NOM from them, you won’t get a recommendation from them. This along with poor grades will likely not help your SA chances. If it’s your dream to attend an SA, chase your dream but fully understand your overall situation.
My suggestion for what it’s worth ......after self reflection and listing your goals on a piece of paper ie: attend SA, graduate college with ENG degree, commission in the Army, stay debt free as possible, etc...then look at the possible ways to accomplish them with priorities.
If commissioning, graduating and low college debt are indeed at the top of list. Sit down with your PMS and explain yourself and your goals making NO excuses. Ask them to help you create a successful path to accomplish that. Whether you believe it or not, they want you to succeed, and will do whatever they can to help anyone willing to do the work. You can stick with your scholarship and commission from where you are now. Just take out the uneccessry things consuming your time and keep a positive attitude!

 

[Boolean]

I wouldn't say its harder to get in without support from your Cadre. I'm switching from AFROTC this year and when I was applying, I talked to them and they said they were only really useful for applying to USAFA. The only thing they did for me was offer to proctor my CFA and I didn't even end up doing that with them.

 

[runner99]

In all honesty, the 2-3 years gap has less meaning than what you did with it. A candidate that waits 2 years to reapply, but has a great record of performance at 4 year college and ROTC probably has a good shot. However, the record you describe (particularly your comment about disagreement with the cadre at your host unit) makes it look like a long shot at best.

If you are going to regret not reapplying for life ...go for it. 100% of those that don't try don't get in. That said, you need to focus on the positive reasons that you want to apply rather than paint the picture above.

Your schedule sounds busy enough, but not so much that you can use it as an excuse for poor grades. Time management is critical, and most successful SA applicants have had to deal with busy schedules juggling work, sports, jobs, EC’s, studying for ACT/SAT, dating, working out, homework, sleep, and start over again while maintaining great grades and difficult curriculums. To be successful at an SA, the same will hold true, except instead of a “job”, you will have other additional responsibilities and expectations while managing acceptable grades and tough academic load. ( DS at WP had 23 credits last year and the same this coming year as an ENG major).
You’ve listed some really good past accomplishments, and have shown potential especially earning your ROTC scholarship. The troubling part that you described is your countless disagreements with Cadre, and the excuses mentioned for you getting passed over for positions. Even if what you described about your Cadre were true, you are still responsible for yourself and your actions. The big Army also has people in command that you (if you get there) may disagree with, and they may even be wrong in their actions, but how you respond to that environment is up to you. In your current situation, I believe you will have an uphill battle trying to get to an SA without the support of your ROTC leadership. Not only will you not get a NOM from them, you won’t get a recommendation from them. This along with poor grades will likely not help your SA chances. If it’s your dream to attend an SA, chase your dream but fully understand your overall situation.
My suggestion for what it’s worth ......after self reflection and listing your goals on a piece of paper ie: attend SA, graduate college with ENG degree, commission in the Army, stay debt free as possible, etc...then look at the possible ways to accomplish them with priorities.
If commissioning, graduating and low college debt are indeed at the top of list. Sit down with your PMS and explain yourself and your goals making NO excuses. Ask them to help you create a successful path to accomplish that. Whether you believe it or not, they want you to succeed, and will do whatever they can to help anyone willing to do the work. You can stick with your scholarship and commission from where you are now. Just take out the uneccessry things consuming your time and keep a positive attitude!

I was trying to keep my message short, but I realize that it sounds disrespectful the way that I phrased the part about the disagreements I have had with my cadre. The "disagreements" have been discussed have all been handled respectfully, but not to the outcome that they should have. I realize this is challenge that is inevitable in the military, but I would like to elaborate.

The most major disagreement that I have been discussing since joining the program is getting five years to complete my degree. The college of engineering requires 18 credits/semester (plus summer classes) to graduate in 4 years. When I add the AROTC coursework to this class-load, that puts me at over 21 credits per semester. Since I am a transfer student and have to replace a couple of engineering classes with ROTC classes each semester, I will still be a sophomore during my 5th semester of engineering school. If I were to have one or two more semesters to complete my degree, I wouldn't have to cram in my studying with other responsibilities. The AROTC contract states that engineering students automatically have the option to complete their degree in 10 semesters. However, my cadre has been forcing me to try to complete my degree in under 4 years, and put in extra work to appeal to a board to receive an extra semester in the meantime. This is unjustified and takes a lot more time from me. As I stated before, this disagreement and others like it have been handled disrespectfully, but if I am reading the contract more thoroughly, then I believe that discussions like this are taking time and energy that should be spent studying.

 

[THParent]

I was trying to keep my message short, but I realize that it sounds disrespectful the way that I phrased the part about the disagreements I have had with my cadre. The "disagreements" have been discussed have all been handled respectfully, but not to the outcome that they should have. I realize this is challenge that is inevitable in the military, but I would like to elaborate.

The most major disagreement that I have been discussing since joining the program is getting five years to complete my degree. The college of engineering requires 18 credits/semester (plus summer classes) to graduate in 4 years. When I add the AROTC coursework to this class-load, that puts me at over 21 credits per semester. Since I am a transfer student and have to replace a couple of engineering classes with ROTC classes each semester, I will still be a sophomore during my 5th semester of engineering school. If I were to have one or two more semesters to complete my degree, I wouldn't have to cram in my studying with other responsibilities. The AROTC contract states that engineering students automatically have the option to complete their degree in 10 semesters. However, my cadre has been forcing me to try to complete my degree in under 4 years, and put in extra work to appeal to a board to receive an extra semester in the meantime. This is unjustified and takes a lot more time from me. As I stated before, this disagreement and others like it have been handled disrespectfully, but if I am reading the contract more thoroughly, then I believe that discussions like this are taking time and energy that should be spent studying.

To be perfectly candid here, I don't think that The Naval Academy (or any service academy) is right for you if you think you've been disrespected by being asked to complete a 4-year program in 4 years, and you actually think that's their problem.

 

[NavyHoops]

I understand this is all over the internet so things do not always come across clear, but your explanation isn’t helping. It is riddled with excuses and bad rationalization. I hate to say it, but in the end, the military is a massive bureaucracy and you are a number. Their goal is to get you to the operating forces. Nearly every military order has a statement, ‘at the discretion of the CO.’ It’s good you have read your contract. Just because it authorizes up to 5 years, does not mean they are going to grant it. Some dets probably do. It sounds like they are asking you to put together a logical statement to go before a board to request it? If that is true, why haven’t you? That board, gathering data, preparing, looking at it from all sides, etc is as valuable to your development as anything else, maybe more. If you do not think sitting down and having a discussion about your future is worth your time, you are going to hate active duty. It is full of wasting time. Remember that when leading your first platoon. You are thinking of USNA, all those Mids graduate in 4 and generally take 18-23 credits a semester on top of military duties, standing ways, professional knowledge and sports. Many of the things like PE don’t even count toward credit hours. You spend an entire year of life with very little control over ‘your time.’ The next 3 have more freedom, but not a ton. I would recommend you have a heart to heart with yourself about your goals, approach, etc. It won’t get any easier.