New Student Indoctrination (Summer 2019)

[Tiger T]

DS said they had opportunity to talk together, after lights out, etc. They passed around a sheet of paper to keep in touch.

 

[Navyhopeful23]

Lots of good advice and observations here.

1.) I was surprised at the parental inputs on "no personal conversations", has this been confirmed by any candidate MDNs? Agree it seems shortsighted and counters the larger purpose. But, there are several points where parental inputs seem unreliable so would like to hear from a participant directly.

2.) Agree the attrition can be a feature, not a bug. But DI's are highly trained but there is a real learning curve (see Ricks, Making of the Corps), 1c mids not so much.

3.) Gave same middle of the pack advice. He did not need, keeps his own counsel.

4.) This is Type II fun... not much fun to do, lots of fun to talk about. (The fun to do/fun to talk about graphing.)

Hello. I recently graduated from NSI Cycle 1. I think KP1990 perfectly nailed what the experience was.

I like that everyone gets baseline training but when we got there, we were told that the next 3 weeks would require teamwork to survive, and then promptly getting chewed out every time we opened our mouths. If we didn’t have labeled camelbacks and nametapes on uniforms, I wouldn’t have learned the name of my rackmate until 2 weeks in. It was just very counterintuitive.

We whispered to each other during Lights Out but that would eat into our sleep which we would need to the next day so many just went to sleep immediately. It was a blessing to finally get to sit/lay down with no yelling so I was going to take advantage of every second of sleep.

The middle of the pack advice also is true. I was a JROTC kid that knew a lot already like how to shine shoes and boots, all the ranks, customs and courtesies, how to wear the uniform, etc. It was much better to just stay quiet and act like I knew nothing while being taught by the midshipmen. Once we had time to work things on our own, I would do it my own way and it would come out way better(I.e method of shining boots and shoes). I didn’t correct the midshipmen or try to be the loud one but I would do it my own way or if they turned a quick blind eye, I would scramble to tell others about how to do it without getting yelled at. Everyone that actually already knew things just kept quiet and did their thing. It was not advantageous to try and be loud and correct the midshipmen.

They weren’t too knowledgeable on things like drill, but again, I just stayed quiet, helped others when I could, and let the active duty staff correct the midshipmen.

Different companies had different personalities as midshipmen but I know one of them was pretty bad. Pretty much had dictators as midshipmen. The point about them putting us through things they never have gone through is very true. Not helpful that the MO mids weren’t even 1/C, they were all 2/C, since MOs have to go to OCS their 1/C summer. I know a mid that got reprimanded and sent home for hazing. It’ll just be the way that it is until the MOs that went through it this year go back in 2 years or 2/3 years(there were some NO 2/C mids as well) for Navy options.

Hope this helps.

 

[rholt]

My son is at NSI2 right now. It is my understanding that his college (University of Washington) is still having a week long Indoc prior to the start of school. Is it the case at other schools that the Indoc training period has been canceled (replaced by NSI?)?

 

[KP1990]

I would guess that most of the current training cadre have never been through anything close to this.

Uhhh... they went through the same thing with their own units when they went through freshman orientation. The length and academic topics are different but it's essentially the same (at least for DS's unit).

I also read from posts on the parents FB page that the kids were not allowed to interact with each other for 2 weeks. No personal conversations even during down time. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Again, normal operating procedure for a freshman orientation except the length of time. There is a method to their madness. I know one result, and I'm sure it's not the only reason they do this, is that when they can finally interact they bond like crazy.

Let me add though that the stress created through this type of environment was definitely a positive.

Have to agree with that.

I would respectfully disagree with your statement that all of these midshipmen instructors went through a similar program with their own programs as freshman. My DS was accepted to 3 schools and spoke at length with midshipmen at all of the schools. They all said their NSO was basically a joke. It was a week long, no head shaving, and nothing like what they are apparently seeing at NSI. One of my DS's friends said that his school's program was basically a weekend orientation and team building. I realize that schools like the Citadel, VMI, and the maritime colleges will have more robust and intensive programs. I'm also sure that colleges with very big units may also have had NSO programs more akin to NSI. However, not every school has this type of program and no one went through this particular program before. My DS's unit has 40-50 midshipmen total, and that's 3 schools combined.

My suggestion is that in the future, maybe they should run the NSI instructors through a training program first. I believe the indoc instructors at the service academies go through a train the trainer program before working with the plebes. Hearing that an instructor at session 1 was sent back to his/her unit for what amounts to "hazing" concerns me. Apparently in one company, they took all of the kids sheets and towels, threw them in the middle of the squad bay and told them to find their stuff. There was blood on some sheets from kids shaving. Kids were supposedly getting pink eye and ringworm. I dont know this first hand. I'm only going off what feedback parents are posting in the Facebook page.

I dont think being able to put up with 3 weeks of this is an indicator of who will make it through to the end. Some kids just refuse to quit once they start, but once they get back to the real world will decide that the Navy isnt for them. In those cases, I hope they speak to someone because the real Navy is much different than what they experienced at NSI.

Maybe I've just gone soft in my old age

 

[Torero_dad]

My son is at NSI2 right now. It is my understanding that his college (University of Washington) is still having a week-long Indoc prior to the start of school. Is it the case at other schools that the Indoc training period has been canceled (replaced by NSI?)?

I don't think so. The San Diego consortium is on. Everything shown to me indicated this is additional. The was presented to my DS as opptional but recommended. Additionally, there were budgetary constraints. NSO was not optional. It also looked like larger NSO versus NSI distribution lists.

 

[kinnem]

I would guess that most of the current training cadre have never been through anything close to this.

Uhhh... they went through the same thing with their own units when they went through freshman orientation. The length and academic topics are different but it's essentially the same (at least for DS's unit).

I also read from posts on the parents FB page that the kids were not allowed to interact with each other for 2 weeks. No personal conversations even during down time. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Again, normal operating procedure for a freshman orientation except the length of time. There is a method to their madness. I know one result, and I'm sure it's not the only reason they do this, is that when they can finally interact they bond like crazy.

Let me add though that the stress created through this type of environment was definitely a positive.

Have to agree with that.

I would respectfully disagree with your statement that all of these midshipmen instructors went through a similar program with their own programs as freshman. My DS was accepted to 3 schools and spoke at length with midshipmen at all of the schools. They all said their NSO was basically a joke. It was a week long, no head shaving, and nothing like what they are apparently seeing at NSI. One of my DS's friends said that his school's program was basically a weekend orientation and team building. I realize that schools like the Citadel, VMI, and the maritime colleges will have more robust and intensive programs. I'm also sure that colleges with very big units may also have had NSO programs more akin to NSI. However, not every school has this type of program and no one went through this particular program before. My DS's unit has 40-50 midshipmen total, and that's 3 schools combined.

My suggestion is that in the future, maybe they should run the NSI instructors through a training program first. I believe the indoc instructors at the service academies go through a train the trainer program before working with the plebes. Hearing that an instructor at session 1 was sent back to his/her unit for what amounts to "hazing" concerns me. Apparently in one company, they took all of the kids sheets and towels, threw them in the middle of the squad bay and told them to find their stuff. There was blood on some sheets from kids shaving. Kids were supposedly getting pink eye and ringworm. I dont know this first hand. I'm only going off what feedback parents are posting in the Facebook page.

I dont think being able to put up with 3 weeks of this is an indicator of who will make it through to the end. Some kids just refuse to quit once they start, but once they get back to the real world will decide that the Navy isnt for them. In those cases, I hope they speak to someone because the real Navy is much different than what they experienced at NSI.

Maybe I've just gone soft in my old age

Well I can't speak to all the programs but DS went through the head shaving, yelling, lack of sleep, firewatch, no speaking unless spoken to, quarters being "tossed", etc. Upperclass midshipmen assisted the several Marine DIs who were present.

I certainly don't disagree that midshipmen doing this should go through some training if only to make sure everyone is on the same page. The midshipmen should leave most of the yelling to the drill instructors who are far more experienced.

 

[JAGman]

Current Ensign. SMC graduate, so maybe I like getting yelled at more than others lol.

I wish I'd gotten to go to this program, I think it would have been a good experience. There's something about going through adversity like that you just can't learn through a normal experience. Talking to fellow JOs a lot of them never really did anything remotely like that for their ROTC Indoc so I'm glad this is happening. It will give the future NROTC alumni officers of the Fleet a shared experience. It's also, hopefully, (though I saw the comment about not talking) a good way to start networking early on.

 

[BarryD]

My son is at NSI2 right now. It is my understanding that his college (University of Washington) is still having a week long Indoc prior to the start of school. Is it the case at other schools that the Indoc training period has been canceled (replaced by NSI?)?

Negative.

 

[co2020fb]

My son is at NSI2 right now. It is my understanding that his college (University of Washington) is still having a week long Indoc prior to the start of school. Is it the case at other schools that the Indoc training period has been canceled (replaced by NSI?)?

My School is still having an NSO.

 

[rviad92o]

DS just arrived home from NSI. We think he is still decompressing a bit. One interesting thing he said last night was one of the midshipmen instructors stated that these candidates were lucky to have this opportunity, and that he wished he had had it as well. It does seem to me that he did bond with those in his platoon. Probably the most surprising change I’ve seen is he is certainly swearing like a sailor! He lost well over 10 lbs. His platoon were the last to eat and they were often out of food options. No question this experience has changed him, for the better despite how challenging and stressful it was.

My son just completed the first round of NSI. He was aware that several people left for various reasons but didn't know specifics. One of the things he was told was that the Navy is implementing NSI to weed people out. The Navy makes a huge investment in paying scholarships, and it's no strings the first year. So rather than pay the tuition and have DORs at the end of freshman year, he was under the impression the Navy is trying to mitigate that. As a taxpayer, I think it makes sense. ROTC and military service is not for everyone. The CAPT at my son's unit told him that the attrition from beginning of freshman year to graduation is about 40%. People leave for various reasons - health, behavioral, grades etc. There is no shame in leaving the program at NSI - and there's nothing wrong with the Navy making the program rigorous.

Whatever the reason, this has been going on in NROTC units for years and NSI didn't need to be implemented to achieve that. In 2011 DS's unit lost 33% during their one week freshman orientation. They lost another 33% prior to commissioning. All kinds of reasons for people to drop or be disenrolled. This is not easy.

Honestly I'm not a huge fan of NSI either. I feel like they should have at least tried to pair the Candidates by school. The NSO bonding experience is lost.

 

[rviad92o]

I was at our DD’s graduation from NSI and what a proud moment it was! Our DD said it was one of the hardest and humbling thing she’s ever done and has been sharing stories of her experiences with us since I picked her up this past Monday. Although it was hard, she was positive about it and overall learned so much and bonded with the other women cadets in her company. One of them will go to the same college as her but as far as the rest, they’re from all over the country. Because of technology, they have been able to keep in touch and have already talked about meeting up again at some point. Whether or not they get that chance to meet up again sooner or maybe later when they see each other in the fleet one day, they will always have their experience from NSI that will connect them. They may all be going to different colleges but they can still provide support to each other with our technology today-they are just a facetime away.

Our DD said they had some upperclass mids there to lead and also learn from NSI and bring back what they learned to their units so that in the future, they can have more of the upper class mids be a part of the training.

NSI gives the candidates an insight on what training, discipline and qualifications are expected of them and as mentioned, this may even result in them dropping out of NROTC before they start school as they figure out this may not be for them..

NSI is still a work in progress and they still have much to learn in how it should be run and make the necessary changes. My husband graduated from USNA and thinks it’s about time they had a program like this for NROTC.
He said they truly need to run this program at least 4 years to see the effects/benefits it had for this 1st year NSI group.

I don’t think this will take away anything from NSO. If anything, they will be more prepared for the challenges ahead. My DD’s s unit is till having NSO but it will only be about 3-4 days-not as comprehensive as the NSI program but they will still have the opportunity to bond.
My DD has joined this forum so that if anyone has any questions, she can give information from her own experience.

 

[justdoit19]

I was at our DD’s graduation from NSI and what a proud moment it was! Our DD said it was one of the hardest and humbling thing she’s ever done and has been sharing stories of her experiences with us since I picked her up this past Monday. Although it was hard, she was positive about it and overall learned so much and bonded with the other women cadets in her company. One of them will go to the same college as her but as far as the rest, they’re from all over the country. Because of technology, they have been able to keep in touch and have already talked about meeting up again at some point. Whether or not they get that chance to meet up again sooner or maybe later when they see each other in the fleet one day, they will always have their experience from NSI that will connect them. They may all be going to different colleges but they can still provide support to each other with our technology today-they are just a facetime away.

Our DD said they had some upperclass mids there to lead and also learn from NSI and bring back what they learned to their units so that in the future, they can have more of the upper class mids be a part of the training.

NSI gives the candidates an insight on what training, discipline and qualifications are expected of them and as mentioned, this may even result in them dropping out of NROTC before they start school as they figure out this may not be for them..

NSI is still a work in progress and they still have much to learn in how it should be run and make the necessary changes. My husband graduated from USNA and thinks it’s about time they had a program like this for NROTC.
He said they truly need to run this program at least 4 years to see the effects/benefits it had for this 1st year NSI group.

I don’t think this will take away anything from NSO. If anything, they will be more prepared for the challenges ahead. My DD’s s unit is till having NSO but it will only be about 3-4 days-not as comprehensive as the NSI program but they will still have the opportunity to bond.
My DD has joined this forum so that if anyone has any questions, she can give information from her own experience.

Congrats! It sounds like the program succeeded in so many areas with these takeaways from you DD. I have never attended obviously but like most things in life, perspective and attitude are paramount to coming out the other side a better person.

 

[learningNavymom]

And don't believe everything you read on the parents FB page. Keep in mind that much of it is hearsay and second- or third-hand info, with a dose of unsubstantiated rumor and alarmism -- amid a lot of wonderful and informative posts from parents obviously bursting with pride.

 

[VictoriaR]

We are in a bit of a panic. No one (out of many family and friends who analyzed all day/night) can find our daughter in the cycle 2 oath video. She called right before she turned her phone in. Extensively researched and had appropriate paperwork, physical etc. Any thoughts? I messaged the FB page coordinator/host and got the standard reply: Cannot disclose information, only if emergency.
Mom trying to stay calm over here!

 

[TwinMomTerri]

We are in a bit of a panic. No one (out of many family and friends who analyzed all day/night) can find our daughter in the cycle 2 oath video. She called right before she turned her phone in. Extensively researched and had appropriate paperwork, physical etc. Any thoughts? I messaged the FB page coordinator/host and got the standard reply: Cannot disclose information, only if emergency.
Mom trying to stay calm over here!

My son is back home after completing NSI Cycle 1 and even though we spotted him in the Oath video, there were many who didn’t find their child. Also, we only caught him one more time in the sets of daily pictures. I understand the panic — we adopted a “no news is good news” mindset. My son says a corpsman was with them at all times. If anything were amiss, you’d be notified.

 

[VictoriaR]

We are in a bit of a panic. No one (out of many family and friends who analyzed all day/night) can find our daughter in the cycle 2 oath video. She called right before she turned her phone in. Extensively researched and had appropriate paperwork, physical etc. Any thoughts? I messaged the FB page coordinator/host and got the standard reply: Cannot disclose information, only if emergency.
Mom trying to stay calm over here!

My son is back home after completing NSI Cycle 1 and even though we spotted him in the Oath video, there were many who didn’t find their child. Also, we only caught him one more time in the sets of daily pictures. I understand the panic — we adopted a “no news is good news” mindset. My son says a corpsman was with them at all times. If anything were amiss, you’d be notified.

Thanks so much! Only worried if she was able to participate, otherwise no pics needed and completely excited for her, she was pumped!

 

[njrotcmom1035]

I was at our DD’s graduation from NSI and what a proud moment it was! Our DD said it was one of the hardest and humbling thing she’s ever done and has been sharing stories of her experiences with us since I picked her up this past Monday. Although it was hard, she was positive about it and overall learned so much and bonded with the other women cadets in her company. One of them will go to the same college as her but as far as the rest, they’re from all over the country. Because of technology, they have been able to keep in touch and have already talked about meeting up again at some point. Whether or not they get that chance to meet up again sooner or maybe later when they see each other in the fleet one day, they will always have their experience from NSI that will connect them. They may all be going to different colleges but they can still provide support to each other with our technology today-they are just a facetime away.

Our DD said they had some upperclass mids there to lead and also learn from NSI and bring back what they learned to their units so that in the future, they can have more of the upper class mids be a part of the training.

NSI gives the candidates an insight on what training, discipline and qualifications are expected of them and as mentioned, this may even result in them dropping out of NROTC before they start school as they figure out this may not be for them..

NSI is still a work in progress and they still have much to learn in how it should be run and make the necessary changes. My husband graduated from USNA and thinks it’s about time they had a program like this for NROTC.
He said they truly need to run this program at least 4 years to see the effects/benefits it had for this 1st year NSI group.

I don’t think this will take away anything from NSO. If anything, they will be more prepared for the challenges ahead. My DD’s s unit is till having NSO but it will only be about 3-4 days-not as comprehensive as the NSI program but they will still have the opportunity to bond.
My DD has joined this forum so that if anyone has any questions, she can give information from her own experience.

Well said! My DS was at cycle 1 NSI and only has positive to say about it. Yes it was hard but if it was easy everyone would do it right? I like the idea that it is weeding out the kids early that decide it is not for them. Why waste more of the Navy's $ or the kids time.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

@VictoriaR I feel for you, and here goes - I'm going to respond as if you are my best friend or as if this was my child.

First, don't worry about the video - please know that, respectfully, the video quality was terrible. Osama B-L, Jimmy Hoffa, and 20 terrorists could have been in that video and the CIA would have missed them! Dark, lots of candidates not filmed. I wouldn't draw a conclusion based on not seeing her on that video, at all.

Second, I think the call before she turned her phone in means she reached the USO and checkin, and is OK. I take my DS's same call as that proof- he called as instructed while in queue to turn in his stuff at the USO. I think if your daughter did not check in at the USO or on-site, NSI and/ or your school would have contacted you urgently. If you can, I think you should sit tight.

If you can't sit tight, then you're going to stir a pot here and your daughter won't like it, but do what you have to do. I would call back whoever you called initially, explain your situation and only ask if all female expected students arrived or are accounted for on checkin =that's really all you need to know. Maybe they can tell you that without more details, to assuage your concern. they will know this fact.

If they tell you one or more female candidates didn't arrive or aren't accounted for, then FULL STOP - hit the call buttons - Call both the unit and the red cross and explain you just need a confirmation that your daughter is on-site since you've heard one or more female candidates are unaccounted for. I would stress you don't need her to be disturbed and don't need to speak with her, only a wellness confirmation and only that she arrived. Here are the details on how to reach the Red Cross. When Midshipmen family members experience an emergency, most often the death or serious illness of a family member, the Red Cross verifies the emergency information and sends a message to the Midshipmen participating in NSI. The NSI Leadership will then notify the Midshipmen of the emergency, and works directly with the Midshipmen regarding the authorization of emergency leave. To assist the Red Cross, you will be asked for:

-The service members name, rank, social security number and unit address.
Ship 09/NROTC
3415 Sailor Dr.
Great Lakes, IL 60088-3515
-The name of the person with the emergency and the nature of the situation.
-The name and contact information for the medical authority to contact regarding the status of the emergency.

You can file a request for an emergency message by calling 877-272-7337

Again, recommend you sit tight if you can, acknowledge the call you received which is the confirmation she made it, and please don't assume that not seeing on video means anything, but as parents I understand how un-nerving this all is. As a young person I would get annoyed when my parents were reactive like this, but as a parent, I totally understand. Sorry you are going through it - good luck and keep the board posted on how this all goes.

We are in a bit of a panic. No one (out of many family and friends who analyzed all day/night) can find our daughter in the cycle 2 oath video. She called right before she turned her phone in. Extensively researched and had appropriate paperwork, physical etc. Any thoughts? I messaged the FB page coordinator/host and got the standard reply: Cannot disclose information, only if emergency.
Mom trying to stay calm over here!

 

[NAVYCAPT93]

Let me add though that the stress created through this type of environment was definitely a positive. I realized that I had to learn how to work under pressure and that in the middle of the ocean, there is no fire department to fight your fires and there is no cavalry to come over the hill to save you. It's often up to you to handle it and the enlisted men and women under your command will look to you for guidance. So that being said, there are things about the program I love but I think it will need some tweaking and fine tuning as it moves forward.

Good luck NROTC Class of 2023. Semper Fortis.

I am assuming this is a fellow KP’er. I totally agree that these first couple of rounds will be challenging for those who have not run an Indoc style program. As someone still serving and having worked with some of the folks and NETC and NROTC the past couple of years - I will say that holding it at Great Lakes provides the beat backstop and training to the 1/c on how to do this - and they go out of their way to try to homogenize the approach/delivery. Just like we got to head to KP early - if we were going to be a DI/Pusher - which I was - and had two weeks of training by USMC and other upperclassmen - they are getting the same. With anything being run by midshipmen who are still “leadership trainees” there will be inconsistencies. Each year will get better.

I am also certain that there is a significant difference in the style and experience - for example - of a Mid from Texas A&M Corps vs. Ohio State or other non-SMC. That will be worked out as they perfect this program. And just think - those heading to SMCs have their own second Indoc and a whole Plebe-style year ahead of them!

Go Navy!

 

[5280mama]

My son is at NSI2 right now. It is my understanding that his college (University of Washington) is still having a week long Indoc prior to the start of school. Is it the case at other schools that the Indoc training period has been canceled (replaced by NSI?)?

University of Colorado is just doing a two-day/one-night orientation. Might be in part because move-in starts less than a week after NSI2 ends.