Hazing severity

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Goblin324

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i am curious of what SMC has the most/worst hazing , i am lead believe the citadel is the most brutal , however any stories or sources would be much appreciated
 
All SMCs seem very sensitive on this issue. What occurs today is nothing like what used to happen ( the same is true for enlisted boot camps). One man's "hazing" is another's "tradition ". But based on what I have learned during my son's research into which SMC to attend is that hazing as it was once known no longer exists. Instances that have strayed into the area of what some might considered hazing have been dealt with forcefully by the SMC administrations.
 
DS' childhood chum just graduated Citadel and commissioned USMC. According to him this year's knobs didn't experience anything like his class or previous classes did. Current commandant is really changing things. Only time will tell if it is for the better.
 
nofodad said:
DS' childhood chum just graduated Citadel and commissioned USMC. According to him this year's knobs didn't experience anything like his class or previous classes did. Current commandant is really changing things. Only time will tell if it is for the better.
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Back in my day.. When the ships were made of wood and the men were made of steel.
Puhnnhleeze, every service academy class ever has said that about classes than follow them.
 
I understand. However there have been a number of public issues with the Citadel the past two years. Eleven cadets from my DS' friends company were dismissed from school as a result of the new commandant's approach to hazing . Btw the two classes that followed him were not effected, only this years knob class.
 
There is no way to compare the SMCs' hazing frequencies because none of them release aggregated figures. In a lot of discussions on these boards you'll also see that what one person calls hazing, another might call intensive training. There was also an interesting white paper on USNA that came out in the 1990s that claimed people who are not fully bought-into a system (think early plebes/knobs/rats/doolies/swabs, etc.) are more likely to perceive something as hazing early in their path vs. later.

All SAs and SMCs expressly prohibit hazing in their regulations. Does it happen anyway? Sure it does. Remember also that you hear about the sensational cases - the woman chained to a urinal, the rat with a pool of lit lighter fluid in his palm - because they are sensational. My sense is, the SAs have fully adopted the idea that adversity trains, but hazing (humiliation, amplification of the power difference for no purpose) does not. The SMCs are more complicated; they answer only partly to DoD, but also their alumni and donors, and tradition is a mighty tower to move. The SMCs also vary in how DoD personnel oversee aspects of training new rooks, rats, and knobs. Ergo, because mostly-inexperienced upperclassmen may be responsible for some aspects of training, they may, from time to time, overdo the training.

So that's a long way of saying, it depends a lot on a lot of different variables, very few of which anyone is attending to. There's no real (evidence-based) answer to your question.
 
Back in my day.. When the ships were made of wood and the men were made of steel.
Puhnnhleeze, every service academy class ever has said that about classes than follow them
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"Beyond "is pretty accurate with that one- at every Military College, every Academy and probably every service, it was alway "Tougher" in "The Old Corps" than anything that the class immediately behind you went thru:rolleyes:. In some cases it I suppose is true - certainly some of the random stupidities that were allowed to occur when I was a Rat at VMI in 1976 don't get inflicted on Rats of 2016- and thankfully so because they were pointless. It is a more professional place now than it was 40 years ago while still being pretty darn demanding physically and mentally.

I might have misunderstood the question, but I suspect that you aren't really asking about Hazing but rather that you are asking "how tough is the 4th class system" ? Hazing has legal connotations- and at all SMCs against the regulations and maybe against the law, so rest assured that all SMCs take Hazing seriously. That doesn't mean that incidents of true hazing don't occur, but they are not all that widespread IMHO and as you can see from the Commandant's actions at the Citadel- are dealt with severely when they come to light. So I will guess that you are really asking about how physically and mentally rigorous the 4th class system is?

It's hard to really rank or compare the relative rigor of different adversative systems, but in my guesstimation of the SMCs VMI and The Citadel are the most physical, in-your-face environments and VA Tech probably the least so. At VMI - trust me you will spend a fair amount of your rat year enduring some fairly high social, time and physical stresses - and from what I know of the Citadel , pretty much the same.
 
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+1 on Bruno. My son just finished his 4th class year at VMI. As for actual "hazing" I have not heard of any, but not sure that I would. I did not ask a lot of questions on details of the Ratline as that is between he and his Brother Rats. The Ratline is what binds them and really isn't my business. That said, I do know that it was vigorous physically, mentally and academically. He was exhausted all the time, sick 80% of the time and hungry all the time. But, he does not regret choosing VMI and would make the decision to attend there again. The Citadel is likely similar, but I cannot say for certain.
 
turtlerunnernc said:
+1 on Bruno. My son just finished his 4th class year at VMI. As for actual "hazing" I have not heard of any, but not sure that I would. I did not ask a lot of questions on details of the Ratline as that is between he and his Brother Rats. The Ratline is what binds them and really isn't my business. That said, I do know that it was vigorous physically, mentally and academically. He was exhausted all the time, sick 80% of the time and hungry all the time. But, he does not regret choosing VMI and would make the decision to attend there again. The Citadel is likely similar, but I cannot say for certain.
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And my daughter can't wait to get to VMI....she's always been kinda crazy haha!
 
turtlerunnernc said:
As for actual "hazing" I have not heard of any but not sure that I would.
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No way to answer this question..... Which SMC and hazing..

All due respect to some post above, it is getting easier from year to year, at least publicly. And face it, most youth are getting softer from year to year (probably not a popular statement but IMHO the truth) When you look at things like bracing or a knob haircut as hazing, and some do, the definition of hazing has gone overboard. Look at the he papers,The Citadel has been come down on very hard the last few years.

But then there is a group of hard core or should I say dedicated, that feel it is the rite they want to experience. They want the bond and agree to certain things others don't. It is a mutual understanding. All don't go that route or get to go that route because they will call it hazing. Catch my drift. As turtlerun said, that is between them and their brothers and sisters. But I agree it can get out of hand and it is a fine line...

My DS's Senior year I asked him how knob year was gong, His comment was, Might as well call it "cookie cutting class".... gotta love that comment ;) Of course, almost a whole company of Sophomores had been sent home that year and Cadets were scared to look at a knob sideways. And the sad thing is, the knobs knew it...

It definitely differs from school to school and from year to year. There are a few I know on this forum that could vouch for that...
 
My experience with The Citadel is that most stories about hazing are either grossly exaggerated or plain false. Does it happen, yes but clearly the exception not the rule. There are idiots in every group that take things too far and its happened everwhere including the FSAs.
 
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