Service Selection

[Old Navy BGO]

But, I don't understand why Ensigns from USNA/NROTC are inherently better qualified for URL than those from OCS, and vice versa.

I would suspect that the rationale is largely historical -- USNA was established to provide a training program for Midshipman onboard ship well before it became N*T College. Restricted Line Officers were historically specialists in some field , ie. Medical/Dental, SeaBee's, Supply, Chaplain, etc. where the officer brings some underlying skill set into the Navy.

 

[8th Wing Refugee]

There certainly wasn't a limit back in our day of service selection -- I would expect that the Anchor Man in each class got the pick of remaining SWO billets and probably had some extras left over. That said, with Service Assignment, there may be more structure to the process -- but at the end of the day, there are probably still more SWO billets available than USNA Midshipman to take them .

I seem to recall that, at least in our day, the bottom tier went SWO to ships under construction.

 

[Capt MJ]

I'm torn. I understand the overwhelming need to produce URL officers and keeping a tight grip on that ratio. But, I don't understand why Ensigns from USNA/NROTC are inherently better qualified for URL than those from OCS, and vice versa.

Many URL come out of OCS. I was URL. If you are at Navy OCS, you know where you are going, community-wise, before you start. The majority of my classmates were going SWO, subs, SEAL, etc., with some Supply Corps, EDO, Intel, Crypto and PAO in far smaller numbers. Many of the ones going URL were prior enlisted who had obtained their college degrees using Tuition Assistance or other path. The Big Three URL communities (SWO, aviation, subs) are significantly larger than the other communities, so they will always be the larger part of any commissioning program.

The truly specialized go to ODS in Newport, the “professional” staff corps such as Med, JAG, etc.

I don’t believe it’s a matter of “better qualified” for URL. It’s that URL officers are expected to be able to command at sea and ashore - unrestricted - in fields related to their officer designator (aviator commanding a squadron) or command an unrelated shore command. USNA is geared to develop officers capable of a broad sweep of command responsibilities, including the very top leadership positions of the Navy. RL and Staff Corps command within their communities - are “restricted” to that - such as an IW type commanding a Comm station or security group. RL or Staff Corps will never be in command at sea or of a Battle Group at sea. They are specialized, primarily staying within their communities, precisely because they are so deeply skilled in their area; that is the power and beauty of their communities.

All the officer communities work together to lead the Navy in a mutually supportive, synergistic way. USNA and NROTC are designed to deliver URL officers to the Fleet. OCS is designed to allow the Navy to cherry pick who it needs to make up the numbers for various communities each FY and to meet other recruiting goals, but URL will dominate every OCS class output as well.

 

[ASL]

I'm torn. I understand the overwhelming need to produce URL officers and keeping a tight grip on that ratio. But, I don't understand why Ensigns from USNA/NROTC are inherently better qualified for URL than those from OCS, and vice versa.

I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. In general, USNA and NROTC exist to create URL officers. Why do they exist to create IRL officers? That I don’t know. It’s a subject of much discussion. Doesn’t mean they’re necessarily better at it (there are a lot of statistics out there about retention differences, but it’s questionable how useful retention is as a metric for performance given the extent to which populations may be self-selecting and there have been huge variations in how USNA/NROTC/OCS are structured to provide manpower across the decades—NROTC used to be much more focused on creating reserve officers, rather than regular Navy, for instance).

Anyway, part of my job at USNA involved *trying* to read the tea leaves if there were major performance differences between USNA/NROTC/OCS, but the only thing I can say definitively is if there are differences, they’re not huge, and to the extent data is necessary to really distinguish, it doesn’t really exist in quantity with sufficient fidelity to really tell.

All that to say, don’t mistake the reality that USNA and NROTC are designed to commission URL to max extent, and OCS is intended to plug gaps (among other things) for an indictment of OCS as a commissioning source. It’s just a reality that if the Navy pays for four years of college up front, you can expect it’s going to be very insistent that those people go where it wants them to go. For whatever reason, for USNA and NROTC, that’s URL. If, after USNA and NROTC have accounted for each graduate, there is still room left for OCS to get a few quotas too, great. If not… what do you expect to happen?

To be clear, I personally think the Navy *should* open up more RL slots to USNA and NROTC. I am *not* personally convinced there needs to be that URL-centric focus. In fact, as a former SWO myself, I think the SWO community in particular would benefit if fewer people were forced to be SWOs because they aren’t qualified to fly and/or don’t have the grades to do subs. The fewer people who end up in jobs they don’t want the better for all. To achieve that, I think it makes sense to let USNA and NROTC have RL quotas even for those PQ for URL. And then OCS can plug the gaps as needed with genuine volunteers. And that would hardly be unprecedented in the broader military. USMA and ROTC, for example, don’t just force everyone to go combat arms. Hell, even the USMC grads from USNA and NROTC have the chance to compete for things like intel and logistics related fields as part of the ordinary mix coming out of TBS. So I really don’t see why Navy grads coming out of USNA and NROTC must be pigeonholed to URL.

But that’s just my opinion.

 

[justme]

I've never heard of a "limit" for SWO. That doesn't mean there isn't one. I have never heard of one. I have never heard a story like, "I wanted SWO but all the slots were taken."

There are some communities that have "limits." EOD, SEALS & MedCorps seem to be examples. The Navy is not going to force anybody into any of those communities, but they will limit how many go into those communities.

Some have "quotas." Subs seems to be an example. I don't think they would have much of a "limit." I'll bet they'd be very flexible on that. If the quota was 135 and they got 140 midshipmen who were qualified and preferenced it - I'm guessing they'd take all 140. But they won't settle for 130. I doubt they'd settle for 134.

Some have "limits & quotas." I'm not sure what communities would fit into this category - maybe Marine Ground. They might have a target bracket - something like; no less than xx but no more than yy.

And some have neither. I'm thinking SWO might be in this category. Not sure.

I would imagine any 'limit' for SWOs is more of a math equation as you imply. Since there are mins for some of the others, the number for SWO is capped at total commissioning URL grads - sum of others' mins. Then subtract the folks who are only qualified for SWO, and the MIDNs with other options are competing for fairly limited number of SWO slots on average. (My guess is around 150)

 

[justme]

I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. In general, USNA and NROTC exist to create URL officers. Why do they exist to create IRL officers? That I don’t know. It’s a subject of much discussion. Doesn’t mean they’re necessarily better at it (there are a lot of statistics out there about retention differences, but it’s questionable how useful retention is as a metric for performance given the extent to which populations may be self-selecting and there have been huge variations in how USNA/NROTC/OCS are structured to provide manpower across the decades—NROTC used to be much more focused on creating reserve officers, rather than regular Navy, for instance).

Anyway, part of my job at USNA involved *trying* to read the tea leaves if there were major performance differences between USNA/NROTC/OCS, but the only thing I can say definitively is if there are differences, they’re not huge, and to the extent data is necessary to really distinguish, it doesn’t really exist in quantity with sufficient fidelity to really tell.

All that to say, don’t mistake the reality that USNA and NROTC are designed to commission URL to max extent, and OCS is intended to plug gaps (among other things) for an indictment of OCS as a commissioning source. It’s just a reality that if the Navy pays for four years of college up front, you can expect it’s going to be very insistent that those people go where it wants them to go. For whatever reason, for USNA and NROTC, that’s URL. If, after USNA and NROTC have accounted for each graduate, there is still room left for OCS to get a few quotas too, great. If not… what do you expect to happen?

To be clear, I personally think the Navy *should* open up more RL slots to USNA and NROTC. I am *not* personally convinced there needs to be that URL-centric focus. In fact, as a former SWO myself, I think the SWO community in particular would benefit if fewer people were forced to be SWOs because they aren’t qualified to fly and/or don’t have the grades to do subs. The fewer people who end up in jobs they don’t want the better for all. To achieve that, I think it makes sense to let USNA and NROTC have RL quotas even for those PQ for URL. And then OCS can plug the gaps as needed with genuine volunteers. And that would hardly be unprecedented in the broader military. USMA and ROTC, for example, don’t just force everyone to go combat arms. Hell, even the USMC grads from USNA and NROTC have the chance to compete for things like intel and logistics related fields as part of the ordinary mix coming out of TBS. So I really don’t see why Navy grads coming out of USNA and NROTC must be pigeonholed to URL.

But that’s just my opinion.

I dont necessarily believe they are better/lesser qualified. I was cynically questioning the rationale. I agree that if USNA fulfills 30% of X, Y, or Z slots, then they should be able to fill 30% of RL slots as well. then, have OCS fill the URL shortages caused by it.

 

[Usnavy2019]

I dont necessarily believe they are better/lesser qualified. I was cynically questioning the rationale. I agree that if USNA fulfills 30% of X, Y, or Z slots, then they should be able to fill 30% of RL slots as well. then, have OCS fill the URL shortages caused by it.

I think a big reason why USNA and NROTC produces URL to max extent possible is that it is a constant output. You are getting ~2000 (I don't know the true NROTC numbers) URL trainees a year. OCS is most likely there to fill the gaps since it is a voluntary program. In today's recruiting environment, not a lot of people are considering the military as an option and the vast majority of young people are unqualified for service. If the Navy always relies on OCS to fill 33%, then the current URL shortages could be further exacerbated. People would either not accept a spot at OCS or take a spot begrudgingly if they get a designator they don't want. That either leaves us with a manning shortage or shifting the problem of unhappy officers from USNA/NROTC to OCS.

 

[noco]

Sooo..... the service selection bonus hit the mid pay. I know I have never received a $15K bonus in my life. Great welcome to NUKE SWO community for my DS!

 

[MidCakePa]

Sooo..... the service selection bonus hit the mid pay. I know I have never received a $15K bonus in my life.

When DD briefly entertained the idea of going subs, she mentioned the sign-on bonus as an important consideration. Alas, she ended up USMC, where there’s no such bonus. She did get to throw grenades last month at TBS, though.

 

[justdoit19]

Sooo..... the service selection bonus hit the mid pay. I know I have never received a $15K bonus in my life. Great welcome to NUKE SWO community for my DS!

Do I recall that there is a nice resigning bonus, too??

 

[Memphis9489]

Sooo..... the service selection bonus hit the mid pay. I know I have never received a $15K bonus in my life. Great welcome to NUKE SWO community for my DS!

There's always some self-serving reason why the military gives out signing bonuses. Sometimes it's because it is difficult to attract people into a community that is somewhat unpopular. The bonus is the "carrot." Sometimes it's because they need to attract quality people into communities that require very special skills. For instance, I had twin sons go into the Medical Corps out of USNA. They went into the HPSP program - which means they could attend any civilian medical school to which they got accepted. They each got a $20,000 signing bonus - which is actually kind of silly because my sons had mandatory service to the Navy one way or the other. What was the Navy "enticing" them to do? The HPSP program is mostly about getting high-quality college graduates (from civilian undergraduate institutions) to commit themselves to the Navy and, in return, the Navy gives them a signing bonus plus will pay for their medical school tuition, books, equipment and provide a monthly stipend.

Just as that seemed silly (wasteful) to me, I think the same about the nuke signing bonus. Why would a Naval Academy graduate have to be "enticed" to enter a community that they probably want to go into anyway? I know that was the case with my sons. Yet, it's not uncommon for the Naval Academy to have difficulties meeting its quota for those who even want to go into nuke SWO/submarines. I often wonder what would happen if the Navy did away with the nuke signing bonus and how that might exacerbate a problem that occurs quite often - not enough qualified midshipmen preferencing the nuke community.

 

[IronmanDaremo]

My son, with his constantly evolving thought process, threw out now he wants SNA - 1st choice, SNFO - 2nd choice, SWO Nuke - 3rd choice. I did a double take in the car and said, "Where the hell did that come from?!" Didn't think he was leaning at all toward nuke stuff. I though he was just going to say SWO.

 

[Skipper07]

My son, with his constantly evolving thought process, threw out now he wants SNA - 1st choice, SNFO - 2nd choice, SWO Nuke - 3rd choice. I did a double take in the car and said, "Where the hell did that come from?!" Didn't think he was leaning at all toward nuke stuff. I though he was just going to say SWO.

“If you’re not going to fly you might as well get a few extra $$ for your SWO time” said many a pilot hopeful who put Nuke SWO third.

 

[IronmanDaremo]

His LT advisor from his NROTC unit from last year was a SWO Nuke. Might have been part of the influence.