Service Selection

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ProudDad2022

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How often do the mids get dropped to their 3rd choice (or worse) in service selection? I'm hoping it doesn't happen very often.
 
ProudDad2022 said:
How often do the mids get dropped to their 3rd choice (or worse) in service selection? I'm hoping it doesn't happen very often.
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Usually, upwards of 90% get their first or second choice. So it happens every year, but it isn't terribly common. Good grades, good PRT scores, good Conduct/Honor records, and people skills (being a good person and networking with officers of your desired community) is the secret sauce (of the things one can control) to getting what you want.
 
Agree with @Usnavy2019 that, while the needs of the Navy and Marines will always prevail, much of this is in the mids’ hands. So we’ll, do good, and you’ll be in the 90%-ish that get their 1st or 2nd choice.

Also heed the advice about networking — getting to know the SELs and officers in your desired warfare community, picking their brains, and making clear your desire to join them. It’s a two-way selection, after all, and the more that the deciders and influencers know you, the better.

This is particularly true if you’re leaning USMC. It’s a very small branch and they’re very particular about who they want joining them.
 
The nice part is when the Navy helps you realize your #3 choice was actually your #1 choice all along, and you just didn't know what you *really* wanted. You're welcome.

It's not service selection. It's service assignment. You do your best, and get assigned a community. If it's not what you wanted, don't be upset about the commitment you have made. If we ballpark 90% will get 1st choice, then this will happen to a not insignificant number of people.

It's not bad: 1. You may not actually have known what you really wanted as a MIDN (i.e. as much as any given MIDN 1/C would like to think they know a lot about the Navy, they don't), and 2. you may grow to like your assigned community after the initial disappointment.

There is no worse officer than the ENS that mopes around telling everyone how they should've been a pilot or SEAL or whatever if it weren't for the SARB process or <xyz> draft, and can't wait for the first opportunity to get out of this worthless community that everyone else is in. The number of new officers I have seen who carry this kind of "woe-is-me" attitude is a non-zero number, and I find that very disappointing.
 
Could someone please explain in detail the differences in the type of SWO jobs? I looked up the following on the USNA website, but there are many acronyms this civilian mom doesn't follow. My DS is going to a Nuke SWO dinner tonight and I am curious.

www.usna.edu

Surface Warfare Officer - Nuclear

SWO - Nuclear page for Surface Warfare at USNA.edu. Updated Wed Jan 08 10:32:41 EST 2025.
www.usna.edu
 
Neunsis makes an important point. When you go to any SA, you have to be prepared to go into any field for which you are qualified. Obviously, all SAs want (and try to do their best) to ensure that newly commissioned ensigns and 2nd LTs are happy in their career field. BUT, needs of the military always come first. If the USN needs sub officers or the Army needs artillery . . . they will eventually "assign," "draft," -- whatever you want to call it -- people to fill those quotas. And, it's not always the folks at the bottom of the class who are "voluntold" to go into a field they hadn't chosen.

The best thing you can do is not to fixate on a single career path. It's fine to have a first choice, but be open to a second or even a third. There are lots of great communities in every service. Doing well academically generally helps. Moping if you don't get your first choice generally doesn't help. If you give 100% to whatever community you find yourself in, you might find along the way that it really is the right community for you.
 
Usnavy2019 said:
Usually, upwards of 90% get their first or second choice. So it happens every year, but it isn't terribly common. Good grades, good PRT scores, good Conduct/Honor records, and people skills
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Good point.. I would be curious -- if you took the top half of the class (by OOM, not just grades), what percentage get their first choice ?
Despite the "service assignment" process (instead of the old Service "selection" where we picked on OOM, I would expect those that do well are generally rewarded with their preference.
 
noco said:
Could someone please explain in detail the differences in the type of SWO jobs? I looked up the following on the USNA website, but there are many acronyms this civilian mom doesn't follow. My DS is going to a Nuke SWO dinner tonight and I am curious.

www.usna.edu

Surface Warfare Officer - Nuclear

SWO - Nuclear page for Surface Warfare at USNA.edu. Updated Wed Jan 08 10:32:41 EST 2025.
www.usna.edu
Click to expand...
Not sure the specifics of what you want to know here. The actual jobs will vary as multiple officers report aboard and get assigned
to specific billets as Division Officers. when they go to their first nuclear ship, one might be in charge of the folks who maintain the
Main Engines while their peer has the ship's Electricians and Electrical Plant while another has the Reactor Controls and water chemistry
(lab technicians) people. At the same time, each of the three has to qualify and stand watch in the Engineering Plant.
When on their non-nuclear ship tour, they might get any SWO Div O job although less likely to be in the Eng Department so they are
more likely to have folks doing Electronics, Weapons or Operations type equipment/duties while the Div O has to qualify and stand watches
on the Bridge or CIC culminating in the Officer of the Deck and Surface Warfare Officers qualifications.

Detailed pieces of Admin flow with the specific Division officer job such as Ammunition storage and management for a weapons DivO
while the Deck Division Officer does a lot more about preservation and managing the small boats.
 
OldRetSWO said:
Not sure the specifics of what you want to know here. The actual jobs will vary as multiple officers report aboard and get assigned
to specific billets as Division Officers. when they go to their first nuclear ship, one might be in charge of the folks who maintain the
Main Engines while their peer has the ship's Electricians and Electrical Plant while another has the Reactor Controls and water chemistry
(lab technicians) people. At the same time, each of the three has to qualify and stand watch in the Engineering Plant.
When on their non-nuclear ship tour, they might get any SWO Div O job although less likely to be in the Eng Department so they are
more likely to have folks doing Electronics, Weapons or Operations type equipment/duties while the Div O has to qualify and stand watches
on the Bridge or CIC culminating in the Officer of the Deck and Surface Warfare Officers qualifications.

Detailed pieces of Admin flow with the specific Division officer job such as Ammunition storage and management for a weapons DivO
while the Deck Division Officer does a lot more about preservation and managing the s
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Thank you for your response. My DS is planning on putting SWO down as his first choice. (He has heard the rumor mill that you can only put one type of SWO this year for service selection.) I was just curious about the differences, and what differences it made in your career. I am trying to just listen and not in any way influence any choices, so I am not trying to ask him many questions....
 
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I know there have been some recent challenges in attracting SWO nukes. [As an aside, community "popularity" varies; a few years ago, it was tough to attract USN NFOs.] I know that in recent years they have approached some of those who chose conventional SWOs and encouraged (but not forced) them to choose the nuke option. This rumored new approach MAY be the Navy's way of getting to make the decision whether someone goes nuke SWO or conventional SWO. However, the foregoing is only a GUESS.

I will say that nuke SWOs may have some advantages when it comes to nuke school. At a recent graduation, in 2 of 4 officer classes, nuke SWOs (Lieutenants) stood at the top of their class. Could just be coincidence (or that they're really smart) or maybe some time on a ship before nuke school is an advantage.
 
I think USNA gets it right mostly. The Office of Officer Accessions and Talent Optimization is there to make sure the best qualified MIDN are sent to each community. The different warfare communities are looking for different "talents." Subs and Nuke SWO look at academic performance heavily since Power School and the requisite knowledge to run a reactor is are both very technical. The Marine Corps on the other hand cares a lot more about fitness and performance under stress. High OOM people tend to get what they want since they are usually hitting whatever talent wickets their chosen community has.

I want to foot stomp the people skills and networking piece. Communities want to select people they know and who have demonstrated an interest in doing what they do. Communities usually have mentors in each battalion and/or company, so they can provide a link. Some communities require interviews, so an already established relationship makes the interview a formality instead of the interviewer having to consider your future with the community. I want to specifically plug talking to senior officers. Again, each community has a senior representative who is usually an O-6. Batt Os and professors all have had pretty cool/long careers and are a wealth of knowledge. They are all there for the mids and talking about their operational glory days is a welcomed retreat from trackers and Dant staff/department meetings. A simple introduction by means of email or in-person is all it takes to establish a relationship. Most senior officers either serve on the selection boards themselves or talk regularly to those who do. If you have some skeletons in the closet or maybe just not as strong as a record as some of the higher OOM players, then a good reputation with the right people can make your selection easier. Can you not talk to anyone and get what you want? Sure. It happens a lot since everyone needs a home come graduation. Service Assignment is a buyer's market, though. The Navy and the Marines are looking for the best people. Talking to the right people helps your appraisal. Nobody is looking to purposely not select someone. However, someone with a decent record and a good reputation is a whole lot easier to select than someone who has a mediocre record and is an unknown quantity (no interactions or participation in community oriented events).

Nobody cares more about your future than you. I have never regretted spending some precious free time learning about Naval Aviation (in my case) or the Navy in general. Outside USNA, professional development is your responsibility outside of formal schoolhouses or syllabi. Nobody will sit you down and tell you what different things on a FITREP mean, how promotion works (and the required wickets), or even how to wear your uniform properly. Initiative is expected as an officer.
 
noco said:
Could someone please explain in detail the differences in the type of SWO jobs? I looked up the following on the USNA website, but there are many acronyms this civilian mom doesn't follow. My DS is going to a Nuke SWO dinner tonight and I am curious.

www.usna.edu

Surface Warfare Officer - Nuclear

SWO - Nuclear page for Surface Warfare at USNA.edu. Updated Wed Jan 08 10:32:41 EST 2025.
www.usna.edu
Click to expand...
Translating that graphic directly:

Expected career progression out to 7.5 years of commissioned service (YCS) for a nuke SWO:

6 mos: Basic Division Officer Course (initial training)
6 mos-2 years (18 month tour): 1st DIVO tour on a conventional ship, SWO qualification is the priority. Nuke SWOs generally don't get assigned conventional engineering jobs (unsure if that's black-and-white rule or just preference).
2-3 years: Naval Nuclear Power Training Command/Nuclear Power Training Unit: initial nuclear training and "Prototype."
3-5.5 years (28-ish month tour): 2nd DIVO tour on an aircraft carrier. Nuclear qualification is the priority (i.e. no combat direction center or deck qualifications), Nuke SWOs will be engineering division officers. Prospective Nuclear Engineering Officer (PNEO) course and assessment occurs here, and is the legendary filter for all nukes.
5.5-7.5-ish years: Shore duty, Naval Postgraduate School, Civilian Graduate Education, SECNAV Tours with Industry. Latter three are "special programs" that require some degree of screening. Shore duty varies, but can include jobs like fleet/major command staff, waterfront support, duty at training commands (i.e. USNA, NNPTC, etc).
7.5-ish years onward: Department Head School and Department Head tours. Not depicted, but Nuke SWOs will do one conventional DH tour on a smaller ship (e.g. destroyer, cruiser, amphib), then a Principal Assistant tour in the engineering department of a carrier (similar kind of position as a Department Head for the small ships). Similar to the tradeoff between conventional/nuke for the DIVO tours.

Department head screening is required for some of the more desirable shore duty billets and to continue career progression past the post-DIVO shore duty. There are three opportunities to screen; those who fail to screen will for the most part be separated.

WTI is Warfare Tactics Instructor. https://cimsec.org/warfare-tactics-instructor-unique-opportunity-junior-officers/
CIP is Career Intermission Program. https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Career-Management/Reserve-Personnel-Mgmt/IRR/Career-Intermission/

I interpret the last line to imply that a top performing nuke SWO could cut short some tour lengths (i.e. 1st DIVO could be cut short at 12 mos as soon as the SWO pin is attained) and therefore have additional time to pursue other SWO programs while still meeting nuke requirements (e.g. WTI + WTI Production Tour, fellowships).
 
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nuensis said:
Translating that graphic directly:

Expected career progression out to 7.5 years of commissioned service (YCS) for a nuke SWO:

6 mos: Basic Division Officer Course (initial training)
6 mos-2 years (18 month tour): 1st DIVO tour on a conventional ship, SWO qualification is the priority. Nuke SWOs generally don't get assigned conventional engineering jobs (unsure if that's black-and-white rule or just preference).
2-3 years: Naval Nuclear Power Training Command/Nuclear Power Training Unit: initial nuclear training and "Prototype."
3-5.5 years (28-ish month tour): 2nd DIVO tour on an aircraft carrier. Nuclear qualification is the priority (i.e. no combat direction center or deck qualifications), Nuke SWOs will be engineering division officers. Prospective Nuclear Engineering Officer (PNEO) course and assessment occurs here, and is the legendary filter for all nukes.
5.5-7.5-ish years: Shore duty, Naval Postgraduate School, Civilian Graduate Education, SECNAV Tours with Industry. Latter three are "special programs" that require some degree of screening. Shore duty varies, but can include jobs like fleet/major command staff, waterfront support, duty at training commands (i.e. USNA, NNPTC, etc).
7.5-ish years onward: Department Head School and Department Head tours. Not depicted, but Nuke SWOs will do one conventional DH tour on a smaller ship (e.g. destroyer, cruiser, amphib), then a Principal Assistant tour in the engineering department of a carrier (similar kind of position as a Department Head for the small ships). Similar to the tradeoff between conventional/nuke for the DIVO tours.

Department head screening is required for some of the more desirable shore duty billets and to continue career progression past the post-DIVO shore duty. There are three opportunities to screen; those who fail to screen will for the most part be separated.

WTI is Warfare Tactics Instructor. https://cimsec.org/warfare-tactics-instructor-unique-opportunity-junior-officers/
CIP is Career Intermission Program. https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Career-Management/Reserve-Personnel-Mgmt/IRR/Career-Intermission/

I interpret the last line to imply that a top performing nuke SWO could cut short some tour lengths (i.e. 1st DIVO could be cut short at 12 mos as soon as the SWO pin is attained) and therefore have additional time to pursue other SWO programs while still meeting nuke requirements (e.g. WTI + WTI Production Tour, fellowships).
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Someone add this to the stickies for career path for SWO. Great breakdown.
 
nuensis said:
Translating that graphic directly:

Expected career progression out to 7.5 years of commissioned service (YCS) for a nuke SWO:
Click to expand...
I noticed all the career progression maps for the SWO options all show 7.5 YCS. Commitment post commissioning from USNA is 5 years correct?
 
LT360 said:
I noticed all the career progression maps for the SWO options all show 7.5 YCS. Commitment post commissioning from USNA is 5 years correct?
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Yes. The commitment really has nothing to do with the career path. Some folks move out and others will move up. The notional 7.5 yr point
which can differ a little based on individual circumstances is the start of Department Head School and then out to the first Department Head billet.
 
LT360 said:
I noticed all the career progression maps for the SWO options all show 7.5 YCS. Commitment post commissioning from USNA is 5 years correct?
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The USNA pages are simplified. If you really want to dive off the deep end, the SECNAV community briefs walk it out to 28 years, and the individual detailer pages have even more more community-specific guidance.

https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Career-Management/Detailing/Officer/Pers-41-SWO/Detailers/SWO-N/ (link in the center for the SWO(N) Community Brief)

The detailer briefs are definitely made for officers that already know their way around the jargon...not necessarily friendly for MIDN/parents.

This page discusses Conventional SWO, but goes over some of the considerations for career timing: https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Career-Management/Detailing/Officer/Pers-41-SWO/Career-Info/Timing/.

It explains why 7.5 is a significant number for DH school--attending no later than that point ensures an officer has at least one observed, competitive DH FITREP prior to the O-4 selection board.
 
THParent said:
I cannot be the only one here who thinks that is funny, right? That is SO Navy.
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Buzz word and sneaky phrasing are definitely things in the Navy. You might have talents that are “optimized” for a community that’s not your first preference. And if it’s choice #3, then it’s your third most desired, so technically the Navy gets what it needs and you got something you wanted, so everybody wins. Obviously, that’s not how it goes over in real life. I love the Navy, but I think my fellow Sailors and I are well aware of the Navy’s ability to put lipstick on the pig when needed.
 
Usnavy2019 said:
Usually, upwards of 90% get their first or second choice.
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For many years, the Naval Academy has seldom released how many midshipmen got their first choice. They usually phrase it as you have - how many got their first or second choice, lumping those two choices together in order to get an impressive percentage like 90%.

Let's think about that for a moment. Let's take a graduating class of 1,000 (usually it's a bit higher). That means that over 100 midshipmen get their third choice or worse. That is not an insignificant number.

More importantly, one cannot dismiss what it means to get your second choice. It's not as if you're going into an ice cream parlor, looking forward to chocolate chip ice cream, only to find out that it's not available. There are lots of other flavors, however. You might get vanilla instead - or maybe you'll get cookie dough ice cream. You're going to get ice cream and it's not that big of a deal. You'll probably be satisfied. It's highly unlikely that you're going to walk away deeply disappointed.

The service communities can vary quite a bit, however. If a midshipman's first choice is Navy Pilot and he/she ends up with their second choice, Surface Warfare Officer - that's no small matter. Zipping between the clouds at nearly the speed of sound, delivering ordnance, perfecting one's air combat maneuvering (i.e. dogfighting) couldn't possibly be farther away from lumbering through the ocean at 25 knots and serving as Officer of the Deck. The difference between the first and second choice couldn't possibly be starker. They are nothing alike! It's not like the difference between chocolate chip ice cream and vanilla. It's more like the difference between chocolate chip ice cream and brocolli.

I think it's rather disingenuous, and certainly misleading, to lump 1st and 2nd choices together as if it's no big deal. It speaks volumes that the academy is loath to break it down by, how many got their 1st choice, how many got their 2nd choice, etc.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I've long been a critic of how the Naval Academy handles Service Assignment, which used to be called Service Selection - that, alone, speaks volumes. [getting off soapbox]
 
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